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kerenhappuch
Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 376
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Our astrology is based on the path of one sun and its power of night and day through its diurnal motion. |
Not to mention the fundamental principle that light is power! Well said, Kirk.
I sympathise with those who are "turned off" by Frawley's apparently overtly religious viewpoint, which is reflected in the recently posted introduction. However, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Frawley has his own religious views, finds these reflected in astrology, and of course his writing reflects this. And yet, this makes him no different from any other writer on any other topic!
I hope that an author's values or personal beliefs do not stop others, myself included, from reading a book. We're rational adults who are quite capable of reading a variety of material and making up our own minds. If people are taking Frawley's word as gospel, unquestioned simply because he wrote it, then that is surely their fault, not Frawley's.
It's not a crime to admit to a religious or spiritual belief. In fact, I have a lot of empathy with the religious framework and viewpoints advanced in both Frawley's work and - not forgetting its full title! - Lilly's Christian Astrology. Given what astrology actually is, and the way it is used, I think that it is in fact much more appropriate to put this into the context of some spiritual belief system than to attempt to place it in a purely scientific or materialistic context.
The tone of the introduction posted here was overtly religious, and yes, Frawley may have a particular axe to grind when it comes to religion. But let's not dismiss his books entirely just because of this. If we're dismissing Frawley on the basis of religion, we'd have to dismiss Lilly too, at the very least! Instead we should approach the material as we would approach any other text - mindful of the underlying bias of the author, striving constantly to make up our own minds as to the value of what we are reading.
*waves white flag and calls for peace!*
Keren
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delaforge
Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you to Eddy for details of the chart for the foundation of St Peter's Basilica, Rome, and to Margherita for confirming these details.
Like yuzuru, I am keen to learn from past experts in the art of making elections through the study of reliable election charts. I have problems with the data available in this case, however.
Not only do we have to possible dates - 17th & 18th April - but also two possible times, both given in a form modern scholarship doesn't seem totally certain how to interpret.
The chart set for 9.21 am, kindly supplied by Margherita, seems doubtful to me. Certainly, the ascendant ruler, Moon, is in the 9th house of religion in aspect with Jupiter, significator of religion - all very well for the founding of a church. But the aspect is (a) an opposition and (b) separating. In addition, three malefic influences - Mars, Saturn and the South Node - are in the second house. As Margherita points out, this is considered disastrous from the point of view of financing a building project. Surely no astrologer would have set an election with this trio in the second house.
I find it hard to accept that this is a genuine example of an election, though I'm prepared to be corrected. If there is anything to be learnt about the art of election from this chart, and anyone on the forum knows what that is, would they please be so good as to share the information with the rest of us, possibly in a separate, or new, thread?
Delaforge |
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margherita
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 846
Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| delaforge wrote: |
The chart set for 9.21 am, kindly supplied by Margherita, seems doubtful to me. Certainly, the ascendant ruler, Moon, is in the 9th house of religion in aspect with Jupiter, significator of religion - all very well for the founding of a church. But the aspect is (a) an opposition and (b) separating. In addition, three malefic influences - Mars, Saturn and the South Node - are in the second house. As Margherita points out, this is considered disastrous from the point of view of financing a building project. Surely no astrologer would have set an election with this trio in the second house.
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Hello,
The chart I copied comes directly from Tractatus Astrologicus and the comment is of the same Gaurico.
Maybe it was not an election, but the day was arranged to the Pope for other reasons, 18th April is very near the 21st which since antiquity was known as the foundation date of Rome.
The author of the paper gives her opinion about the chart and says this chart was in some agreement with Jesus horoscope. Anyway I don't agree 
The version with Libra Ascendant was given by Cardano and Gaurico was older. Gaurico should know better the traditional version of Jesus horoscope, the one with the first facie of the Virgo rising. Albumasar in fact had written that in the first facie of Virgo arose a Virgo feeding a child and this idea was very influential till Cardano reform of astrology.
I'm not convinced by MacGrath opinion, anyway this is just my idea.
