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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I never use Declaration charts. |
Each to their own. There is always an issue about whether the legal or ceremonial/public time should take precedence. Its identical to the discussion we had about the US Presidential Innauguration.
| Quote: | | I meant "Ascendant." I was talking about the eclipse of the 26th January. If I'm not wrong in casting the chart the eclipse falls near the Ascendant - so according Ptolemy it will give its effects in 4 months. Moreover it was visible from Australia so effective. |
Oh you mean a chart located to Australia for the eclipse? I see now. Is that a traditional approach too? What about the nearest Ingress chart?
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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I would tend to think that perhaps Schmidt has translated the Greek correctly using the word "sallow". Our modern English definition of it referring to the unhealthy skin colour of an ashen pale yellow comes from its original useage to the common European willow. The Latin origin is salix.
The common willow has clusters of pollen called catkin which always appear before the leaves do. When studied they are a very translucent pale green tinged with yellow. Anyone who has studied art or even graphic design can tell you that yellow is a secondary colour which is the result of the combination of the two primary colours red and green. Therefore, depending on the intensity of green, yellow will have a "greenish" hue, especially when in the lower intensity ranges. I imagine when describing the comet's colour it may have reminded the early greeks of the colour and shape of the catkin found in the common European variety of willow! Thus to describe it as "sallow" would be quite correct in the context of the ancient meaning of "sallow". Knowing Schmidt's knowledge of etymology I rather think that is why he used the word. Whether that was the wisest choice for most readers is debateable! |
Hello Steven,
Thanks very much for that. Clearly the translators life is not an easy one... 
Hi Margherita,
| Quote: | | She writes me that "clwroteroj is the comparative for clwroj which means green/yellow and so greenish. The absolute comparative is done with "rather..." so the sentence becomes rather greenish. I believe it's not a strong green but a green shading in whitish/yellow. " |
So from this does this mean the medieval use of the word ceruleus is really a poor rendering? Was the original Greek ever meant to include the possibility of blue comets?
Another point is that away from astrological theory the colour of comets for naked eye observers is often more ambiguous. For example what colour do you see comet McNaught as in these photos?
http://msowww.anu.edu.au/~rmn/C2006P1new.htm
It looks quite golden/orange to me. Looking at Margherita's blog description of the text by Pseudo-Ptolemy I am assuming this comes under the type of comet described as follows:
| Quote: | | The one called Rosa, it’s large and round, it has an human face and its color is similar to silver mixed with gold. When it appears it signifies death for kings and rich men, and condition of the world change for the better. |
Going to Hephaistio of Thebes we have this similar possibility:
| Quote: | | There is another comet, rose-like and great and circular, and it is called midwife, having the face of a maiden, having its rays golden in the circle of the head, sweet in aspect, similar in colour to the mixture of silver and gold, and it signifies the cutting down of men and the change of matters for the better and a quittance for those who have lain down together. |
There again Comet McNaught was noted for being extremely bright but difficult to observe due to its proximity to the Sun. Going back to Pseudo-Ptolemy we have this option:
| Quote: | | The one called Veru looks dreadful: it’s always near the Sun and brings the alteration of fruit trees and products of the land and death for kings and rich men. |
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Last edited by Mark on Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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margherita
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: |
So from this does this mean the medieval use of the word ceruleus is really a poor rendering? Was the original Greek ever meant to include the possibility of blue comets? |
My friend is very impressive, true? I was sure she could tell a clear word about it.
I don't believe that Ephaestio was the source for comets, he was just repeating a well known text. He writes around 400 AD, true?
He is like Cardano or Lilly, they work with what they received from tradition.
Then about ceruleus I don't know. Here we need some latinist or medievalist.
Surely the sword comets are pale in their origin, we saw in Plinius. Then they became like a latex in Ephestio.
My friend used the same word Steven used, but I could not find a better translation so I translated whitish.
Surely Schidmt understands the same thing my friend understood.
How this became deep blue or green I have no idea, but it is like that already in Pseudo Ptolemy, Grosseteste or Bonatti, this we know.
| Quote: | | Clearly the translators life is not an easy one.. |
Yes, this is my theory. This is the exact reason why I tend to discard who has not an academical background.
