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The trouble with the association with Mars and the Moon is that all quotes seem to be derived from the same source, Ptolemy. And here we have two versions. Does the evidence point to the Pleiades being an evil influence?
Ebertin-Hoffman, Fixed Stars wrote:The power of Mars is good in raising people to high positions. However, with other relevant planetary connections this can make for high passion and ruthlessness. The best example here is STALIN. Alcyone, Pluto and Algol are in conjunction in his nativity.
I am not convinced by the validity of this statement. Alcyone and Algol are roughly 4 degrees apart and an alignment to Pluto can hardly be refered to as a personal condition? :???:
Elisabeth Ebertin, Fixed Stars wrote:Sun conjunct Pleiades in most cases brings a violent death by blow, stabbing or murder.
Why do I feel like challenging these postulates?

Ebertin does suggest a inclination to homosexuality, but I would suggest that sexual diversions are more a consequence of emotional frustration and 'bottled up' feelings.
http://www.astronor.com

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Andrew J. Bevan wrote:The trouble with the association with Mars and the Moon is that all quotes seem to be derived from the same source, Ptolemy. And here we have two versions. Does the evidence point to the Pleiades being an evil influence?
Hello Andrew,

but why do you think Ptolemy is the main source for Pleiades?
Traditionally in fact they are very "stormy" stars in Rome traditional calendars like Columella, Plinius and so on.
Stade (1560) gives several quotes taken from these texts rather than giving his own one.

I don't think - this is my opinion, anyway- everything about fixed stars comes from Ptolemy, Manilius mentions many barbarian stars which are not in Ptolemy and put several stars in another way.
I think there are several different sources rather just Ptolemaic one, and moreover in Manilius/Firmicus paranatellonta make native's qualities, so in the case:

"The Pleiades are found in the sixth degree of Taurus. Those who are born when these are rising are always involved in luxury and lust. They are always drenched in perfumes, given to too much wine drinking, impudent in speech, so that in banquets and love-making they attack their companions with a sarcastic wit. They are addicted to all crimes of passion and are the kind who raise laughter by their biting tongues."

And this is an older source than Ebertin...

On the other hand Mark already mentioned the corresponding quote from Manilius.

Have a nice day,
margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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Gjiada wrote:Why do you think Ptolemy is the main source for Pleiades?
You've got me wrong on that. Lilly, Sibly, Pearce, Robson all refer to Ptolemy. According to Al H. Morrison, Ptolemy was a 'copy-cat' typist (take the pun) - although I think we probably all will give him more credit than that. Ptolemy seems to have collected and catalogized the mainstream of astrological knowledge of his time. Nobody is suggesting he invented it. For some reason the Tetrabiblos has up until now received more attention than other works as a major work classical reference. I have not yet found anything that takes me beyond Ptolemy that explains whether Pleiades should be associated with Moon & Mars or Moon & Jupiter. Therefore the question is open.

Colour has sometimes been used to describe the quality or nature of the planets and the fixed stars. In example, Alcyone is white giant and does not share in the redness of Aldebaran. However, colour does probably not offer a satisfacory explaination of celestial influence/associations.

Rigor doe in this "Power of the Fixed Stars" (1979) say that of all the stars in the Pleiades, Alcylone is more a positve nature, while the rest are of a direful nature. I don't know where he is getting it from, or if he is just making it up. I have my doubts whether this work can be used as a reference at all. :???:
http://www.astronor.com

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As far as the planetary associations of the fixed stars, Ptolemy only claimed that his work gave ?the observations of the effects of the fixed stars themselves as made by our predecessors? (Robbins, p.59).
According to Al H. Morrison, Ptolemy was a 'copy-cat' typist - although I think we probably all will give him more credit than that.
I'm glad you said that. The phrase ?copy-cat? typist shows a lack of understanding of why the Tetrabiblos is a valued text. Traditionally, and certainly in the era when books and manuscripts were scarce and each one had to be reproduced by hand, astrological authors aimed to preserve rather than innovate, and readers expected to access traditionally attested knowledge, not personal opinion.