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Last edited by margherita on Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Keren,
| Quote: | | It's not a crime to admit to a religious or spiritual belief. In fact, I have a lot of empathy with the religious framework and viewpoints advanced in both Frawley's work and - not forgetting its full title! - Lilly's Christian Astrology. Given what astrology actually is, and the way it is used, I think that it is in fact much more appropriate to put this into the context of some spiritual belief system than to attempt to place it in a purely scientific or materialistic context. |
I fully accept all authors have their stance on religion like everyone else. It would be artificial to expect all references to religion to be taken out of an astrological work. In many cases its integral to a person’s world view of which astrology forms only a part. Its important to acknowledge many of the great astrologers of the past were very religious and this inevitably came into their work for example Vettius Valens, Bonatti, Al Biruni, Ibn Ezra or William Lilly. I personally think an astrology with no spiritual perspective is rather meaningless.
| Quote: | | The tone of the introduction posted here was overtly religious, and yes, Frawley may have a particular axe to grind when it comes to religion. But let's not dismiss his books entirely just because of this. If we're dismissing Frawley on the basis of religion, we'd have to dismiss Lilly too, at the very least! |
I was not dismissing Frawley on the basis of his religious faith. Instead I was questioning his highly subjective version of astrological history. This seemed to be motivated by a quite crude attempt to manipulate history to fit his own religious viewpoint exclusively. I am sure lots of people sharing Frawley’s particular faith would not agree with his version of history. While Lilly expressed his personal religious beliefs he never once suggested authors like Ptolemy or Dorotheus were not part of the astrological tradition because they were not monotheistic.
Frankly, I think Frawley’s position is complete nonsense and doesn’t stand up to examination by any intelligent person who has studied this subject. The only people that could agree with him are those totally ignorant of history or those equally determined to propogate an exclusively monotheistic version of astrological history.
| Quote: | | Instead we should approach the material as we would approach any other text - mindful of the underlying bias of the author, striving constantly to make up our own minds as to the value of what we are reading. |
I agree. I have all of John Frawley’s books (except Sports Astrology). I have never suggested not reading his books. Quite the contrary. He can be a very stimulating author when he sticks to astrology. He has his faults of course. You seldom see sources quoted in his books so it is very difficult to know where the traditional technique ends and Frawley begins in his writing.
However, his increasingly strident attempt to link astrological history to his particular faith exclusively smacks more of religious propaganda and than astrology to me.
A traditional approach to astrology which denies its hellenistic and bablylonian roots is impossible. Its like suggesting my definition of a table doesn't need to have any legs. |
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Deb
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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To be honest, I thought the point that members would find most interesting, and which ought to be known, is that JF has revised his views on temperament. However,
| Quote: | | Nor is it true that anything written a long time ago is part of that tradition. The western tradition of astrology is a monotheistic tradition. It is the astrology of the Jews, the Christians, and the Moslems. As such, it stands over and against any astrology rooted in relativism. Egyptian astrology; Hellenistic astrology; Vedic astrology; the astrology generally practised today: these are not part of the western tradition of astrology, and, because of the philosophies within which they are framed, have far more in common with each other than they do with that tradition. |
This does seem a strange comment to me. The drive towards monotheism is implicit in most astrological texts, especially the Hellenistic texts which dwell upon the stoic philosophy of everything being connected under one universal will. We see it directly in passages such as the following from Manilius Astronomica (c. 10 AD).
| Quote: | | For I shall sing of God, silent-minded monarch of nature who, permeating sky and land and sea, controls with uniform compact the mighty structure; how the entire universe is alive in the mutual concord of its elements and is driven by the pulse of reason since a single spirit dwells in all its parts and, speeding through all things, nourishes the world and shapes it like a living creature.2.60 |
| Quote: | | Thus everything is organised throughout the whole world and follows a master. This God, and the Reason that controls everything, brings down from the heavenly stars the creatures of the Earth. Though the stars are very distant and remote, he makes us feel their influence.... 2.80 |
This is monotheism is it not? And it is the reason why the Christian Church has traditionally held a very tolerant attitude towards the philosophical basis of astrology. (Hence the reason why Popes could use astrology).
In the same passage Manilius talks about “This God, and the all-controlling reason” which compels us to recognize its influence through the signs of heaven.
