skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Book III of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Notes on Dorotheus III: the haylāj, Kadhkhudāh, and terms of life
by Deborah Houlding
Godfather of Modernity: The Alan Leo Legacy Vol. One - Early Astrological Journals 1890-1912, compiled by Philip M Graves
Reviewed by Deborah Houlding
Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Pleiades - Aladdin's Lamp
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4614
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Pleiades - Aladdin's Lamp Reply with quote

Pleiades - The Lamp of Aladdin

Having worked with charts and plotted the fixed stars for a couple of decades, my understanding of their effects has gradually grown from reading the teachings passed on by others to collecting my own personal notes on how the certain stars appeared to perform in practice. I have a list of personal favourites and the cluster of stars called the Pleiades, presently in the 30th degree of Taurus, was an early-comer to list of objects to be held under observation. There is something Royal and Majestic about the Pleiades, but the first thing I read was that the Pleiades, like any other cluster of nebulae, could be bad for the eyesight! I would like to introduce the concept of the Pleiades representing the 'Lamp of Aladdin' and I am sure the image will easily capture the imagination of any observer spotting the Pleiades in the Sky. The cluster appears like a tiny version of the ’Big Dipper’, so imagine something small, something with a handle, like a tiny lamp. It’s magical. Rub it or wipe it – and out pops a genie ready to grant your wishes, and whatever the genie performs, you’ll be rubbing those eyes again to believe whatever it is you see.

Goldstein-Jacobsen refered to Pleiades as the ’Weeping Sisters’, so that ’any planet or angle in this place would denote something to weep about.’ That’s interesting, because the practice of weeping can and will effect the eyesight and leave you in a haze in an intermediate context. But the aspect of weeping is not necessarily a negative. Tears may represent mourning or grief, but they can also be an expression of joy and admiration of beauty. Tears represent an emotional release that has an effect of embrace, consilidation and healing. In our moment of quietness and listening to the spirit it is custom to light either a lamp or a candle.

My early notes on Pleiades expanded upon the idea of anything that wept or showed tears. In association with Venus I found that this could represent grapes, which actually looks like a bundle of tears. And if you are stuck for gift ideas of what to take to someone who is feeling down in the dumps, you might want to take them a bunch of grapes. Grapes are like a token of reconciliation, forgiveness and comfort. You wine and shead a tear, or you take the tear, concealed in the grape, and make wine. Bacchus, the god of wine, is the god of forgiveness. Or in another context, Jesus, called the winebribber, who is to have made wine out of water, not only forgives our sins but is considered, if not a genie, then certainly a miracle-maker.

In astro-meteorology Pleiades is associated with moisture, raindrops and rain. The name Pleiades comes from the Greek and means ‘the pigeons’. While pigeons may by some be considered as rather humble among birds it is equally true that that have been used for sending messages. Ebertin refers to the Pleiades as 'the clucking hen'. Something to do with the size but multitude of raindrops, the blessing of the grape and the humbleness of the pigeon and clucking hen, this caused me to draw an association between Pleiades and penny farthings. Or the smallest unit of currency held in any country. If it isn’t raining pennies from heaven, it may be raining raindrops, which is a symbol of not only sorrow and mourning, but also forgiveness. You bless a penny. I recall a full moon appearing with Pleiades when the Norwegains decided to withdraw their smallest coin unit, the 10 öre, equivalent to the penny, from public circulation. Among fish in the sea I think that the Pleaides would signify the herring.

When combining Jupiter with Pleiades I found myself drawing associations with trees that wept – like a weeping willow or a weeping birch. I had a horary where the location of the querent was described by Jupiter conjunct Pleiades and the querent had a magnificent birch that wept right outside his parlor window. Anything that weeps must be considered as either a reservoir or source of water, so with the same client I suggested that a spring of water would be close at hand, which the person confirmed to be perfectly true.

