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I've only read Mary Fortier Shea's SR book, but found it very interesting. If you do read Anthony's, please let me know your opinion, I"ve read Anthony's book on Horary, which I found fairly good, but since he uses some Modern techniques I also found it a bit annoying to decypher the modern from the traditional. I dont accept modern rulerships so some of it was very annoying to me from that perspective.

G

Re: Solar return book

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luna wrote:Has anyone read the book titled The art of forcasting using Solar returns by Author Anthony Louis
Your opinion please.
I would not recommend it. Louis purports to describe Morin's method of using revolutions (solar returns), but misunderstands several important parts of Morin's teaching, not to mention the basics of primary directions. Louis also mixes modern and traditional astrological ideas, and projects modern beliefs and techniques on to older authors. There are other blunders as well, such as ascribing Joseph Ratzinger's 2005 election as Pope to a secondary direction/progression (of the Sun to the angles) which had been in force for the past 25 years... All in all, not a well-researched or very useful book.

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I respectfully disagree with Martin's conclusion while acknowledging the correctness of the facts he presents. The book does not claim to be exclusively an exposition of Morin's techniques, and in fact begins with an extensive discussion of Volguine's understanding of Morin. Unfortunately for the researcher, Volguine is less accessible than Morin (i.e. his works in English translation are around, but expensive) thereby making an in-depth assessment of Volguine vis a vis Morin more difficult. Morin is not mentioned in depth until chapter 8.

The book is more modern than traditional, but I'm hard pressed to find claims by the author to be anything other than that. If in fact Louis misunderstands Morin and or the techniques employed, that is a valid criticism, but claims that this work is reputed to be a modern explanation of Morin are made by others, notably Bruce Scofield in a review.

Despite being more modern than traditional, the book, I think, serves as a solid, if general, introduction into the proper use of solar returns. Morin's Book 23 of Astrologia Gallica is still, in my mind, the gold standard, but in order to fully appreciated the depth of that work, one needs to be on solid ground with Morin's other works such as Book 21, General Delineation, and Book 22 Primary Directions. If we can't just pick up Book 23 and run with it, Louis' book can provide us with the basics we need in order to grasp the significance of the technique. If it leads to deeper study, it has performed well.

Tom

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granny_skot wrote:does anyone have recommendations for another Solar return book?

while we are on the topic? G.
James A. Eshelman?s book ?Interpreting Solar Returns? is a masterpiece of scholarly work on Solar Returns?can also be applied to Lunar Returns. It should be clearly understood that one must work with an accurate timed birth chart for this book to yield its rich planetary symbolism for the native. I think this book is out of print but can still be found with searches for used books. Try Amazon. If you are unsuccessful?let me know and I will contact Jim and ask him how to acquire his book. When properly understood?this book should be on every dedicated astrologer?s bookshelves. I will try to post more later of Eshelman?s Solar Return methods.

Regards, Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

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The following quote is from Cyril Fagan's 'Solunar Handbook' under the sub-title: 'What was the (Ancients) Secret?'

?By what means, then, did the ancients predict with such accuracy? Now, according to Hermes?: ?The Babylonians, Persians, Indians and Egyptians, both kings and private persons, undertook nothing in any year without examining their solar revolution; and if they found the year good they set to work, otherwise they reframed. The kings examined the nativities of their generals and observed their solar revolutions, and if they found that for one of them the return indicated power and victory, they sent him against the enemy, otherwise they left him aside. And they observed the nativities not only of their generals, but of ambassadors to see if their anniversary indicated a successful result. If it signified prosperity they sent them, but if not, they appointed, instead, others whose anniversary (i.e., solar return) did presage success?"

Jim Eshelman's book on the used book market may indeed be pricey but it is worth the price. His book explains precisley how to delienate and 'see' the merit of Solar Returns.

Regards, Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

Solar Return Books

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One of the greatest misconceptions among traditional astrologers is Cyril Fagan?s sidereal techniques of Solar Returns do not work in the tropical zodiac. An astrologer using the tropical zodiac only has to mathematically adjust for precession to allow a sight of rich astronomical/planetary symbolism with Solar & Lunar Returns, at certain times.

?We must therefore conclude from ancient astrological teachings: for prophetic purposes the solar and lunar returns are the chief predictive instruments, and that all events which befall the native are not foreshadowed in the horoscope of birth.? Cyril Fagan, ?Solunar Handbook?.

Another misconception about Sidereal Astrology is its techniques pertain solely to ?events?. It is true-- Sidereal Astrology techniques can foresee/calculate major events at times?but major events occur seldom in a life time. Solar, Lunar, and Quotidian maps are some of the finest tools in astrology for delineating the psychological effects the native experiences on a yearly, monthly, and at certain times a daily basics?relative to the native?s environment. Delineating the layers of a native?s psychic with a natal chart is an art and very important?but many clients are more interested in what they will experience in the near future pertaining to their immediate environments with their objectives in life. Solar and Lunar returns offer excellent delineation techniques for mapping rich psychological experiences.