Whether we are compelled or impelled is really the deeper philosophical issue that had to be delicately handled by the church fathers. I don't think the monotheistic issue ever caused any real problems, because Christianity borrowed just as heavily from Stoicism as astrology did. |
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Deb,
That’s a fair point about the presence and increasing influence of monotheistic ideas in the classical era before the complete ascendancy of Christianity.
However, the way classical texts were often interpreted and presented by later writers often meant the nuances of these texts original philosophical stance were often distorted to make them more acceptable to a Christian, Islamic or Judaic audience. See for example the way Aristotle was treated by Christian theologians.
It can be rather misleading to make assumptions with words like ‘god’ from our modern perspective. For example the Stoics and Neo-Platonists talked about ‘god’ but their philosophy was more accurately described as monism rather than monotheism. Neo-Platonist and Neo-Pythagorean ideas also incorporated concepts like reincarnation which we associate more as an ‘eastern’ religious belief today. Moreover, my reading of hermetic texts seems to indicate their position was better described as dualistic in a similar way to later Gnosticism. All these ideas and many more would have infused astrology in this era. In short, the religious climate was very plural in the first few centuries after the first millennia AD when horoscopic astrology was developing in the Hellenistic and Roman world. |
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Deb
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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You are right to point out that monism is the better term for what I am talking about - thank you. Stoicism was only one of the many philosophies that expressed monism, but it is the link between stoicism - which is so strong in Hellenistic astrology, and Christianity that I think needs to be accepted (although I am not by any means claiming that astrology is a 'Christian teaching'! One of the reasons why I like the philosophy of astrology so much is because it is a place where many different faiths can meet).
But just to clarify the point I am making, according to E.V. Arnold in The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, Stoicism paved the way for Christianity because:
| Quote: | | From the 3rd century onwards Stoicism was rapidly absorbed in Christianity. A youth nurtured in Stoic principles rebelled against the continuance of animal sacrifices, and submitted gladly to the authority of a ‘wise man’ visible in the flesh… It is greatly desired that modern Christian Theologians should be equipped with a better knowledge of the philosophy which more than any other was a nursing-mother to the church ... |
Here we have an independent authority commenting on the continuation of the philosophical tradition that John Frawley denies. Misunderstanding of this is the reason why there is so much confusion over whether Firmicus was a pagan, or a stoic, or a Christian, when actually what he wrote could be claimed by all of these. |
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GR
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 281
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Deb wrote: | To be honest, I thought the point that members would find most interesting, and which ought to be known, is that JF has revised his views on temperament.
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You must be unpleasantly surprised then. 
| Deb wrote: |
This is monotheism is it not?
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I'd say no. It is definitely speaking of a Creator of all things who we can call God. In Plato's Timaeus, for example, the Creator is the creator of the gods and only indirectly the creator of mankind.
| Timaeus wrote: |
Now, when all of them, both those who visibly appear in their revolutions as well as those other gods who are of a more retiring nature, had come into being, the creator of the universe addressed them in these words: "Gods, children of gods, who are my works, and of whom I am the artificer and father, my creations are indissoluble, if so I will. All that is bound may be undone, but only an evil being would wish to undo that which is harmonious and happy. Wherefore, since ye are but creatures, ye are not altogether immortal and indissoluble, but ye shall certainly not be dissolved, nor be liable to the fate of death, having in my will a greater and mightier bond than those with which ye were bound at the time of your birth. And now listen to my instructions:-Three tribes of mortal beings remain to be created-without them the universe will be incomplete, for it will not contain every kind of animal which it ought to contain, if it is to be perfect. On the other hand, if they were created by me and received life at my hands, they would be on an equality with the gods. In order then that they may be mortal, and that this universe may be truly universal, do ye, according to your natures, betake yourselves to the formation of animals, imitating the power which was shown by me in creating you. The part of them worthy of the name immortal, which is called divine and is the guiding principle of those who are willing to follow justice and you-of that divine part I will myself sow the seed, and having made a beginning, I will hand the work over to you. And do ye then interweave the mortal with the immortal, and make and beget living creatures, and give them food, and make them to grow, and receive them again in death." |
| Deb wrote: |
And it is the reason why the Christian Church has traditionally held a very tolerant attitude towards the philosophical basis of astrology. (Hence the reason why Popes could use astrology).