Most sources seem to quote Ptolemy and say that the Pleiades represent a combination of the natures of the Moon and Mars, but my edition of Tetrabiblos says that the Pleiades have a temperature like that of the Moon and Jupiter, which is a view that Bearnette Bradly appears to agree with. I think there is an intresting story and qualitative difference relating to the nearby influence of the fixed star Algol. Algol is probably the star that has lowest repute in the whole zodiac. She is a variable star and a propper witch and spellbinder, you never know quite where you have got her. Algol is like the 13th Fairy Godmother in the tale of Sleeping Beauty. Due to a state of jealosy and vermin she will trick and deceive you and then put you to sleep. Algol deals with fascination, enchantment and incapcitation. With Algol you loose your head or ability to act. Pleiades, on the other hand, is like the genie in the lamp that has the ability to perform wonders that will amaze you and fill you with awe. This is the true blessing of your Fairy Godmother, but it is best that you get back home on the right side of midnight and do not exceed nature’s blassings.

Recently I have noticed how several of my clients with Pleaides prominent in their chart have been closely connected to the oil industry. Their tasks may either be administrative or relate to the science and research of the utilization of the oil wells and reservior resources. Oil is not only one of the most important and magical resources of modern civilisation, it is also simple and most basic fuel that is contained and burns within an Oil lamp, Aladdin’s Lamp. Rub the Lamp and you will be rubbing your eyes. Some of the blessings and virtues of Pleiades may be gather from its angular relationship to the fixed star Regulus, but to stick with myth, Pleiades is like the 12th Fairy Godmother that comes after the Witch in the fairy tale of Sleeping Beauty and put things right again. The Princess is not dead, only sleeping and the kiss of a Prince, or lighter, is the magic that will ignite her and bring her back to life, light and beauty.

I do feel that there is something in Mankind that yearns towards Pleiades. I don’t find this described in astrology books, but I do find the star to conceal messages of beauty, awe and wonder. Rub the lamp and set free the Genius – I propose that the Lamp of Aladdin needs to be curbed or requires some act of wisdom but has the potential of elevating Mankind and is a blessing when cultivated for the correct purposes.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4194
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Andrew

Quote:
Most sources seem to quote Ptolemy and say that the Pleiades represent a combination of the natures of the Moon and Mars, but my edition of Tetrabiblos says that the Pleiades have a temperature like that of the Moon and Jupiter, which is a view that Bearnette Bradly appears to agree with.


Interesting point!

Your right Ptolemy is clear in Tetrabiblos these stars are of the nature of the Moon and Jupiter:

Quote:
Of those in Taurus, the stars along the line where it is cut off a have a temperature like that of Venus and in a measure like that of Saturn; those in the Pleiades, like those of the moon and Jupiter; of the stars in the head, the one of the Hyades that is bright and somewhat reddish, called the Torch, (Aldebaran) has a temperature like that of Mars; the others, like that of Saturn and moderately like that of Mercury; those in the tips of the horns, like that of Mars.
The Tetrabiblos, Book 1 (9), Claudius Ptolemy


I should make the point Bernadette Brady totally rejects the traditional idea of the planetary nature of stars. I am not sure that I entirely agree that your interpretation ( Jupiter link I mean) really finds much support from Brady. Moreover, the fact Brady does not give these stars a malefic interpretation tells us little. Brady systematically goes out of her way to avoid presenting any fixed star as malefic. She is keen to counter what she perceives as the fatalistic, 'hell and brimestone' approach to fixed stars in astrology which she links to figures like Vivian Robsion.

Brady summarises her interpretation of the meaning of these stars as follows:

Quote:
'The main star in the Pleiades and therefore by tradition linked to eyesight problems. However, the Pleiades was recognised by many ancient cultures well before the Greeks were connected to the dead and the judgement of the dead. The Celts thought of November, which began with All Hallow's Eve as well as All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day, as the month of the dead because the Pleiades used to set as the Sun rose at that time of the year. Alcyone is a powerful star which picks up these statements and is connected to visions and mystical abilities but also ruthless judgment. Key Theme: Mystical but judgemental’
(Bernadette Brady, Solar Fire delineation of star)


Nevertheless, I hope to demonstrate the association with Jupiter and more positive themes does have a basis in the ancient Greek tradition. The myth of the 7 Pleiades or 'Atlantides' is explained here by Deborah Houlding:

Quote:
''..The Pleiades is a nebulous cluster of stars, all contained within one degree of longitude, located on the shoulder of the Bull. In myth they eternalise the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione, daughter of Oceanus - Maia, Taygete, Electra, Alcyone, Asterope, Kelaino and Merope. Alcyone, a 3rd magnitude greenish-yellow star is the brightest, and generally taken as a reference point for the group.

