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Ken Wilber
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Annemieke



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:27 am    Post subject: Ken Wilber Reply with quote

Hi all

I was wondering if someone here is familiar with the works of Ken Wilber. I have been diving in his work these past few months and I see many interesting similarities with astrology.

I think his models like AQAL, his basic map, and Altitude, his developmental map of humans as well as history and societies, are very interesting and in many ways similar to the zodiac.

So I was curious if others know his work and what they think of it.

Annemieke
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not familiar with this persons work. Feel free to enter a practical example relating to some mundane situation. That might be interesting. Thumbs up

What does AQAL stand for?
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Annemieke



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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AQAL stands for ‘all quadrants all levels’ and it is his basic map. In essence it is the subject and object on an individual and collective level.

There is the individual/interior, the collective/interior, the individual/exterior and the collective/exterior, set in a quadrant. Left is interior, right exterior, up individual and bottom collective.

Here is some more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber#AQAL:_.22All_Quadrants_All_Levels.22

A practical example of a mundane situation might be his Altitudemap with stages of development in history and society. He uses levels of development to explain the differences in worldview and along with that the difficulty of communication with other cultures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber#Levels_or_stages
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kenan



Joined: 30 Jul 2010
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: Astrology, Integral (Ken Wilber) , Gestalt Reply with quote

AnneMieke, I tried to post this to you personally but not sure it made it. So, here it is for the thread.

I have been obsessed with relating AQAL into astrological and Gestalt process.
I have search extensively for astrological references in the Integral, Wilber, Spiral Dynamics but haven't found much so far.

What's stumping me now is this:
Contemplation on the astrological wheel is very much about polarities and the integration of, for example, Aries v Scorpio. Then some consideration of evolving through the "memes" toward higher consciousness.

I have a problem with the graphical relationships of Wilber quadrants. They are not graphically polarized. They are simply X v Y axis, very two dimensional. I'm thinking that the "it" quadrant (UR) should be Lower Right and the "its" quadrant should be Upper Right. That way the four quads would have symmetrical polarity.

Additionally, the astrology wheel is divided into Left= Self, Right=Other. Upper = Outer, Lower= Inner. That's not exactly isometric to AQAL's Interior/Exterior, Singular/Plural.

AQAL doesn't provide a continuous vector relationship (like astrology's 360 degree wheel) that would show, for example, where the "center" of "I" really is and what polarity would present itself for Integral development: resolution of dialogue. Which, by the way, is the stage of consciousness that would enable an evolution from First Tier to Second Tier (as in Spiral Dynamics).

And, by the way, the Gestalt relationship is summed up in what I call the Gestalt Quaternion (ripped off from Jung's Quaternio: sensing, thinking, feeling, intuition and references in Aion). This also relates to Wilber's 3-2-1 process. Interesting stuff!
http://www.branam.com/gestalt/gestalt-pillow-talk.shtml

Pardon my geometric language and attempt to summarize the complexity. Hope you can translate this into consciousness perspectives.

What do you think? Can we talk?
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kenan



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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject: Gestalt Astrology Reply with quote

Also, see an isometric relationship between Gestalt dialogue and Astrology:

http://www.branam.com/gestalt/gastaltastro.shtml
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Annemieke



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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kenan

Great to see you are interested in relating Integral theory with Astrology. Like you, I did not find much about that relation. And when I started to try and combine them, I could see why. It was almost impossible to put them together in a model. As many similarities as there seem to be at first sight, it is all just to different to fit together.

But I just had to make a model that integrates them both and so I kept trying. And I finally got a model that I am satisfied with. But for that to happen, I had to alter, rename and just look at both models a bit different and I had to turn the Zodiac upside down.

The result is:

‘It’ (UR, personal outside) is aries, taurus, gemini.
‘I’ (UL, personal inside) is cancer, leo, virgo.
‘We’ (LL, collective inside) is libra, scorpio, sagittarius.
‘Its’ (LR, collective outside) is capricorn, aquarius, pisces.



About Jung’s sensing, thinking, intuition and feeling, those I use in a diagram where feeling and intuition are both what I call ‘potential’ and sensing and thinking are both ‘structure’.

Intuition and thinking are both ‘active’ and sensing and feeling are both ‘passive’.

For convenience I call them resp: body, mind, spirit, soul so that I can call the signs for example ‘primordial spirit’ (aries) or ‘universal mind’ (aquarius).



Further I use the Zodiac for Wilbers other system called Altitude. That is even more difficult to explain in a message, but you can find it on my blog where I made a first attempt to picure it. http://www.mindstructures.com/altitude/

This is in very short how I see the relationship and I would love to hear what you (or others) think.


Last edited by Annemieke on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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kenan



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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Ken Wilber, Astrology, Spiral Dynamics Reply with quote

Good stuff! I'll need to time to get my mind around it. I'll digest your blog.