Regards, Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

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One of the greatest misconceptions among traditional astrologers is Cyril Fagan?s sidereal techniques of Solar Returns do not work in the tropical zodiac.
I don't know that traditional astrologers think much about Cyril Fagan (1896 - 1970) one way or the other, much less carry around great misconceptions about him. In fact he's hardly been mentioned on the traditional Forum at Skyscript or any other traditional lists that I frequent or in any of the contemporary texts of traditional astrology that I've read. To quote Dorothy Parker, among traditionalists Fagan is "Forgotten, but not gone."
?We must therefore conclude from ancient astrological teachings: for prophetic purposes the solar and lunar returns are the chief predictive instruments, and that all events which befall the native are not foreshadowed in the horoscope of birth.? Cyril Fagan, ?Solunar Handbook?.
I'm going to write a poem someday: Ode to the Unnamed Ancient Astrologers. Traditional astrologers aren't immune from this affliction either. Ptolemy did it, among others. Fagan is apparently doing what Dane Rhudyar (1895 - 1985) and others of his generation did, accepted what they were told about "ancient astrologers" without checking or just made up things they thought sounded good. In fact the tables to calculate accurate solar and lunar returns weren't readily available to the "ancients" or anyone else up through the 17th century. Ptolemy himself grumbled about the lack of accurate tables. Kepler's Rudolphine tables can produce lunar returns that are hours off, and solar returns that are sufficiently off to change the ascendant. So it seems curious that these "chief predictive instruments" worked so well when they produced such inaccurate results.

This is not to say we cannot learn from the techniques applied by the authorities. We can; but we do have to wonder, at least I wonder, how they could be simultaneously inaccurately calculated and yet make sufficiently accurate predictions so as to become important.

Finally, I don't know of any traditional author (not contemporary authors of traditional astrology) that taught: "that all events which befall the native are not foreshadowed in the horoscope of birth." All the ones I've seen taught the reverse: the nativity is the basis of everything that follows. In fact if we don't need the nativity, the accuracy of the returns are unimportant. Any old time of day will do by definition, unless we're going to argue that the birth time is important to calculate the returns, but what is in the resulting chart isn't necessary for prediction. That's a head scratcher.

Tom

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Tom wrote: ....but we do have to wonder, at least I wonder, how they could be simultaneously inaccurately calculated and yet make sufficiently accurate predictions so as to become important.[/color]
I've often wondered about this too. Perhaps the used technique may not be that important at all but the intention makes the prediction. Being busy with a chart could bring an astrologer in a state of mind in which the astrologer intuitively 'knows' what will happen. This means that it would have less to do with the technique and perhaps even astrology wouldn't be the 'working' element.

Perhaps this is hard to accept to most astrologers ("why then study the technique anymore?"), but another close related explanation may be that if one study's a technique hard enough some patterns in life will become apparent in a way that according to the used technique a future event can be predicted, no matter what technique is used.

In the Primary directions threads several methods of using primaries and several 'keys' were discussed. However to each user who thoroughly studies his or her preferred method it yields result. I also have deviant preferences for primaries which reminds me of a phrase of William Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell; "If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise." Applied to astrology this could be explain the positive results of several techniques. Of course nobody is a 'fool' here, but I can imagine that using a technique, called incomplete or even totally erroneous by others, in a consequent or even persistant manner, may lead to useful results and finally reward the astrologer with 'becoming wise'.
All the ones I've seen taught the reverse: the nativity is the basis of everything that follows.
As far as I know every author acknowledges this. However I notice that I've often tended to neglect this. Expecting too much from predicted 'good' aspects to natal planets badly placed, and the disappointment afterwards. In the last few months I'm getting more reluctant in looking at predictions in my own chart. It's good to realize now and then that whichever personal prediction technique one uses, a natal chart is required from which every thing stems. When born with a Sun Saturn opposition it is 'destined' that at age 14-15 transiting Saturn will be in conjunction with the natal Sun, when born three hours before Sunrise the 'destiny' is that at age of ca. 45 the Sun will reach the horizon when Primary directed.

How this is filled in is for a significant part done by circumstances and also by free will. This is where I very much like Ptolemy's introduction to astrology of individuals (Tetr. III 1). It sometimes make me consider if I should focus on mundane astrology rather than the 'I centred' natal chart.
Tetrabiblos wrote:As in what precedes we have presented the theory of universal events, because this comes first and for the most part has power to control the predictions which concern the special nature of any individual, the prognostic part of which we call the genethialogical art, we must believe that the two divisions have One and the same power both practically and theoretically. For the cause both of universal and of particular events is the motion of the planets, sun, and moon; and the prognostic art is the scientific observation of precisely the change in the subject natures which corresponds to parallel movements of the heavenly bodies through the surrounding heavens, except that universal conditions are greater and independent, and particular Ones not similarly so.

