Regarding the delineation of comets one topic we have still not discussed is the issue of comet tails. An important matter for comets unless like Manx cats they lack one.

Many traditional authorities mention that one should also look at the sign where a comet's tail is pointing. Astronomically the tail of a comet is usually pointing in the opposite direction from the Sun.

In the case of Lulin the Comet was first discovered at around 15 Scorpio.
The comet is quite unusual as it has been moving against the order of the signs/planets. I perhaps risk being quite naive here astronomically but can we assume from this, this places the tail of the comet facing the tropical sign behind its direction of travel? In which case this means the tail of Lulin was first pointing in the direction of the tropical sign of Sagittarius? Traditional authorities seem to imply the influence of the comet will also be felt in countries associated with the direction of the tail too.

In the case of Lulin the Comet was first discovered at around 15 Scorpio.
The comet is quite unusual as it has been moving against the order of the signs/planets.

If you take Johndro's conception of signrulership, Lulin is an incoming thing, i.e. moving from the domain of Uranus and into the the domain of Saturn. It is truly interesting that the discovery degree of Lulin is on the launching of the Kepler telescope. I think this gives the Kepler project the extra flare.

Hello Andrew,

If you take Johndro's conception of signrulership, Lulin is an incoming thing, i.e. moving from the domain of Uranus and into the the domain of Saturn. It is truly interesting that the discovery degree of Lulin is on the launching of the Kepler telescope. I think this gives the Kepler project the extra flare.

You have totally lost me here. What was Johndro's system of sign rulership? Why is Luilin moving from Uranus to Saturn? I am not sure if this is what you mean but it does seem interesting to examine comet Lulin's last planetary conjunction (or even aspect) before it closely conjuncted Saturn. That does seem an interesting approach to explore.

Regarding 15 Scorpio its worth noting in the modern era it has been quite close to the star Zuben-el-Genubi also known as south scale or the southern claw. Its generally presented as malefic traditionally and of the nature of Mars and Saturn. However, in his book on fixed stars George Noonan claims the star had a very benefic reputation in Babylonian astrology.

Johndro divides the 360 circle into 8, each segment consisting of 45 degrees.

Mercury: 0 Aries - 15 Taurus
Venus: 15 Taurus - 0 Cancer
Mars: 0 Cancer - 15 Leo
Jupiter: 15 Leo - 0 Libra
Saturn: 0 Libra -15 Scorpio
Uranus: 15 Scorpio - 0 Capricorn
Neptune: 0 Capricorn - 15 Aquarius
Pluto: 15 Aquarius - 0 Aries

15 Scorpio is particularly important because it makes the transition from the traditional planets to the outer planets. It is the door between the visable and invisible worlds, or that which is rational and known contrary to that which is not yet discovered.

Nothing new under the Sun - but we might not have discovered it yet!

Johndro divides the 360 circle into 8, each segment consisting of 45 degrees.

Mercury: 0 Aries - 15 Taurus
Venus: 15 Taurus - 0 Cancer
Mars: 0 Cancer - 15 Leo
Jupiter: 15 Leo - 0 Libra
Saturn: 0 Libra -15 Scorpio
Uranus: 15 Scorpio - 0 Capricorn
Neptune: 0 Capricorn - 15 Aquarius
Pluto: 15 Aquarius - 0 Aries

15 Scorpio is particularly important because it makes the transition from the traditional planets to the outer planets. It is the door between the visable and invisible worlds, or that which is rational and known contrary to that which is not yet discovered.

Nothing new under the Sun - but we might not have discovered it yet!

Thank you for clarifying that. I must say I have never heard of this idea before. If you have time could you explain what Johndro's logic is for this system? If not what book does Johndrro set out this approach in?

Regarding your statement on 15 Scorpio I take it from this you work with Johndro's system in practice? Sounds an interesting topic for a thread of its own somewhere!

A New Conception of Sign Rulership - L. Edward Johndro - published by AFA.
Forward by Al H. Morrison 1971

Thanks Andrew,

I will check this out when I get a chance. Its probably too 'mod' for me to actually adopt in practice as I dont generally give the outer planets rulership of anything. Still, its certainly a bit different from simply re-assigning some of the signs modern rulership. It reminds me a bit of Rudhyar's eight phase lunation cycle. Except that the luminaries seem to be left out in this system. I do find that odd so I am intrugued what Johndro's logic is.