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That's not quite true either. Popes could get away with it, of course; who's going to tell them otherwise? In that period, popes got away with having wives and children! If anything, it was the long legacy of nobles in the West that kept astrology alive, as they had their own considerably more martial powerbase, and to them astrology was something they could use to protect and expand their power.
| Deb wrote: |
Whether we are compelled or impelled is really the deeper philosophical issue that had to be delicately handled by the church fathers.
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And with the exception of Origen (and probably a few others), the considered opinion was that astrology didn't work, and if it did work, it was simply the result of demons the astrologer had working for them.
| Deb wrote: |
I don't think the monotheistic issue ever caused any real problems, because Christianity borrowed just as heavily from Stoicism as astrology did. |
Both Chrisitianity and astrology probably have more then a little Platonic philisophy as well, if not more then they have Stoicism. Hell, the Stoics were borrowing from Plato too; but then again, in those days, people were much freer with their borrowings that would be considered permissible or prudent now.
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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And with the exception of Origen (and probably a few others), the considered opinion was that astrology didn't work, and if it did work, it was simply the result of demons the astrologer had working for them. |
I dont think that is quite correct. Even Augstine of Hippo who was probably the strongest critic of astrology in early Christianity criticises astrology not because he doesn't think it works but because it leaves the astrologer open to influence of evil spirits! He does use the argument of twins against astrology but I get the view its more to discourage people away from such practises.
In the medieval period Thomas Aquinas is willing to accept the validity of astrology for things like medicine and weather forecasting. However, he is opposed to its use for natal astrology as it denies the free will of the individual from his perspective.
In both the case of Augustine and Aquinas the concern seems more about the potential spiritual effects of relying on astrology rather than its actual effeciveness.
Last edited by Mark on Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GR
Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: |
I dont think that is quite correct. Even Augstine of Hippo who was probably the strongest critic of astrology criticises astrology not because he doesn't think it works but because it leaves the astrologer open to influence of evil spirits! He does use the argument of twins but I get the view its more to discourage people away from such practises.
In the medieval period Thomas Aquinas is willing to accept the validity of astrology for things like medicine and weather forecasting. However, he is opposed to its use for natal astrology as it denies the free will of the individual from his perspective. |
Thanks! I was thinking I missed something here, I just sometimes lose perspective on this particular topic.
But then we have stuff like this http://www.catholic.com/library/Astrology.asp
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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Gabe,
Very interesting quotes!
However, I think the main condemnation of astrology would be restricted to its use for natal or divinatory work. In this period astronomy and astrology were regarded as synonymous so it would have been seen as quite 'scientific' to use astrology in medicine or weather forecasting.
We see the last stage of the process of Christian ascendancy and the end of the classical world when the Neoplatonic Academy in Athens was closed by order of the Byzantine Emperor of Justinian in the year 529 AD. There is no doubt when identified with paganism astrologers could find themselves persecuted.
The spread of astrology from Byzantium to Persia has been interpreted by some historians as a response to the persecution of astrology in the Eastern Empire during the 6th century. However, I would imagine the problem was more pagan astrologers than astrology itself.
To adapt to the new Christian world astrologers had no choice but to adopt the religious language acceptable to the Christian world view. Increasingly this would not have been disingenuous on their part as most of these astrologers would be Christian themselves anyway.
Moreover I suspect things were somewhat more tolerant than these quotes imply. For example astrology continued to be practised in Byzantium right up until the fall of Constantinople in 1453. However, the conservatism of Byzantine astrology may well reflect the pressure of possible persecution it continually faced if astrologers appeared to clash with Christian teachings. From what I can establish astrology in Byzantium followed very closely the earlier astrology of the hellenistic world despite the changing religious world view of the Eastern Empire. This continuinty seems another argument undermining John Frawley's rigid demarcation of hellenistic and Christian astrology.
The lack of continuous state control in the west following the fall of the western empire with the barbarian invasions created a more conducive environment for astrology in the long term when classical learning was rediscovered. By the time these texts were rediscovered from the Islamic world the west was fully Christian and pagan ideas no longer posed a real threat to the supremacy of the Church the way they did to the Eastern Church in the late classical era. I assume that is why medieval theologians like Thomas Aquinas were less hostile to astrology than the earlier Church fathers. Hence we see Popes with their own astrologers and sometimes practising the art themselves. These facts seem to be conveniently forgotten by some modern religious writers within the Roman Catholic tradition. |
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yuzuru
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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About temperament:
Hah, I said for years that the example of Hitler was clearly a mistake, when compared to other things he wrote, but people kept looking for "deeper meaning"
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My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com |
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margherita
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 846
Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| yuzuru wrote: | About temperament:
Hah, I said for years that the example of Hitler was clearly a mistake, when compared to other things he wrote, but people kept looking for "deeper meaning"
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This confirms to me more and more that one should always think with his/her own brain
Margherita
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Kirk,
Sorry, I completely missed your earlier post.
You have taken issue with my statement below:
| Quote: | | It is undeniable that astrology existed in an increasingly Christian Empire in both the East and West. However, this came long after ther astrological tradition had taken root. |
In particular your comment:
| Quote: | | Not particularly. It looks like Western astrology wasn't all that old during the lifetime of Christ. As far as historical eras go, Christianity and Western astrology – the astrology we now know and use –coincide quite closely. |
I think you are confusing two things here. The life of Christ and the ascendancy of Christianity as the dominant faith in the Empire. The latter took literally hundreds of years to occur
Its clear all of the early astrologers were not Christian. In fact the whole astrological tradition of signs, houses, aspects, dignities, sect theory all developed before Christinaity became a significant social force in the Empire.
What religious beliefs we do find evidence of in early hellenistic astrology indicate these astrologers were mostly neo-platonists, neo-pythagoreans , hermeticists or followed various mystery cults. Focusing on Alexandria , the birthplace of hellenistic astrology there is no evidence of Christian beliefs whatsoever amongst the early hellenistic astrologers. Firmicus writing in the 4th century AD is the first astrological source that might have been Christian but there is no certainty on this point.
Its was not until the 4th century AD that Christianity began to emerge as the dominant faith of the Empire after Emperor Constantine began to officially favour Christianitty over pagan beliefs. There was a major counter-revolution to Constantine's Christianity with the pagan Emperor Julian. His death in 363AD marked the passing of the last pagan Roman Emperor. Julian had sought to reverse the pro-Christian policies of his grandfather Constantine and restore the the old pagan faith to the Empire. Julian was an enthusiast for astrology too. While we like to see the rise of Christianity as inevitable today the pagan counter-revolution of Julian might have succeeded if he had lived longer. However, as the winners write the history books Julian has been known ever since as 'Julian the Apostate'.
I highly recommend Adrian Murdoch's excellent book on Emperor Julian,
The Last Pagan: Julian the Apostate and the Death of the Ancient World.
Following Julian the Christian Emperor Theodosius I (Emperor from 379-395) was the last Emperor of both the Eastern and Western halves of the Empire and instituted various laws prescribing pagan religious practices. In particular, during 380-381 with the Edict of Thessalonica and the Council of Constantinople the Emperor Theodosius I enforced Catholic/Orthodox (Nicene) Christianity as the sole State religion, persecuting pagans and heretics.
Even in his time however there was still a very substantial pagan ruling class represented in the Senate who lobbied Theodosius I against his legal reforms. It is Theodosius I not Constantine, as is commonly assumed , who finally made Christianity the state religion of the entire Roman Empire. |
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Mark
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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I have just noticed that John Frawley will be delivering the Carter Memorial Lecture at the Astrological Association (UK) Conference this September.
The information on the AA website states: CARTER MEMORIAL LECTURE: 'The Western Tradition in Astrology:
| Quote: | | What it is. What it is not. Why this matters'. John's conclusions are radically different from the usual view. |
I think that is fair assessment. It sounds like John Frawley will now be sharing his idiosyncratic take on astrological history with the wider community of astrologers. If this thread is anything to go by it should be a lively evening....... |
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