I had quarrels on quarrels about this point.
You can trust in whoever but I have some experience in what is a classical education and what it is not.
See for example, Anton translates "green" and stop, and my friend Lucia who has a proper education (and degree) what you read above.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | I meant "Ascendant." I was talking about the eclipse of the 26th January. If I'm not wrong in casting the chart the eclipse falls near the Ascendant - so according Ptolemy it will give its effects in 4 months. Moreover it was visible from Australia so effective. |
Oh you mean a chart located to Australia for the eclipse? I see now. Is that a traditional approach too? What about the nearest Ingress chart? |
It's because in CieloeTerra they follow Ptolemy the Great and his prophet Placido  while in AngloSaxon world you prefer Albumasar.
Anyway for me they are both shining names, I have no preferences.
In every case as usually according Ptolemy if every fact on the Earth depends on Sun and the Moon, obviously the eclipse is a moment of crisis.
Then Ptolemy - but I'm sure you will find in Lilly too - gives some indications. firstly the eclipse should be visible. And Australia was one of the countries where this last eclipse was visible.
Second, time of effects. Ptolemy is clear (let's say more or less) about this. It depends on the distance of the eclipse from the angles.
I wrote a little example in my blog for Bolshevik Revolution some months ago in my blog, following Cardano comment to Ptolemy chapter:
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/all-power-to-the-soviets/
In every case Marco Fumagalli wrote a wonderful article about eclipses, surely better than mine, as soon as it is translated I will tell you.
Now I'm out (at work in theory) so I cannot check with Solar Fire the Australian eclipse.
Yesterday I gave a quick look and it seemed to at the Ascendant, but sometimes Solar Fire it's a little tricky, so I should wait to come back at home to check.
margherita
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margherita
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Gjiada wrote: |
Now I'm out (at work in theory) so I cannot check with Solar Fire the Australian eclipse.
Yesterday I gave a quick look and it seemed to at the Ascendant, but sometimes Solar Fire it's a little tricky, so I should wait to come back at home to check. |
No, it switched the city, I had this doubt this morning in fact. The eclipse is near the descendant, in the 7th house.
In this case it does not fit with fires 
Margherita
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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Margherita,
| Quote: | | My friend is very impressive, true? I was sure she could tell a clear word about it. |
Awesome. I bow down in complete admiration to classics scholars on such matters.  There is no doubt what we really need in traditional astrology is more people with good understanding of Latin and Greek. You may not regard yourself as a classicist on Latin but remember in the land of the blind the one eyed woman is Queen.... 
| Quote: | I don't believe that Ephaestio was the source for comets, he was just repeating a well known text. He writes around 400 AD, true?
He is like Cardano or Lilly, they work with what they received from tradition. |
Not so sure about that. Yes Hepahiaisto's Apotelesmatics is dated about 380 AD. Contemporary to Firmicus so I accept a later hellenistic source. However I need more time to properly study the sources to reach a firm view. I posted some more comments above while you were posting. Surely you see the similarity between Hephaistio and Pseudo-Ptolemy in the quotes given for Comet McNaught? When do you date Pseudo-Ptolemy on Comets from?
| Quote: | | It's because in CieloeTerra they follow Ptolemy the Great and his prophet Placido while in AngloSaxon world you prefer Albumasar. |
Its probably more to do with my ignorance of traditional authorities on this issue generally. I am not sure if the English speaking world favours Arabic sources like Abu' Mashar over Ptolemy as you suggest. Gosh the idea of Placidus as an astrological 'prophet' is quite scarey! By the way please dont lump us all together as Anglo-Saxons. 
| Quote: | In every case as usually according Ptolemy if every fact on the Earth depends on Sun and the Moon, obviously the eclipse is a moment of crisis. Then Ptolemy - but I'm sure you will find in Lilly too - gives some indications. firstly the eclipse should be visible. And Australia was one of the countries where this last eclipse was visible. Second, time of effects. Ptolemy is clear (let's say more or less) about this. It depends on the distance of the eclipse from the angles.