Mark

MarkC wrote:
In the case of Lulin the Comet was first discovered at around 15 Scorpio.
The comet is quite unusual as it has been moving against the order of the signs/planets. I perhaps risk being quite naive here astronomically but can we assume from this, this places the tail of the comet facing the tropical sign behind its direction of travel? In which case this means the tail of Lulin was first pointing in the direction of the tropical sign of Sagittarius? Traditional authorities seem to imply the influence of the comet will also be felt in countries associated with the direction of the tail too.

I gave a look to Cardano, who gives a lot of examples about everything.
I don't understand this.
He talks about the real direction of the tail and the stars it touches.
Please don't ask me which are in the case of Lulin
Margherita

Hi Margherita,

I gave a look to Cardano, who gives a lot of examples about everything. I don't understand this. He talks about the real direction of the tail and the stars it touches.

I am not really clear what you mean here

I accept this whole issue may be more complicated.

Thus although the great comet of 1577 appeared in the west , and was principally seen to menance western lands, Tycho Brahe observed that it would also 'spew its venom' over the Muscovites and Tartars in the northeast , for its tail swept in their direction. Hence Tycho suggested Ivan the Terrible might fall from power by 1583.
'' Treatise on the comet of 1577.'', Tycho Brahe

Is Tycho Brahe referring to just the north-east direction in the sky? If the comet was seen to set after the sun in the west ie occidental I presume its tail could be said to be pointing north-eastwards. I haven't read the full translation of this text yet so I am not totally clear. This is just from a snippet of the treastise in Sara J. Schechner's book. She is not an astrologer and although the book is excellent overall her lack of detailed knowledge leaves her discussion of astrological technique quite brief.

However, it occurs to me there is another way to determine the influence of a comet on the world. This is based on the direction on earth derived from the signs and houses of a discovery chart. This approach involves the signs and houses symbolsing the different quarters on earth in the same way lost property is identified in horary. The location of the comet in a chart could indicate where on earth the comet would be most influential.

For example, the sign Scorpio is traditionally assigned the North-East and Libra the west. However, this system can be used with astrological houses too which refines the method.

Generally the system is as follows:

Fire = East
Earth = South
Air = West
Water = North.

In particular, each sign indicates the following:

East ( Aries)
North (Cancer)
West (Libra)
South (Capricorn)
South by East (Taurus)
East by North (Leo)
North by East ( Scorpio)
West by North (Aquarius)
West by South (Gemini)
South by West (Virgo)
East by South (Sagittarius)
North by West (Pisces)


The houses represent the following directions:

1 : East
2 : E-N-E
3 : N-N-E
4 : North
5: N-N-W
6 : W-N-W
7 : West
8 : W-SW
9 : S-S-W
10: South
11 : S-S-E
12 : E-S-E

Good Sunday, Mark,

MarkC wrote:

I gave a look to Cardano, who gives a lot of examples about everything. I don't understand this. He talks about the real direction of the tail and the stars it touches.

I am not really clear what you mean here

Well, I'm not sure I was awake

I accept this whole issue may be more complicated.

no, you should just check where is the tail, not just say that if the comet is in Leo the tail is in Cancer.

Cardano gives an example from Regiomontanus, and he says that a comet was seen in Libra in 1475 between the stars of Virgo.Then he talks about its motion from Libra to Aries. It was a comet very swift so in a day it passed through 4 signs, from Virgo to Gemini. But its tail looked always towards Gemini stars.
It seems in fact that the tail changed its orientation because of the daily motion. Then Cardano (but in practice Regiomontanus) listed the stars the tail touched.
Maybe you should try with an astronomical software.

Thus although the great comet of 1577 appeared in the west , and was principally seen to menance western lands, Tycho Brahe observed that it would also 'spew its venom' over the Muscovites and Tartars in the northeast , for its tail swept in their direction. Hence Tycho suggested Ivan the Terrible might fall from power by 1583.
'' Treatise on the comet of 1577.'', Tycho Brahe

You trust too much in astrologers
Remember what Luther said of their prophecies, and I'm a Catholic I should not quote Luther

Brahe mentions for a reason ar another all the European countries in fact.
According Brahe, Muscovites and Tartars "who lie towards East" are under Sagittarius where the comet firstly appeared because he says that as the Sagittarius is a half human and half animal sign, these people can be compared to this constellation for "their ruination and their deeds of war, and the comet will be bring them a well deserved punishment."