I, too, tried many rotations and inversals (?) and only got confused. (Years ago, I tried flipping the natal chart to test the idea of perspectives from the self to perspectives from others. Example, how do others "see" an aries versus how an aries "feels." Analogous to helio centric versus earth centric.)

Meanwhile, I was reading Spiral Dynamics this morning and was able to see more dimensions. Plus, the "devil of dialogue," the simultaneous "for every actions there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Both the astrological wheel and AQAL are x/y axis and perhaps a z dimension is needed for a proper integration. Spiral Dynamics introduces a z axis and possibly more. For example, the dynamics of interaction between inner awareness and outer awareness results in a "change of levels" to a higher order of dialogue... "moving up" and "out," expanding the spiral of interaction.

Complex! Internal/external awareness, self/other conceptualization, and singular/plural are all different axi. ??

I may have to buy that 3-D graphics program after all. Duh!

This is all pretty messy, I know, but something will emerge out of the chaos. Let's continue to experiment. (I'm a sagge, of course :-) http://www.branam.com/personal/KDB-natal-chart.gif

Any multidimensional thinkers on this thread? Help us out.

Meanwhile, Saturday honeydoes await...
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Annemieke



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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Ken Wilber, Astrology, Spiral Dynamics Reply with quote

kenan wrote:
Spiral Dynamics introduces a z axis and possibly more. For example, the dynamics of interaction between inner awareness and outer awareness results in a "change of levels" to a higher order of dialogue... "moving up" and "out," expanding the spiral of interaction.

I also like to use a spiral approach. If I understand it all well, the integral concept of Altitude is based on Spiral Dynamics. But for me to understand it better, I use the model of the Zodiac for both. And the Zodiac as cycles within cycles, every time on another level.
Quote:
Complex! Internal/external awareness, self/other conceptualization, and singular/plural are all different axi. ??

Very complex indeed. Is there a difference between self, personal and individual? Is 'other' the opposite and if yes, from what? Is internal/external the same as subjective/objective?

Is all keeping me thinking for some time now. And it seems that every concept is used different by everyone. Would be great if there was some kind of agreed upon basic model that includes 'everything' :-)
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kenan



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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: TOE Reply with quote

Ah! Yes! TOE: Theory of Everything...
Which is a clue. TOE or the parts of our anatomy that touch the ground, the Embodiment, the Make Manifest, resulting in the State of Being... for an individual. For society, Law and Order: BLUE.



This is not the time for even a higher order of BLUE. These are times for change. Many possibilities. Clashing Memes that both resonate and clash. New Memes, old memes. Yes, we play the "fitting game" as a basic instinct, basic cognitive process of adaptation, seeking to harmonize and Feel Good.

Cardinal, Fixed, and Mutable. Time for Mutable.
Comon language? Astrology still works for me. Sagittarians require four feet on the ground, Pisces can swim up stream, Scorpio dives deep.

Zero Point Field holds hope for me>

Until then, music helps. Dancing/singing is the ultimate integrative activity for simplicity of complexity. Be Here Now
OM........... :-)

[/img]
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Annemieke



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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: TOE Reply with quote

kenan wrote:
This is not the time for even a higher order of BLUE.

I absolutely agree. I think it is time to take the individuality of people and build upon that.

The developmental stage after Blue (which Wilber calls Amber) is Orange (Science and logic) and then Green (all views are equal).

The next stage is called different at several places, but I see the essential need for individual viewpoints that have to be discussed. Discussed deeply and with respect for each others views. Or as David Bohm would say, in dialogue. Entertain each others views, even (or maybe especially) those that seem opposed.

Quote:
Until then, music helps.

I indeed think that music helps and is capable of resonating with our feelings. Leonard Bernstein said that music can ‘name the unnamable’ and ‘communicate with our interior lives’. And I really think so too.
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kenan



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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking about it :-)
(Mercury in Scorpio/1st house)
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Annemieke,

I too have read a lot of Wilber's work. Pleasantly surprised to see his name mentioned on Skyscript!

Going more deeply into the Buddhist/post-dualistic realms... I see no need to build a system relating AQAL to astrology. Astrology works perfectly well on its own, informed by the principles of AQAL and Wilber's other ideas.

It's kinda like Tarot and astrology. Various people have tried to put them together in various different ways but the fact remains - Tarot and astrology may speak on the same topics, but they do so in two separate languages. Like English and German. Both say the same thing, but expressed slightly differently.

Any attempt to squish the two into one has a distinctly unsatisfactory result. In squishing them together, a great deal of subtlety and depth is lost.

I find having many languages preferable to just one "uber-language". Many voices allow many observations, colours, flavours... My vote is to be multi-lingual as it were, to entertain as many different schools and systems of thought as possible.