According to one version of the myth, the Seven Sisters committed suicide through grief at their father's everlasting task of having to support the world on his shoulders, his punishment for fighting with the Titans against the gods of Mount Olympus. Another claims they were the attendants of Artemis who were pursued by the giant hunter Orion. They were rescued by the gods who changed them into doves and after death placed them in the heavens a little away from the gaze of Orion.
Skyscript article on constellation of Taurus, Deborah Houlding


These associations are very ancient. For example the Greek writer Aratus states in the 3rd century BC:

Quote:
Pleiades: Near his left thigh move the Pleiades, all in a cluster, but small is the space that holds them and singly they dimly shine. Seven are they in the songs of men, albeit only six are visible to the eyes. Yet not a star, I ween, has perished from the sky unmarked since the earliest memory of man, but even so the tale is told. Those seven are called by name Halcyone, Merope, Celaeno, Electra, Sterope, Taygete, and queenly Maia. Small and dim are they all alike, but widely famed they wheel in heaven at morn and eventide, by the will of Zeus, who bade them tell of the beginning of Summer and of Winter and of the coming of the ploughing-time. Aratus of Soli [c 315 - 240 BC] in Phaenomena ["


Even further back the Greek writer Hesiod ( 8th century BC) also refers to the Pleiades in his agricultural poem Works and Days, and instructs farmers to begin harvesting when the Pleiades rise at dawn, which in Greek times would have been in May, and to plough when they set at dawn, which would have been in November.

Note there is no emphasis on negative associations in either Aratus or Hesiod. I would suggest all this emphasis on planting crops and fertility of the land may be why these stars acquired a link to benefic Jupiter for astrologers like Ptolemy. I think this also explains why they are known as 'the sweet Pleiades' in the book of Job in the Old Testament.

Deborah Houlding's article on the constellation of Taurus lists mentions the stars are of the nature of the Moon and Jupiter:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/taurus_myth.html

Here is the key selection:
Quote:
The Pleiades are also one of the most noted objects in the sky, with reference to their 'sweet' influence frequently found in ancient literature and poems. Astrologically, however, despite being described as having a nature like the Moon and Jupiter, they have also accumulated an unfortunate reputation for immorality and disorder, as well as the tradition for blindness and injuries to the eyes that is common to all nebulous clusters.


On the other hand in their table of fixed stars attributed to Ptolemy Luis Ribeiro and Helena Avelar list the stars of the nature of Moon and Mars.

http://www.academyofastrology.org/resources/Fixedstarstable.pdf

I can only assume Ribeiro and Avelar have confused Ptolemy's planetary associations with a source found in later medieval astrology?

How does Mars get linked to these stars then?

I see four possibilities:

1 Confusion between the Pleiades and Hyades? The way Ptolemy uses to describe stars makes it quite ambiguous sometimes which ones he is referring to. However, this isn't one of those occasions. Still, certain star groups can easily be confused by a simple description. For example references to the star clusters of the Hyades and Pleiades in the constellation of Taurus. You will note in the quote from Ptolemy above he states the bright star in the Hyades star cluster or head of the Bull (Aldebaran which Prolemy calls 'Torch') is of the nature of Mars. I suggest later astrologers simply confused this with the planetary nature of the Pleiades. It seems to me this is probably the most plausible explanation for the change over in association. Moreover I suspect the mythology of the Pleiades and Hyades got mixed up in later astrology!