The importance of these associations is not that they were Ptolemy?s own, but that they are time-honoured. We should be grateful that in Ptolemy?s work we have at least some clear references to ancient star associations. This doesn?t mean that we have to take them up without challenge, of course, but I also wish we were able to discover more about the sources that Ptolemy used, and establish how widespread these associations actually were.

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Andrew J. Bevan wrote:You've got me wrong on that. Lilly, Sibly, Pearce, Robson all refer to Ptolemy. According to Al H. Morrison, Ptolemy was a 'copy-cat' typist (take the pun) - although I think we probably all will give him more credit than that. Ptolemy seems to have collected and catalogized the mainstream of astrological knowledge of his time. Nobody is suggesting he invented it.
I agree completely with you.

For some reason the Tetrabiblos has up until now received more attention than other works as a major work classical reference. I have not yet found anything that takes me beyond Ptolemy that explains whether Pleiades should be associated with Moon & Mars or Moon & Jupiter. Therefore the question is open.
Well, Manilius was lost till Renaissance...Still hellenistic sources were known, like the chapter on paranatellonta in Liber Hermetis.
And Firmicus writes in IV century, and his book is not exactly a prose version of Manilius, more likely both authors are using the same source, which is different from Ptolemy.

About Moon/Mars or Moon/Jupiter I have not the answer, obviously.
Still I believe that for some stars like Pleiades, heralding spring and autumn, we could easily find other sources, like Latin calendars.
Rome was an agrarian culture before being an Empire, we don't forget this.
And Pleiades were traditional stormy and earthquake bringers...
Colour has sometimes been used to describe the quality or nature of the planets and the fixed stars. In example, Alcyone is white giant and does not share in the redness of Aldebaran. However, colour does probably not offer a satisfacory explaination of celestial influence/associations.
Colour is important, anyway there could be more, I agree again.
Rigor doe in this "Power of the Fixed Stars" (1979) say that of all the stars in the Pleiades, Alcylone is more a positve nature, while the rest are of a direful nature. I don't know where he is getting it from, or if he is just making it up. I have my doubts whether this work can be used as a reference at all. :???:
No idea about this, if I find some reference I will post it.
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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Hello Ea,

Thanks for clearing up the Schmidt translation position on this. There was I finding all those complicated explanations and I missed out it could just be a translation issue. Oh well it was fun exploring the other options! With Ashmand, Schmidt and Bezza all favoring Moon and Mars that does leave the Robbins translation looking rather isolated.

In a way I prefer the Moon and Mars as it fits better with the Mesopotanian sources and the Vedic tradition. I see no compelling reason to exclusively restrict our astrological interpretation to the Graeco-Roman world-view when it comes to star-lore. Nevertheless, clarifying the traditional sources is a different matter.

Margherita,
And Pleiades were traditional stormy and earthquake bringers...
Again the overlap with the Hyades is interesting. Ptolemy notes the Pleiades are marked by earthquakes, winds and mists while the Hyades are associated with Fire, thunder and lightning.

Incidentally, I checked out Ben Dykes translation of Guido Bonatti's 'Book of Astronomy'. Dont ask me why but Bonatti has the Pleiades of the nature of the Moon and Mercury! :???:

Got to dash now.

Mark

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Hi,
Incidentally, I checked out Ben Dykes translation of Guido Bonatti's 'Book of Astronomy'. Dont ask me why but Bonatti has the Pleiades of the nature of the Moon and Mercury! :???:
Could this have anything to do with the fact that the Pleiades are marked with winds, I wonder? Mercury is after all the planet of winds.

Just a thought.

Ea

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Hi, I thought that maybe some of you would be interested in one of the American Indian legends surrounding Pleiades.

This is from www.firstpeople.us

An Onondaga Legend
A long time ago a party of Indians went through the woods toward a good hunting-ground, which they had long known. They traveled several days through a very wild country, going on leisurely and camping by the way.

At last they reached Kan-ya-ti-yo, "the beautiful lake," where the gray rocks were crowned with great forest trees. Fish swarmed in the waters, and at every jutting point the deer came down from the hills around to bathe or drink of the lake. On the hills and in the valleys were huge beech and chestnut trees, where squirrels chattered, and bears came to take their morning and evening meals.

