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Tom wrote
?..what does this say about our understanding of the 12th? If it is the house of troubles, slavery, secrets, treachery, illness, confinement, imprisonment, etc, why would we find a prominent 12th in so many public figures? Is our understanding at least partly wrong?
For my part, I have given up some of the negative connotations of H12. I adopted the findings of Gauquelin that H12 is a diurnal sector which gives a planet special strength. My experience with chart readings confirms that. (The Mars Effect, http://www.theoryofastrology.com/gauque ... effect.htm )

Just imagine what happens at sunrise. The sun appears from the dark. The rising of a planet or star at night is a special moment. Not to mention how important all this was to the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians (Heliacal Rise).

H12 is rather a place where something appears FROM the dark and comes to light. Like fresh morning dew if you think of sunrise.

Ren?

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But Saturn is not doing much here,unless you count the sextile to Uranus in libra. I hope I will not be deemed guilty of hi-jacking this thread by making it a debate about the 12th house though.

Matt

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Regarding the 12th place, I don't think we have to go to the devil's math (aka statistics :-T ) for any special answers. It was known as the Place of the Evil Daimon; many a sociopathic or neurotic person has, by the very nature of their inner conflicts, a certain charisma and drive about them. They'd still have a guiding spirit, it just would be like this :twisted: . (The usual caveats applying, of course: Not everyone with a heavy 12th is crazy, etc. etc)

I would agree that all these planets in the 12th are afflicted, but I don't think we can say that they can't do anything, just that they have trouble guiding the manifestation of their particular significations.

Looking at the 12th as the place of personal enemies, we could see that this is a man with many and varied enemies: kings and great men (Sun), the common people (Moon), lawyers and probably contentious religious people (Mercury, with its lordship of the 9th), and women (Venus).
Gabe

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I hope I will not be deemed guilty of hi-jacking this thread by making it a debate about the 12th house though.
I think this is a very useful discussion given the chart and that the discussion applies to other charts. We may get more involved when the native is revealed.
I don't think we have to go to the devil's math (aka statistics) for any special answers.
Devil's math - I love it.

Tom

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Hi, GR, I liked "devil?s math".

Sasha said that he might be a healer, but this chart don?t "feel" like a doctor to me, but I only have read a few charts or professionals of medicine, so I can?t rule it out.

Moon rules the MC and is both cadent and combusted, two factor that shows "invisibility". Again it shows that he does something "under the shadows". If he is not hidden in a cave, it can show activities that he wants to be hidden.

Looking at the chart, I am more inclined now to judge mars as the profession ruler... mars is in his own sign, in the second house, and conjunct jupiter, exaltation lord of the MC. Jupiter beholds the MC and is not cadent and combusted, like the moon. Janeg already did a good delineation of the mars/mercury aspect in this chart, as well as conj. with jupiter. So, he probably had talents of both mercury (dispositor of a lot of planets, including sun and the ruler of theMC) and mars. Hmmm, a business man ?
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

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Sasha said that he might be a healer, but this chart don?t "feel" like a doctor to me, but I only have read a few charts or professionals of medicine, so I can?t rule it out.
I was definitely wrong, and I admit it without hesitation.
The relation between Mercury and Mars conjunct Jupiter in 2 house is a good indication for a profession linked to money.
Last edited by sasha_i on Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thanks, Tom and Yuzuru. "Devil's Math" does have a nice ring to it, and it does show just how tricky it is, especially when it appears to be applied to astrology, where it doesn't really apply at all, IMO.
Gabe

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Never mind "Devil's Math" there was a British Prime Minister who said there are "Lies,damn lies and statistics". Having said that I came across Gauquelin before I came across trad astrology so I do appreciate looking at Sari's work in this field.

I have tried assessing the native's job using Maternus Book 7 XXVI.
He is not Al Jolson but Mars in the anafora of POF sextile Mercury means he will be good Physician(surgeon?) barber or iron or fire worker.I had a hard time understanding it so I hope I have got that right. If he made money therefore it must have been in the coal or steel industries.

Matt

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I just want to congratulate Steven for his accurate analysis of the mystery chart - great job, and it shows clearly to which extent the traditional astrology is capable of giving clear, unambiguous information about someone's life.