I wrote a little example in my blog for Bolshevik Revolution some months ago in my blog, following Cardano comment to Ptolemy chapter:
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/all-power-to-the-soviets/ |
Ok I need to look at Eclipse charts then. I have tended up to now to incorporate an eclipse with a national chart or an Ingress chart. I haven't given much consideration to a specfic chart for an eclipse itself. Thanks for the suggestion. What Ptolemy says about only visible eclipses having an effect makes sense to me. Still, this is an empirical issue not just a philosophical one. I need to test this theory of Ptolemy out more. I found it interesting what Yuzuru said, on another thread, about finding eclipses having an effect in mundane charts where the eclipse cannot be seen.
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Edward de Bono
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yuzuru
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I found it interesting what Yuzuru said on another thread about finding eclipses having an effect even in mundane charts are in places wherte the eclipse cannot be seen. |
Well at least is my experience
By instance, erect the eclipse chart of january for stutgard
then see in which degree was mars in the day of the shootings.
It is not good for prediction but it works almost every time
And the eclipse was not visible in germany
Best regards
Y
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margherita
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: | | You may not regard yourself as a classicist on Latin but remember in the land of the blind the one eyed woman is Queen.... |
Well to be honest I have a degree in Economics
In every case it's just I'm accustomed to the fact that in Italy all the Latin, MiddleAges and Renaissance astrological texts have been translated inside Academic world, so I know when the translation is good or not.
And I know people too...
| Quote: | | Surely you see the similarity between Hephaistio and Pseudo-Ptolemy in the quotes given for Comet McNaught? When do you date Pseudo-Ptolemy on Comets from? |
Yes but what about Johannes Lidus for example?
I have the wicked idea that Ephaestio was quoted just because it was in note in Arcana Mundi....
Moreover Bezza translates Ephastio in the note like "giallastro", yellowish.
I did not remember this yesterday, but now I opened the book to check the date and I saw the notes.
In every case Pseudo Ptolemaus is later, I believe that version comes from Grosseteste, so around 1000.
| Quote: | | I am not sure if the English speaking world favours Arabic sources like Abu' Mashar over Ptolemy as you suggest. |
Well, I'm comparing with Cieloeterra.
| Quote: |
I need to test this theory of Ptolemy out more. I found it interesting what Yuzuru said, on another thread, about finding eclipses having an effect in mundane charts where the eclipse cannot be seen. |
I was sure that Yuzuru would reply to this 
Anyway I see that many of you - all skilled astrologers - compare the eclipse chart with some other chart, so surely it works.
I'm not so blind adept to Ptolemy or his prophet
Margherita
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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Moreover Bezza translates Ephastio in the note like "giallastro", yellowish. I did not remember this yesterday, but now I opened the book to check the date and I saw the notes. |
Useful to know. thanks
| Quote: | Yes but what about Johannes Lidus for example?
I have the wicked idea that Ephaestio was quoted just because it was in note in Arcana Mundi.... |
I have no idea
This is the early 6th century Byzantine writer known as Joannes Laurentius Lydus? Sorry I do not understand your reference here. Did he write on comets? What is the Arcana Mundi?
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yuzuru
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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well at this point I'm thinking to write an article for our Italian journal or maybe a lecture if someone ask me:) |
Good plan. Just wish I could understand Italian.
I would certainly love to read anything you produce if you are kind enough to translate it into English. 
I am sure you have made many people here aware how the art of delineating comets is almost totally lost in modern astrology. I looked at one website ( I will not name it) where the astrologer interpreted comet Lulin as implying greater International harmony because it was a joint discovery between China and Tawain. 
I mean how lame is that in terms of astrological technique?
Incidentally, just realised my analysis of the Australian charts was a bit flawed as I was thinking of Comet Lulin moving with the order of the signs rather than against zodiacal order.  Old habits die hard.
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margherita
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| yuzuru wrote: | | Quote: | | I was sure that Yuzuru would reply to this Smile |
I will try to be less predictable next time
 |
It's just I cast an horary before writing my comment so I could guess
Margherita
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margherita
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: |
This is the early 6th century Byzantine writer known as Joannes Laurentius Lydus? Sorry I do not understand your reference here. Did he write on comets? |
It seems like that, in De Ostentis.
| Quote: | | What is the Arcana Mundi? |
Giuseppe Bezza, Arcana Mundi: Antologia Del Pensiero Astrologico Antico (Milano: Biblioteca Universale Rizzoli, 1995).