The chief of the band was Hah-yah-no, "Tracks in the water," and he halted his party on the lake shore that he might return thanks to the Great Spirit for their safe arrival at this good hunting-ground. "Here will we build our lodges for the winter, and may the Great Spirit, who has prospered us on our way, send us plenty of game, and health and peace." The Indian is always thankful.

The pleasant autumn days passed on. The lodges had been built, and hunting had prospered, when the children took a fancy to dance for their own amusement. They were getting lonesome, having little to do, and so they met daily in a quiet spot by the lake to have what they called their jolly dance. They had done this a long time, when one day a very old man came to them. They had seen no one like him before. He was dressed in white feathers, and his white hair shone like silver. If his appearance was strange, his words were unpleasant as well. He told them they must stop their dancing, or evil would happen to them. Little did the children heed, for they were intent on their sport, and again and again the old man appeared, repeating his warning.

The mere dances did not afford all the enjoyment the children wished, and a little boy, who liked a good dinner, suggested a feast the next time they met. The food must come from their parents, and all these were asked when they returned home. "You will waste and spoil good victuals," said one. "You can eat at home as you should," said another, and so they got nothing at all. Sorry as they were for this, they met and danced as before. A little to eat after each dance would have made them happy indeed. Empty stomachs cause no joy.

One day, as they danced, they found themselves rising little by little into the air, their heads being light through hunger. How this happened they did not know, but one said, "Do not look back, for something strange is taking place." A woman, too, saw them rise, and called them back, but with no effect, for they still rose slowly above the earth. She ran to the camp, and all rushed out with food of every kind, but the children would not return, though their parents called piteously after them. But one would even look back, and he became a falling star. The others reached the sky, and are now what we call the Pleiades, and the Onondagas Oot-kwa-tah. Every falling or shooting star recalls the story, but the seven stars shine on continuously, a pretty band of dancing children.
Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

The King James and the Pleiades

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This is an interesting quote I came across while studying the Old Testament. The professor had studied at Hebrew Union college and was well aware of the importance of astrology in ancient Hebrew culture. It was a shock to his conservative Christian midwestern students, but he was quite vigorous in his defense of the importance of astrology in the Bible. I am quoting the King James version. You will see that King James translators were decidedly uncomfortable with some of this explicit astrological language and attempted to bury it in transliteration of the word, "Mazzaroth", which in the original Hebrew literally describes the band of constellations of the Zodiac.

Job 38:31

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

In context, God is challenging Job, naming the tasks that God performs and rhetorically asking if Job is capable of achieving any of them. Interestingly, we see a flash of the double nature of the Pleiades: God himself says they have "sweet influences," but on the other hand God has bound those sweet influences, presumably as a means or a result of his branding the dominion of the heavens in the earth (astrological influences). God's "binding" of the Pleaides may also allude to the seasonal period leading up to the the warmth of spring, which is marked in many cultures by the rising of this star cluster.

Taken together, this passage is a strong argument for the validity of astrology from a Biblical perspective, although not everyone is open enough to hear it.

In another ancient culture entirely--

In ancient Celtic astrology, Beltaine (around May 1) marked the beginning of the new year and Saturn conjunct the Pleiades marked the beginning of a new a thirty-year cycle. New year for the Celts was a time of letting go of the old, forgiveness of wrongs done, and undertaking the new year afresh. Both weeping and rejoicing were not unexpected reactions to this radical yearly event.

Best,

Pam
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

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Hello Pam,

I haven't had the opportunity to post on skyscript for months due to time constraints so my apology for the delay picking up this thread again.

Thanks for the Old Testament sources.
In ancient Celtic astrology, Beltaine (around May 1) marked the beginning of the new year and Saturn conjunct the Pleiades marked the beginning of a new a thirty-year cycle. New year for the Celts was a time of letting go of the old, forgiveness of wrongs done, and undertaking the new year afresh. Both weeping and rejoicing were not unexpected reactions to this radical yearly event.
I have to state I am a bit sceptical about a lot of the information floating around claiming to be ''Celtic astrology''. One has to be very judicious in the sources you rely on. We know extremely little about Celtic Astrology and Astronomy and most of our sources are Roman. Where did you source the information on Saturn? I have not seen that before.