Wilber (Buddhism-informed) describes the importance of the I-AM or the inner stillness or whatever labels one wishes to point to it with. Connection and communication between different systems, such as Tarot and astrology, or the AQAL model and the Zodiac, happens in this stillness, the silent receptive/intuitive space, not in the realms of the mind. We do not need to force English and German to merge. We can enjoy speaking both, knowing that we are all the richer for seeing the world through two languages.

What I mean to say is, even Wilber states that his model is just a model, just "a finger pointing to the moon". Astrology is another finger. So is Tarot. I like having many signposts, all of them slightly different. Perhaps that way there is a greater chance I will see the moon! Smile

Keren
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kenan



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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:37 pm    Post subject: AQAL and Astrology and Spiral Dynamics Reply with quote

Keren, thank you for your insight. I agree. The principle of Integral is to include diversity, not rise past it.

I think astrology as a whole system is highly evolved in wisdom and complexity. I view AQAL as Ken Wilber's objective to simplify Complexity of accumulative knowledge and wisdom and, most importantly, project a vision for the future. I view AQAL as very limited compared to astrology, for example. I continue to add to AQAL some of the radial, polarization, multidimensional aspects of ancient wisdom. Even the astrological chart (not astrology in total) is flattened. I haven't found the space and time to do a complete mapping yet and still hope to.

I also have ideas about Spiral Dynamics and astrology. I'm looking at the astrological elements and cardinalities as ways to explain the evolution through and up the spiral. Look at the spiral as more than a linear progression. A point of the spiral line is not just "seeing" the previous and the next point. In fact, the mathematics of spirals (the Golden Rectangle) describes a multidimensional process (across the spiral path). I suspect astrology (including the esoteric narrative) could provide specific insight into the HOW of Conscious Evolution.

More later when I have the time to map it (and figure out how to embed graphics in these comments. :-)
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Annemieke



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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Keren

I absolutely agree that astrology works perfectly on its own. As do Wilber’s ideas. And I also agree that in trying to squish them together, much subtlety and depth is lost.

The same with languages, each language has its unique voice, which should never be lost.

But still, I had several reasons to merge those models.

The first was that those models all seem to ‘cover the whole’ so to speak. I have no evidence of that, it is just that it they made much sense to me. And as there is just one whole, I thought they all had to be expressions of that same whole.

The second was that I wanted to understand the AQAL and Altitude model better. And the best way for me is to use another model that I understand already better (in this case the Zodiac) to compare it with. And while doing that, there were just to many similarities to ignore.

And the third is that I really love to look at things from a distance to see how they fit together, to search for an overall model.

I absolutely see the downside of that. Much nuance is lost. Each model has its own logic and reasoning that does not fit into the overall model.

But sometimes it makes me question that logic and reasoning and I make some new assumptions. Sometimes I have to let those assumptions go, but other times they bring me some steps further.

It is just my attempt to understand the world.
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Bill



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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read a couple of books by Ken Wilber a good while back - Up from Eden and The Holographic Paradigm and Other Paradoxes. I'm not too familiar with his more recent work. However, I do distinctly remember getting the impression from my contact with his writings that Wilber has/had a particularly jaundiced view of astrology.

This of course does not mean there is no point in considering astrology in the light of his ideas (or vice versa).

As far as I recall, the main issue around which Wilber's critique of all things 'New Age' revolved was what he calls the pre/trans fallacy. In essence, Wilber identifies pre-rational, rational and trans-rational states, perspectives or experiences. The first and the last of these are non-rational, and therefore can easily become conflated.

Wilber would see pre-rational experience as pre-personal, and associated with mythical religion as opposed to trans-rational mystical religion, nature as opposed to cosmos, instinct as opposed to intuition, body as opposed to soul, and so on. (see http://www.integralworld.net/fallacy.html).

As far as Wilber is concerned development ideally moves from pre-rational to rational to trans-rational. Moving from rational to pre-rational Wilber would see as a regressive shift back 'to infantile states'.

He associates much New Age thinking with this regressive shift, almost as an anti-rational reaction. He thinks that C.G.Jung's work has influenced a confusion between pre-rational and trans-rational states, while Freud's work implies that trans-rational states are equally regressive as pre-rational states and basically symptomatic of neurosis.

Wilber seems to see astrology in the light of this fallacy. It was, or maybe still is, a major area of disagreement between himself and Stanislav Grof, as well as Grof's colleague Richard Tarnas.

As I say, this doesn't prevent one considering astrology in the light of Wilber's ideas; it could well be argued that when it comes to astrology, he may not know what he is talking about.

However, unless Wilber's stance has changed or evolved, one should perhaps be careful if one wishes to clarify further the connections between his theories and astrology by engaging in discussion either with him or his followers and adherents!

All the best,

Bill
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