The face of Taurus is marked by the V-shaped group of stars called the Hyades. Ovid in his Fasti asserts that the name comes from the old Greek word hyein, meaning ‘to rain’, so that Hyades means ‘rainy ones’, because their rising at certain times of year was said to be a sign of rain. In mythology the Hyades were the daughters of Atlas and Aethra the Oceanid. Their eldest brother was Hyas, a bold hunter who one day was killed by a lioness. His sisters wept inconsolably – Hyginus says they died of grief – and for this they were placed in the sky. The sisters tears in mourning for their dead brother fell as rain on earth.

So when horary astrologers discuss ''something to weep about'' whenever a planet or angle is linked to the Pleiades are they simply confusing the lore of the Pleiades with the Hyades?

Actually, it seems both the Pleiades and Hyades are linked to loss, and grieving. Although the emphasis on weeping seems more evident in the case of the Hyades. However, I want to do more research on the earliest sources of these myths before reaching any conclusion.

One of the oldest surviving versions of the myth is related by the first century Roman writer Gaius Julius Hyginus (ca. 64 BC – AD 17):

Quote:
The Pleiades were so named, according to Musaeaus, because fifteen daughters were born to Atlas and Aethra, daughter of Ocean. Five of them are called Hyades, he shows, because their brother was Hyas, a youth dearly beloved by his sisters. When he was killed in a lion hunt, the five we have mentioned, given over to continual lamentation, are said to have perished. Because they grieved exceedingly at his death, they are called Hyades. The remaining ten brooded over the death of their sisters, and brought death on themselves; because so many experienced the same grief, they were called Pleiades. Alexander says they were called Hyades because they were daughters of Hyas and Boeotia, Pleiades, because born of Pleio, daughter of Ocean, and Atlas. Astronomica, Hyginus.


So with the familial links in the mythology, the astronomical proximity and the fact some sources talk about seven Hyades its hardly surprising these get confused with the seven Pleiades or seven sisters. It also seems that both the Pleiades and Hyades have similar lore connected to the agricultural cycle and rain falling.

For example, in the Arabic tradition the term meaning 'full', 'many' or 'plural' and a derivative Arabic name Al Thurayya, eaning 'Abundance', was argued by Al-Biruni to refer to both the appearance of the Pleiades and to the effect that their attendant rain had upon the crops.

Certainly, the descrpition Manilius gives to the nature of the Hyades is very Mars like which fits better with the later association of the Pleiades to the Moon and Mars:

Quote:
The Hyades are a stormy star group and was regarded as a separate constellation. Always stirring up furious quarrels; enemies of quiet and peace, inflames the minds of individuals who are restless and riotous, always stirring up popular dissent and revolution, madly desiring civil and domestic wars". Those born at this time take no pleasure in tranquillity and set no store by a life of inaction; rather they yearn for crowds and mobs and civil disorders. Sedition and uproar delight them; they long for the Gracchi to harangue from the platform, for a secession to the Sacred Mount, leaving but a handful of citizens the at Rome; they welcome fights which break the peace and provide sustenance for fears. Such are the qualities engendered by the Hyades at the rising of their stars. (Manilus, book 5 of Astronomica, 1st century AD).


There is clearly room for more research in this area to try to pick between all this lore.

2 The Influence of Manilius & Firmicus? The astrological reputation of these stars starts with Manilius and Dorotheus (1st century AD) but it seems to be the 4th century Roman astrologer Firmicus who really builds on the negative associations of these stars. Nevertheless, there are clear suggestions in Manilius of these stars being linked to narcissim and sexual peversion ( as perceived then ie homosexuality)

...
Quote:
the Bull brings forth in his sixth degree the Pleiades, sisters who vie with each other's radiance. Beneath their influence devotees of Bacchus and Venus are born into the kindly light, and people whose insouciance runs free at feasts and banquets and who will strive to provoke sweet mirth with biting wit. They will always take pains over personal adornment and an elegant appearance: they will set their locks in waves of curls or confine their tresses with bands, building them into a thick topknot, and they will transform the appearance of the head by adding hair to it: they will smooth their hairy limbs with the porous pumice, loathing their manhood and craving for sleekness of arm. They adopt feminine dress, footwear donned not for wear but for show, and an affected effeminate gait. They are ashamed of their sex; in their hearts dwells a senseless passion for display, and they boast of their malady, which they call a virtue. To give their love is never enough, they want their love to be seen. Manilius, Astronomica, 5.140-157 (Loeb p.311).