Solar Returns

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Tom, you raise valid issues in response to my post in this Solar Return topic. I will offer a chart discussion with Bill Clinton?s 1998 Solar Return that may help offer more clarity to my enthusiasm pertaining to Fagan?s work, particularity to precession free Solar Returns.

I will take 3 simple but important criteria?s from Jim?s book, ?Interpreting Solar Returns? that has been the ONLY teaching tool in astrology that I have discovered for isolating the year of Solar Returns that produce ?outstanding incidents? in the life of a person, with an accurate timed birth. These 3 criteria?s never cease to amaze me as outstanding teaching points for the techniques of Sidereal Astrology associated with the Solar Return charts. Cyril Fagan (the father of Sidereal Astrology) rediscovered by rigorous pursuit of historical evidence the profound astrological/astronomical truths offered by a Solar Return calculated free of precession. Fagan?s discovery allowed him to realize that anyone in the last 2000 years who were computing Solar Returns in the Tropical Zodiac were not calculating an accurate clock time Solar Return. This of course would give inaccurate positions of the angles and the Solar Moon. Granted, there is no proof there were any tables to compute accurate timed Solar Returns until as you stated the 17th century. But Fagan and other few astrologers began to realize when they started to compute Solar Returns in a precession free framework the ?outstanding incidents? that was symbolized by Planetary angularity which became the ?cornerstone? of Sidereal Astrology. I feel the main reason more astrologers did not investigate these precession free Solar Returns was because of the word ?sidereal?. Again?it doesn?t matter which zodiac these returns are computed in?I compute my returns in the Tropical zodiac but recognize Fagan?s proof that the ?ancient? Babylonians & ?ancient? Egyptians were computing astronomy and astrology in the Sidereal zodiac. The key matter is understanding the astronomical correction of precession must occur in the Tropical zodiac in order to compute an accurate timed Return map to get the correct zodiac longitude of the Return angles and Return Moon. A good analogy for this is to understand that when we are born our Natal Charts has a set astronomical cross made up by the 4 angles. This set astronomical cross is carried throughout life and we all experience certain strong planetary symbolism when Planets transit these angles. But what most astrologers don?t recognize is this same Natal Cross dictates the new zodiac positions of angles with each new Solar Return. This is crux of Fagan?s brilliant discovery by studying ancient astronomical/astrological lore.

Jim Eshelman Solar Return criteria:
1: ANGULARITY AND PARTILE ASPECTS ??It is when angularity and aspect partiality coincide that outstanding incidents are most likely to come about.? Page 96, ?Interpreting Solar Returns?, under the heading ?Aspect Orbs?. Another key point is the aspect curve. For conjunctions and oppositions, this is a 4 degree orb; for squares, trines and sextiles, about 3 degrees. Aspects within this range, especially transits (for the dynamic aspects), should be eagerly attended when in the Solunar foreground. We are now encountering very serious influences.? *Foreground is 7.5 degrees on either side of an angle.
Partile aspects (1 degree orb or less) reign supreme. According to my proposed formulae, a conjunction or opposition with a 1 degree orb is at 99% of its maximum strength. Squares, trines, and sextiles register 98% of their full clout. For almost any purpose, they can indeed be considered ?exact.? Aspects at this high (partile) level of potency are apt to manifest no matter what. For anything less strong, angularity is required to lend easy expressiveness to whatever configurations are present. IT IS WHEN ANGULARITY AND ASPECT PARTILITY COINCIDE THAT OUTSTANDING INCIDENTS ARE MOST LIKELY TO COME ABOUT.
2: PARANS:?This is the most powerful of all configurations.? Fagan/Firebrace
A Paran occurs when ?two or more planets are simultaneously (bodily) on the same, adjacent or opposite angles.? Jim?s book on page 21 titled Parans offers excellent examples that fully explain their importance in Sidereal Astrology. It is rare to see an active angular Paran with a Solar Return but when they occur they are Dynamic in effect and produce important events.

3: Solar Return Moon: This, then, isolates the Moon as the most crucial agent in a Solar Return, after the angles. Lunar aspects to natal and solar planets can never be treated lightly, even when rather wide in orb. So remarkable is this single factor that, if lunar aspects are nearly exact while the foreground planets are not exceptionally close to the angles, the solar Moon can be considered the primary theme-setter of the chart for the year ahead, bar none.? Page 64, ?Interpreting Solar Returns?.