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cor scorpii wrote:I just want to congratulate Steven for his accurate analysis of the mystery chart - great job, and it shows clearly to which extent the traditional astrology is capable of giving clear, unambiguous information about someone's life.
Steven, it is quite amazing to me, how it?s possible to tell so much about someone without even knowing who they are. But I guess this is the true desire of Astrology. This is what distinguishes those astrologers who use hindsight and those who have true foresight.

I was directed to this thread in quest of an answer about the possible strength of an essentially detrimented planet. The planet which has been talked about is Saturn so I focus on this planet.

Saturn is detriment in Leo. Now we don?t know who this is or what they achieved in their life. But going on what has been said before, Saturn here in this chart has a number of accidental dignities.


As you said it is in the 11th, but it is also direct, and swift in motion, Jupiter and Mars is Oriental and it is free from combustion. These on there own amount to a number of points which allow it to be a free and autonomous planet with its own power. I am not sure how it has terms and triplicity though my table has it in the triplicity of Sun and Terms of Venus, with those planets not in Saturn?s.

Now obviously, the domicile Mars in the house that it rules in the chart is the real power broker with Jupiter conjunct and sextile the ascendant ruler, as well as chart dispositor Mercury.

Of course Mars is ruler of second, but ruler of 7th too. So cash may have been spent or made through allies and enemies.

Venus:

Another planet in FALL and in traditionally dire 12th house, unter the Sun?s beams is saved by certain countering factors.

It does have an essential dignity: that of triplicity. Triplicity gives this Venus some counter effect against being in Fall, as it is a strong essential dignity. Secondly Venus is also direct and swift in motion. And thirdly in partile sextile with Jupiter, counted as accidental dignity.



Ok I have to guess don?t I. Going on Mars the most essentially dignified planet: this person is in business, produces weapons, armaments or anything involving the traditional business of Scorpio, undertaker, secret business.

Jupiter then receives some accidental dignity like Saturn despite being peregrine, and so I will say that Jupiter expands Mars?s influence, making this person fairly wealthy.

Mercury is essentially dignified, but unfortunate in other ways. So I will say that this person was clever and mentally astute, but not able to make anything from that knowledge as it is accidentally not helped at all. They must have been respected for their mind but kept their thoughts and knowledge away from the business.


Then we have Saturn semi-square Venus. Venus represents the person and his beginning. Coming from a weak place. Would have been supported by all the cash in the second house in his fight (semi-square) with an accidentally dignified Saturn. Saturn though is not really an enemy but a friend in the 11th ruler of 4th probably family... which reinforces the 7th to 2nd alliance.


So with the essential debility of Saturn and Venus I have to go on to say that this person is not respected either for his own self, or for his family, they don?t have strength on their own. Accidentally then he had the opportunity for gaining many of the benefits from Saturn, political, governmental, support from institutions, churches, from the Conservative establishment. He gained power then without having either the skill or right to wield this power.


Now the reason for my conclusions are drawn from two modern examples both with Saturn in Leo in detriment, but both of who achieved great political power:

Adolf Hitler and Bill Clinton. They both have this position. They both achieved great power and political office simply through the accidental dignity of this planet.

But essential debility is the reason that they were both disgraced and lost power without "dignity" so to speak. Ego of course came into their political career. In Hitler?s case: megalomania, in Clinton?s case: self-satisfaction in office.

So to finish: Mars is both accidentally and essentially greatly dignified. He would have started off with some cash and made exponentially more. All above board and honest, because of the essential dignity there.

Mercury rules the 9th and is also essentially strong, which indicates a definite international dimension and interest in religion and politics. (check out the outer planet conjunction there.)

MC ruler and Ascendant ruler both in 12th= not famous. But nevertheless powerful due to all of those accidental dignities.

Nice to try this out, like the forum. Merry Xmas all.

Re: mystery chart no.17

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northernlights wrote:question from a bewildered beginner:
having read Deb's tutorial here on Skyscript re Lily's 5 degree orb of influence for house cusps , i thought both Mars and Jupiter would be interpreted as affecting the third house, rather than the 2nd. Could someone elaborate? thank you.
Mars and Jupiter are in the 2nd house according to Alcabitius and Whole Sign houses, the two preferred house systems in medieval astrology.