Firmicus further develops this theme implicitly suggesting a nature for these stars that sounds like a debilitated Venus or Venus in combination with Saturn. Firmicus links these stars to hedonism, sexual promiscuity and sexual deviance. That tradition is continued by later astrologers from Lilly down to Ebertin.

Where did Firmicus and Manilius get such ideas from? Possibly from the mythology itself in terms of licentiousness and sexuality overcoming ethics. For example, Alcyone is the brightest star in the cluster. According to mythology, Alcyone and Celaeno were both seduced by Poseidon. Maia, the eldest and most beautiful of the sisters, was seduced by Zeus and gave birth to Hermes; she later became foster-mother to Arcas, son of Zeus and Callisto. Zeus also seduced two others of the Pleiades: Electra, who gave birth to Dardanus, the founder of Troy; and Taygete, who gave birth to Lacedaemon, founder of Sparta. Asterope was ravished by Ares and became mother of Oenomaus, king of Pisa, near Olympia, who features in the legend of Auriga. Hence six Pleiades became effectively 'raped' by the Gods. Only Merope married a mortal, Sisyphus, a notorious trickster who was subsequently condemned to roll a stone eternally up a hill.

I accept I have only made a case for a debiltated Venus or Venus-Saturn nature. However, perhaps later astrologers saw all this fitting better with Mars as the lesser malefic? Especially, if the lore of the Hyades and Pleiades were getting confused. Moreover, astrololgers have always been willing to evaluate traditional lore in the light of experience. For example, Lilly disagreed with Ptolemy on Algol (Ptolemy= Jupiter and Saturn ) and decided its malefic reputation was better described as of the nature of Saturn and Mars.

3 Vedic Star-Lore. It may have been an influence from Vedic astrology in the middle ages along with other Vedic influences such as increased emphasis on the lunar nodes. ( see note on Indian Star-Lore and the Pleiades star cluster below)

4 Mesopotanian Star-lore. The Mars link to these stars may be a survival of the Babylonian lore on these stars passed on to hellenistic astrology (excluding Ptolemy)
See note on Mesopotanian star-lore and the Pleiades below. I have no access to any of my hellenistic texts at present so I have no idea what associations they list.

Irrespective of how Mars became linked to later traditional associations with the Pleiades there is no doubt that the Mesopotanian and Indian astrologers considered these stars were strongly of the nature of Mars.

Mesopotanian
Quote:
‘The regents of the star cluster (Pleiades) are a group of battle-inciting deities called the Seven Gods, in Akkadian the Sebetti. They are found in the entourage of Erra the god of war, plague and death….the star cluster is one of the most frequently used names for the violent and malevolent planet Mars. The attribution is primarily derived dfrom the Sebetti being attendant upon the god Erra-Nergal, who is closely associated with Mars in astrology’ (Babylonian Star-Lore-Gavin White)


Indian
In ancient India the star cluster called the Pleiades was associated with six goddesses.
Quote:
’they acted as nurses to an infant God called Skanda or Karttikeya who was born in the Pleiades and grew up to become the leader of the armies of the gods. In Hindu astrology , this god is associated with the planet Mars the archetype of the warrior.

As might be expected , given the Martian symbolism associated with this ‘Star of Fire’ , Pleidian people are fiery characters with intense, powerful emotions. This mansion is said to be governed or ‘ruled’ by the ancient Vedic god Agni, who is the symbol of fire itself. The name Krittka, however, is related to the name Karttikeya, the God Skanda but also signifies a razor.. and indeed the razor is the principal symbol of mansion 3. These natives are sharp and cutting’ ( Mansions of the Moon-Kenneth Johnson)


I find an interesting link between the Mars associations of these stars and Brady's reference to the Celtic tradition and death. In Ancient China these stars were seen as celestial makers of invasion by 'foreign devils' when they flickered. The ancient Chinese lunar mansion they fall in also has links to death. The Maori star-lore has some interesting connections too but perhaps I digress....