However, it occurs to me there is another way to determine the influence of a comet on the world. This is based on the direction on earth derived from the signs and houses of a discovery chart. This approach involves the signs and houses symbolsing the different quarters on earth in the same way lost property is identified in horary. The location of the comet in a chart could indicate where on earth the comet would be most influential

.
Well, Cardano says that we shall consider in which angle the comet falls, but then he adds that it's very difficult to find when the comet appears and when it disappeares and in fact for this reason Ptolemy dedicated to it so few words
I swear, I can quote the Latin text !
In every case i will give a look to Lilly too, when your conference is ?

no, you should just check where is the tail, not just say that if the comet is in Leo the tail is in Cancer.

Cardano gives an example from Regiomontanus, and he says that a comet was seen in Libra in 1475 between the stars of Virgo.Then he talks about its motion from Libra to Aries. It was a comet very swift so in a day it passed through 4 signs, from Virgo to Gemini. But its tail looked always towards Gemini stars. It seems in fact that the tail changed its orientation because of the daily motion. Then Cardano (but in practice Regiomontanus) listed the stars the tail touched.

That is interesting. So in this case the focus is sidereal in terms of fixed stars the tail points to? Why only fixed stars to the tail though and not the coma?

Clearly, some comets (like Lulin) do move quite swiftly. Moreover some move in very curved orbits which will change the direction of the tail. Comet Holmes that exploded into a magnitude of 2.5 in October 2007 did a complete semi- arc of the constellation of Perseus. Comet Lulin is very unusual due to its extremely close proximity to the plane of the ecliptic. It does seem astrologers in the past would track the movement of a comet closely for any such changes such as direction of travel of the comet.

There does seem to have been some variety on how the direction of the tail was delineated though. The direction of the tail linked to countries is by no means limited to Tycho Brahe.

For example:

'A Star with a beard, or long tayl..denotes the death of great and noble men, and wars in those countries unto which it points its tayl''. John Gadbury, De Cometis, 1665.

Maybe you should try with an astronomical software.

Good idea. Any recommendation on any software suitable for working with comets? Studying astronomy websites comets it seems apparent comets are very tricky critters even for professional astronomers to predict.

I give my talk this wednesday. However, I have definitely got the comet bug now so I see my relationship with comets as a long term astrological relationship rather than a one night fling!

One other issue I wouldn't mind discussing is the astrological interpretation of comets based on their duration of visibility and magnitude. In his book 'England's Prophetical Merlin' Lilly implies a 'day for a year' approach where a comet (or Nova) have a year of astrological influence for each day they are visible.

This would mean bright 'Great Comets' like Hale-Bopp that was visible for a record breaking 18 months would have an astrological influence for over 500 years! Similarly, extremely bright Nova observed in the constellation of Cassiopieia by Tycho Brahe in 1572 into 1573 was naked eye visible (and then some!) for a full 16 months. On that that basis it has still not exhausted its astrological influence.

Have you come across any any references like this anywhere else in relation to comets or Nova?

MarkC wrote: That is interesting. So in this case the focus is sidereal in terms of fixed stars the tail points to? Why only fixed stars to the tail though and not the coma?

What does it mean "sidereal" ?
You should open an astronomical software and see where is the comet, that's all.
Anyway it's easier to say than to do, I understand.
And why you are considering just stars crossed by the comet tail? I mentioned the example from Regiomontanus (in Cardano) just for what he said about the tail.

It does seem astrologers in the past would track the movement of a comet closely for any such changes such as direction of travel of the comet.

For what I understood it's the exact reason why Cardano cuts a long story short and says that Ptolemy gives no such importance, because it was difficult to delineate where the comet was, and when and which direction it travelled...I was sure you believed I was inventing the quote by Cardano
Next time I will add Latinorum, as we call it from Manzoni masterpiece

There does seem to have been some variety on how the direction of the tail was delineated though. The direction of the tail linked to countries is by no means limited to Tycho Brahe.

Well, you are copying my theory here. When I wrote that a Renaissance astrologer could write something different from another one?

Good idea. Any recommendation on any software suitable for working with comets? Studying astronomy websites comets it seems apparent comets are very tricky critters even for professional astronomers to predict.

Well, I don't exactly buy everything I have.
In every case I have Starry Nights, but it was wrong on Halley comet of 1301 as Eddy showed.

I give my talk this wednesday. However, I have definitely got the comet bug now so I see my relationship with comets as a long term astrological relationship rather than a one night fling!

I'm waiting to see your article, obviously.

Lilly seems to imply a sort of 'day for a year' approach where a comet (or Nova) have a year of astrological influence for each day they are visible.

Well, I found Lilly quote in the pamphlet about the comet, but I discarded for the nova, because it was visible for more than 1 year.
And I've my personal theory about forecasts and prophecies,as about everything obviously
Margherita