The following discussion of Clinton?s 1998 Solar Return is an excellent example and exemplifies all of Jim?s above 3 criteria?s . If anyone has the April and June 1999 issues of American Astrology, there are two articles that offer further discussions pertaining to the following example of an ?outstanding incident? foreseen by Clinton?s 1998 Solar Return, before the event occurred, using pure Sidereal Astrology techniques. Both of the astrologers who wrote these articles could not have written them if it was not for Jim?s book, ?Interpreting Solar Returns?. Clinton?s birth time is rated AA.

Aug. 19th, 1946, 8:51 AM CST. Hope Arkansas

Using Jim?s 3 criteria?s, with a simple glance of the eye, an astrologer is immediately alerted to a Dynamic Solar Return foreseeing an ?outstanding incident?. Not only is Clinton?s Solar Moon?Mars?Neptune in partile aspects in the foreground (7.5 degrees of an angle), they are placed in partile aspects ON the ASC/DSC axis. Another very important distinguishing sidereal tool is a Paran aspect of Solar Return Mars opposing Solar Return Neptune. Solar Neptune is rising with a local sidereal time of (L.S.T.) of 15:16:15 and Solar Mars is setting with a L.S.T. of 15:20:17. A potential or active Paran is defined by clock time when the time is within 8 minutes?or a two degree orb or less involving the angles. Also, Clinton?s Solar Moon is in Paran opposition to Solar Neptune. By Sidereal Astrology technique standards, explained in Jim?s book ?Interpreting Solar Returns, Clinton?s 98 Solar Return is a rare Return and is laced with potent symbolism forewarning the sidereal astrologer of a forthcoming ?outstanding incident? involving the President.

Please take note of Clinton?s Natal Moon and Natal Saturn on his 1998 Solar Return angles (IC/DES). In Jim?s book, he explains how important it is after analyzing a Solar Return, to take the Natal Chart looking for natal planets that fall on the ANGLES of a Solar Return. Jim explains when Natal planets fall on the angles of a Solar Return, in many cases it will explain how the native will psychologically REACT to the symbolism of their Solar Return. In Clinton?s Natal Chart there is a potential Paran formation of a setting Saturn with a L.S.T of 15:13:45 and an IC Natal Moon with a L.S.T of 15:14:05. Clinton?s potential natal Paran becomes a ACTIVE Paran by falling on his 98 Solar Return angles. So?how will Clinton react to the DYNAMICS influences of his 98 Solar Return? ?Bradley states from his book ?Solar and Lunar Returns? when Moon/Saturn Symbolism is ANGULAR:
??these denote setbacks, losses, sorrows, and blows to the natives pride which give rise to regrets and grief??

The above delineation was written in 1948 reflecting the brilliant research of Donald Bradley with precession free Solar Returns.

Fagan emphasized the mundoscope which factored in certain astronomical math that gave the only true mundane positions of a planet involving the angles of a scope. In other words Fagan stressed the importance when a planet was actually placed bodily on an angle. All scopes, except a selected mundoscope, generated by a computer program, in most cases, will not show the TURE mundane placement of a planet in relationship to the angles of a scope. Take note of Clinton?s Natal Saturn in relationship to Clinton?s 98 Solar Descendant. The scope shows Saturn 3+ degrees above the 98 SSR Descendant. But when you factor in the actual astronomy, involving latitude and declination, that occurred with Clinton?s birth, his Natal Saturn is actually placed bodily on his 98 Solar Descendant. In fact, Clinton?s transiting Solar Neptune is in partile Paran opposition to his Natal Saturn. This becomes very interesting when we read Bradley?s words from ?Solar and Lunar Returns? pertaining to Saturn/Neptune symbolism when falling on the angles of a chart?not only did this aspect fall partile on the angles?it was in PARAN formation!

?Saturn--Neptune: A real throne-toppler, this. Among its paramount keywords is ?removal,? for Saturn-Neptune surely takes first prize for forcing resignations?firings from jobs?? *written 1948.

So?the Country and the World was presented a somewhat sad but comical STAGE PLAY (?outstanding incident?) about a President that was brought up for partisan impeachment hearings because he lied about getting a BJ in the White House. Shakespeare must have rolled in his grave!

I know of no way the stand alone Natal Chart of Clinton foretold this ?outstanding incident? that occurred to Clinton as a sitting president. But Sidereal Astrology techniques with his 1998 Solar Returned foretold of an ?outstanding incident? for his 98 Solar year. I can site dozens of Solar Return discussions that prove these sidereal techniques. At times, precession free Solar Returns are invaluable instruments (tools) for the astrologer in helping a client through difficult times. I am only trying to offer certain ?books? that are not fashionable in today?s astrological book market that have proven to me are very valuable?no different from other astrologers on this Forum who are offering other books that are important to the astrologer. I will later cite other examples reinforcing the brilliancy of Fagan?s work.

Regards, Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan