I have been studying Lilly?s system of scoring accidental dignity and debility. Conjunct Angles seems to be concurrent with modern opinion. Having planets in angles gives them 5 points in accidental dignity.

What I am not so sure about is the weighting and the reasons behind these accidental dignities:

Direct and swift in motion (4 and 2 points.)

Free from combustion 5

Oriental and Occidental 2 points + or -

Besieged by Saturn or Mars -5, ( but I am not sure what it means, why this word besieged? What does it signify?)

Conjunction with South Node. -4.




I am up to speed with the Essential dignities, and peregrination, these are all very clear. But for example being free from combustion and direct seems to simply be an absense of debility rather than an advantage. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

I would love to know what people think of these accidental dignities and debilities. They are entirely out of modern use.

For the most part the traditional accidental dignities are helpful, but the scoring for speed borders on the nonsensical. If the Moon has a mean motion of around 13? 11' it makes no sense that a speed of 13? 14' gives 2 points and 13? 08' takes away 2 points. It makes much more sense if, say, 30' on either side of the mean motion creates a neutral zone of 0 points. A slower-moving body would naturally have a smaller neutral zone. This is one of those things that annoyed me when I first saw it a few years back and that I still haven't grasped the 'logic' of.

The other one that only gets a cold incredulous stare from me is cazimi. About all that one has going for it is an exotic name that evokes flying carpets and magical lamps. I have a hunch that if the name were changed to something more prosaically descriptive there would be much less excitement when it's spotted in a chart. I have yet to hear an explanation of the idea behind it that could raise it out of superstition. This is another one of those things that I instantly viewed at first exposure as endowed with a high BS factor. First impressions are important.

I have no problems with the accidental dignities you mentioned. The positive scoring for lack of combustion is acceptable to me, but maybe I would consider reducing it to +3. Positive and negative scoring for direct and retrograde motion is fine with me, but something needs to be done with the stations! A planet that has stopped, or nearly has, in order to turn retrograde is at a very weak point. Life is pretty bleak for the planet at that point. Likewise, when it stations direct life is looking good and a fresh wind blows. If being direct is +2, then maybe it's worthwhile saying SD is +3 or +4 because it's a hopeful and forward-looking time. Rather than the possibly mindless routine of forward motion during the direct period itself it's a time of positive change. In the same light, if being retrograde is -2, then -3 or -4 might be a good idea for SR due to the fact that it is a crisis point and a time of possible dread and lack of hope. It's a time of no movement and of seeing the long retrograde period ahead as a time of weakness and back-tracking.

One thing that I have often thought of starting a thread on: Partile aspects. Who here scores for partile aspects (same degree)? How many of you actually do score it only if, say, Moon at 15 Aries 10 is trine Jupiter at 15 Leo 56? There seems to be a thought behind it that was dropped ages ago. Moon at 15 Aries 10 trine Jupiter at 16 Leo 06 (1? orb) seems fine to me and a shame to miss because we've crossed into another degree. I often consider going up to 3? orb. If a partile trine to Jupiter or Venus is worth +4 according to Lilly, would it be outlandish to change it to trine Jupiter or Venus with a 1? orb = 4 points; trine them with a 3? orb = 2 points? After all, a trine to a benefic is highly thought of and desirable, so why ignore one with a 2 or 3 degree orb and not let it contribute a positive score?

A planet is besieged if it is between Saturn and Mars but a more specific definition if it is in bad aspects (square or opposition) to both those malefic planets. It is not good for the planet but if it also makes a good aspect to the benefics e.g a sextile to Venus that rescues it. Venus can triumph over Mars say.

Oriental and occidental gets very complicated
.
Matt

Kirk and Matt,

Thanks for your replies. I have had quite a lot answered here, more in fact than what I hoped for.

But still it is always good to iron out some of these things. And I am keen on carrying on with it.

Beseiged: A planet is between Mars and Saturn. No aspects to these. Why beseiged? To me it would be effective due to Solar Arc and progressions as an event. This makes sense.

The Stationary planets Kirk I am in agreement with you on.

Speed of the Moon again is a funny concept.


What bothers me though is that some of the accidental dignities have the same number of points given to Essential dignities. For example a planet free from combustion gets +5 while a planet in its essential dignity sign of rulership gets +5.

Essential dignities in my book are of a much greater importance. Another one: Planet is in own rulership in terms and in 1st house. But is beseiged, and has Mercury oriental.

Because of those two, half the points are subtracted.

Partile conjunction with south node: -4 Ok it is debility, but if the planet is in essential dignity? Why is this so totally unfortunate?

As Tom wrote, the dignity scores ?give the astrologer some kind of general hierarchy?, and that hierarchy is based on the rating and ranking of importance we assign to the various dignity factors. That's the value of these scoring discussions: They lead to consideration of what factors may or may not be important and how important they are in relation to other factors. The matter of scores is in reality only part of the issue. These are good occasions for considering the use of such factors as partile aspects, planetary stations and conjunctions to the Moon's south node. Unfortunately, these discussions inevitably lead to comments of how the adding up of numbers isn't what chart delineation is all about. The discussion then dries up and worthwhile investigation is cut off. Meanwhile, you can bet that most people are in practice ignoring partile trines. It just doesn't get talked about.

There's another advantage to adding up points: You know what you've got and it's displayed in front of you. "Direct ? that's good. Free of combustion and oriental ? great! Oh wow ? That trine to Jupiter!" (I really do say such things to myself when sitting alone with my computer.) Instead of some vague sense of 'Strong' aimlessly wandering about in a cluttered brain there is a figure written down in front of one's face which gives a concrete sense of just how strong the planet is and how it compares to the other planets. Of course, art later steps in, shifts things around a bit and softens stark lines, but first must come a solid, concrete framework for clear perspective.

Partile conjunction with south node: -4 Ok it is debility, but if the planet is in essential dignity? Why is this so totally unfortunate?

It's not, and nowhere does it say that under all conditions is a partile conjunction with the south node "totally unfortunate." The south node is malefic, therefore, contact with it is a debility. End of story.

Furthermore, contact with the south node is an accidental debility. Being in domicile is an essential dignity. Apples and oranges. If we delineate the south node as "where you get hurt," then being in contact with a planet in domicile would mean a strong planet works against the native.

Tom

Kirk wrote:As Tom wrote, the dignity scores ?give the astrologer some kind of general hierarchy?, and that hierarchy is based on the rating and ranking of importance we assign to the various dignity factors. That's the value of these scoring discussions: They lead to consideration of what factors may or may not be important and how important they are in relation to other factors. The matter of scores is in reality only part of the issue. These are good occasions for considering the use of such factors as partile aspects, planetary stations and conjunctions to the Moon's south node. Unfortunately, these discussions inevitably lead to comments of how the adding up of numbers isn't what chart delineation is all about. The discussion then dries up and worthwhile investigation is cut off. Meanwhile, you can bet that most people are in practice ignoring partile trines. It just doesn't get talked about.

There's another advantage to adding up points: You know what you've got and it's displayed in front of you. "Direct ? that's good. Free of combustion and oriental ? great! Oh wow ? That trine to Jupiter!" (I really do say such things to myself when sitting alone with my computer.) Instead of some vague sense of 'Strong' aimlessly wandering about in a cluttered brain there is a figure written down in front of one's face which gives a concrete sense of just how strong the planet is and how it compares to the other planets. Of course, art later steps in, shifts things around a bit and softens stark lines, but first must come a solid, concrete framework for clear perspective.

Tom :

Apples and Oranges. Exactly. Accidental debility or degnity is a secondary influence, much like the nature of the houses since they are "accidental", they are where things take place and what happens to some extent. Whereas the Essential dignity is never to be denied or taken away despite the idea in the score table or subracting equal points. Those points are not subracted from the Essential dignity score. So a Libra venus partile square Saturn for example is still essentially dignified. The quality of Venus in this instance is to be beautiful and diplomatic, Saturn or the south node would then be "accident" what happens to Venus, but not actually affecting that essential nature.

Kirk :

You mentioned hierarchies. This is what I am currently working on. To find a hierarchy within the chart. To go beyond the simple vagueness of exaltation or rulership and to add up as it were terms, face, triplicity. But also to balance the accidental dignities with this, so that if there is a tie between two planets say, you might differenciate and say "ah, but this one is highly accidentally dignified.

To me then, I have decided on placing essential dignity first. No amount of accidental dignity will change an essentially detriment planet, only to give it voice and praise, to give it opportunity despite being of a nature which is foreign to itself

Night Sky wrote:
I am up to speed with the Essential dignities, and peregrination, these are all very clear. But for example being free from combustion and direct seems to simply be an absense of debility rather than an advantage. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

I think it's because heliacal phases are very important, in Ptolemy for example.

A planet in heliacal rising- oriental and direct and swift in motion- is very strong and can give many benefits in a chart. For example for Vettius Valens "planets produce clear and important events, ...because every planet in that moment produces what is in agreement with his true nature"

Moreover the old problem arises: a pianet in his essential dignities but very debilitated by accidental condition can act?

Merry Christmas, Margherita

Margherita,

Thanks for the input. And Merry Xmas to you too. : )


I have been finding recently this result. Dignities that are under the "accidental" category seem to produce results. This is all I?m saying. I have begun to notice it and it?s a real phenomenon.

I?ll use the analogy of a barbarian being elected president. Not dignified essentially... but by accident is able to do all and anything that the ordinary president would do. And of course what he does and the quality of action is poor, but all orders are still carried out!

I don?t need to quote anyone or look it up... I can see it in the charts I?m using. I think that?s the test for me. But I can see it.


The only thing I am having small questions about is the relative value that is ascribed to each accidental debility.

Conjunction with South Node
Under Sun?s Beams having the same weight as Combustion
Besieged by Saturn or Mars


These are all given equal weight in debility by Lilly. And I have a problem with this, because I am not sure that they all carry that weight. Especially the South Node Conjunction. (Which I see as accidental Dignity comparable to cazimi.)

I would like to work these through.

Night Sky wrote: I?ll use the analogy of a barbarian being elected president. Not dignified essentially... but by accident is able to do all and anything that the ordinary president would do. And of course what he does and the quality of action is poor, but all orders are still carried out!

Hello again.
I see this under another light.
The most accidental dignified planet could help the most essential dignified planet in his work when there is whatever testimony between them.
If these planets are enemies each other in the chart we are working with this is impossible, obvious, it depends on the chart.

Especially the South Node Conjunction. (Which I see as accidental Dignity comparable to cazimi.)

As Mithra6 told you South Node traditionally damages. For example in Cardano extract I recently uploaded in my blog, the author writes:
"The Head of the Dragon alone has no meaning, but if in conjunction with other planets means an increase and sharpness, and it lessens evils. The Tail increases evils and means losses and restraint. "

Hope this helps,
Margherita

Bonatti made this rather interesting comment about the nodes:

....whenever the Head is in any house which signifies good, he will always increase it by one-third. And whenever the Tail is in any house wihch signifies good, it will always take away one-third of the good. And whenever it is in some house which signifies evil, it always diminishes one-third of the evil, just as if the Head were in some house which signifies evil, it will increase it by one-third.

Which may be interesting. I haven't had a chance to work with this one yet, though, but I do plan to try to keep it in mind and see if it bears out.