A compilation of astrological texts, the greatest part taken from manuscripts- from Hellenism to Renaissance.
Moreover out of print now.
For some strange coincidence the pages about Pseudo-Ptolemaus (the manuscript is in Paris) have in note Hephaestio text and translation.
Anyway it's difficult to say if Hephaestio was the first author to attach planets to comets. Lydus wrote a little later.
In every case surely they were not the first astrologers to mention comets.
Margherita
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Mark
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It seems like that, in De Ostentis. |
So have you read this yourself?
| Quote: | | Giuseppe Bezza, Arcana Mundi: Antologia Del Pensiero Astrologico Antico (Milano: Biblioteca Universale Rizzoli, 1995). A compilation of astrological texts, the greatest part taken from manuscripts- from Hellenism to Renaissance. Moreover out of print now. For some strange coincidence the pages about Pseudo-Ptolemaus (the manuscript is in Paris) have in note Hephaestio text and translation. |
Ok now I dont feel bad that I had no idea what you were talking about.
| Quote: | | Anyway it's difficult to say if Hephaestio was the first author to attach planets to comets. Lydus wrote a little later. In every case surely they were not the first astrologers to mention comets. |
I have no idea if Hephaistio was the first astrologer to write about the shape and colour of comets. It seems highly unlikely considering he was writing in the late 4th century. However, I am not aware of any earlier astrological discussion of this area in depth. Are you? It seems probable the earlier astrological sources that influenced Hephaistio were lost over time.
Incidentally, what did you think of my earlier comments on comet McNaught? Would you agree on the attribution of comet type I suggested from Hephaistio/Pseudo-Ptolemy?
Mark
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margherita
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Mark,
| MarkC wrote: | | So have you read this yourself? |
No, I have just the mention and the reference. Lydus wrote in Greek.
I believe it is translated in Italian, but I have not.
| Quote: | | Ok now I dont feel bad that I had no idea what you were talking about. |
You asked me what is Arcana Mundi and I gave you the reference.
| Quote: | | However, I am not aware of any earlier astrological discussion of this area in depth. Are you? It seems probable the earlier astrological sources that influenced Hephaistio were lost over time. |
I don't understand what you mean by astrological sources and what not.
Ptolemy mentions comets and the same Manilius. And Latin writers mention Petosiris as a reference for comets.
Clearly Pliny was the authority on the subjiect. Everybody repeated his classification till the begininning of modern age, Hevelius writes at the end of 1600 .
For example as we saw together the Sword comet in Haephestio was exactly like it was in Plinius, yellowish and pale.
In my opinion there is plenty of literature about omen and comets before Haephestio, anyway I'm not the expert.
| Quote: | | Incidentally, what did you think of my earlier comments on comet McNaught? Would you agree on the attribution of comet type I suggested from Hephaistio/Pseudo-Ptolemy? |
Yes, it makes sense to me. It looks like an human face
margherita
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Mark
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I don't understand what you mean by astrological sources and what not. Ptolemy mentions comets and the same Manilius. And Latin writers mention Petosiris as a reference for comets. Clearly Pliny was the authority on the subjiect. Everybody repeated his classification till the begininning of modern age, Hevelius writes at the end of 1600 .
For example as we saw together the Sword comet in Haephestio was exactly like it was in Plinius, yellowish and pale. In my opinion there is plenty of literature about omen and comets before Haephestio, anyway I'm not the expert. |
Well Ptolemy says very little about the shape and colour of comets in Tetrabiblos. I accept Pliny influenced later astrologers but I was discussing only hellenistic astrologers writing on comets regarding their shape and colour. Pliny was not an astrologer..agreed? However, I have not looked at Firmicus. Sounds worth exploring.
| Quote: | | Yes, it makes sense to me. It looks like an human face |
You wouldn't be teasing by any chance?
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