Quote:
I do feel that there is something in Mankind that yearns towards Pleiades. I don’t find this described in astrology books, but I do find the star to conceal messages of beauty, awe and wonder. Rub the lamp and set free the Genius – I propose that the Lamp of Aladdin needs to be curbed or requires some act of wisdom but has the potential of elevating Mankind and is a blessing when cultivated for the correct purposes.


I agree. As we saw earlier cultivation and the Pleiades go together! It is fascinating that just about every culture on earth has lore connected to the Pleiades. Much of it very similar. Moreover, the Pleiades are strongly linked into the western mystical tradition. Thus esoteric teachers like Madame Blatavsky and Rudolph Steiner gave them emphasis in their teachings. The Ancient Indian Lunar mansions and the Babylonian original lunar zodiac based on 18 constellations on the path of the Moon all began with the Pleiades. This is probably a reflection of their antiquity and harks back to the time astronomically when the vernal/spring equinox took place in the constellation of Taurus approximately, 4000 B.C. Long before the tropical zodiac emerged the Mesopotanians regarded it highly desirable to have the Moon passing over Taurus/the Pleiades. This was a precusror of the idea of the exaltation of the Moon in Taurus. The idea that the Pleiades were the centre of the galaxy seems to be very old too and has only been discredited fairly recently with the discovery of the galactic centre.

Maybe their Ingress into Gemini is telling us something?

PS Alcycone the brightest star in the cluster and several others in the group have now migrated by precession into the tropical sign of Gemini. The astrological influence of the cluster is therefore now strongest around the last half of the 30th degree of Taurus and the first half of the first degree of Gemini. In terms of zodical spread the Pleiades are tightly packed between Electra at 29.32 Taurus and Pleione at 00.30 Gemini. Alcyone, the Pleiades brightest star and often seen as its heart is at 00.07 Gemini. (2008 positions)

The Hyades star cluster are much more spread out and staddle several degrees in the tropical sign of Gemini. They comprise: Prima Hyadum (5.55), Hyadum II (6.59), Ain ( 8.35) and Aldebaran (9.54) (2008 positions)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Pleiades - Aladdin's Lamp Reply with quote

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:
I think there is an intresting story and qualitative difference relating to the nearby influence of the fixed star Algol. Algol is probably the star that has lowest repute in the whole zodiac. She is a variable star and a propper witch and spellbinder, you never know quite where you have got her. Algol is like the 13th Fairy Godmother in the tale of Sleeping Beauty. Due to a state of jealosy and vermin she will trick and deceive you and then put you to sleep. Algol deals with fascination, enchantment and incapcitation. With Algol you loose your head or ability to act. Pleiades, on the other hand, is like the genie in the lamp that has the ability to perform wonders that will amaze you and fill you with awe. This is the true blessing of your Fairy Godmother, but it is best that you get back home on the right side of midnight and do not exceed nature’s blessings.

The whole article was interesting and especially these notes about Algol were right to the point IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your right Ptolemy is clear in Tetrabiblos these stars are of the nature of the Moon and Jupiter:

The Tetrabiblos, Book 1 (9), Claudius Ptolemy


Hello, Mark and Andrew,
from which translation is taken this quote?
My version says Moon and Mars Sad
Anyway Bezza gives alternative translations too, Moon and Jupiter is listed as from Valentin Naibod.
Anyway at least reading from Bezza it seems is a secondary translation, the most common is Moon and Mars.

According tradition in fact Pleiades are very stormy stars. Jean Stade writes:

"The setting and the rising of stromy stars as Pleiades and Hyades, when signifying rainy storms, kill the growth of vine and olive trees"

And in nativities:

"Pleiades and Hyades especially rising with the Sun or the Moon makes leaders, emperors, tribunes, judges."

but "Pleiades with Moon, if Mars behold them, sedition and madness"

Have a nice Sunday,
Margherita
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4194
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My version says Moon and Mars


Interesting. Lets pin down Ptolemy or at least hellenistic sources before we start discussing later medieval astrologers. I checked the J.M. Ashmand English translation (1822) and he does state the Moon and Mars. However, in the later English translation by Frank Egleston Robbins in the Loeb Classical Library (1940) the nature of the Pleiades is stated to be of the Moon and Jupiter. This is the quote I gave above. I have heard before the Ashmand translation was not really completely accurate is it relied on a less authentic source than Robbins.

The last English translation of the Tetrabiblos was by Robert Schmidt in the 1990's. It would be very interesting to compare his translation on this issue.

Has anyone out there got a copy and willing to tell us what Schmidt says? The relevant section we are discussing is Book 1, Chapter 9, entitled 'Of The Power of The Fixed Stars'.

It would be good to tie this confusion up. If its Jupiter and the Moon it hints more to an indigenous hellenistic tradition of star-lore being recounted by Ptolemy while the Moon and Mars would co-incide better with the Mesopotanian and Vedic traditions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I have heard before the Ashmand translation was not really completely accurate is it relied on a less authentic source than Robbins.


Well, Bezza too translates from Greek..
And Ashmand one is not directly from Ptolemy, true, but from Proclus' version of Ptolemy.

Maybe the difference depends on which manuscript translators considered because some Renaissance versions show Mars (for example Melanchton) and others (Naibod) Jupiter.

Margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4194
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe the difference depends on which manuscript translators considered because some Renaissance versions show Mars (for example Melanchton) and others (Naibod) Jupiter


Fascinating. It appears this confusion on the planetary nature of the Pleiades has a long heritage. Confused

Not surprisingly Vivian Robson in his highly influential 'The Fixed Stars and Constellations in Astrology' (1927) states the Pleiades are unambiguously of the nature of of the Moon and Mars.

Quote:
According to Ptolemy they are of the nature of the Moon and Mars; and, to Alvidas, of Mars, Moon and Sun in opposition. They are said to make their natives wanton, ambitious, turbulent, optimistic and peaceful; to give many journeys and voyages, success in agriculture and through active intelligence; and to cause blindness, disgrace and a violent death. Their influence is distinctly evil and there is no astrological warrant for the oft-quoted passage Job (xxxviii. 31)" Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades? "which is probably a mistranslation''
'The Fixed Stars and Constellation in Astrology' (1927) Vivian Robson


Vivian Robson was undoubtably influenced by the Ashmand translation as the Robbins translation was not yet produced in his time. Still, long before this William Lilly seems to have equated the Pleiades with a Mars like nature (possibly in a lesser way with Venus too- hence its link to sensuality and sexuality). The latter emphasis alludes back to the influence of Manilius and Firmicus I already mentioned.

Quote:
The Pleiades inclines the native to be wanton, ambitious, turbulent.
William Lilly, Christian Astrology, 1647, p.536.


Even more clearly on the direction of the Midheaven to this star cluster Lilly states:

Quote:
.... violently thrusts the native into troublesome, pernicious and dangerous businesses, wranglings and controversies occasioned by women. It occasions sudden and unexpected quarrels and rash actions, sometimes murders or stabs, imprisonment, &c. It doth also portend in some genitures sudden preferment, but an unlucky end thereof. This is to be understood, where the radix of the nativity is unfortunate.
William Lilly, Christian astrology, 1647, p.667-668.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:

Still, long before this William Lilly seems to have equated the Pleiades with a Mars like nature (possibly in a lesser way with Venus too- hence its link to sensuality and sexuality).


I checked Cardano in his comment to Tetrabiblos and he mentions Mars too.
I''m not sure which translation Cardano was commenting. Maybe Camerarius...If so it should be the same as Melanchton.
I'm a little confused here, Bezza writes Melanchton in Camerarius book.
Maybe some experts of old books...


Quote:
The latter emphasis alludes back to the influence of Manilius and Firmicus I already mentioned.


Because Manilius (Firmicus is more or less the prose version) gives to the 4 royal stars a very violent nature, very different from the fixed signs to whom they are associated.

In this case Aldebaran is simply the star following the Pleiades

Margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4194
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Margherita,

Quote:
Because Manilius (Firmicus is more or less the prose version) gives to the 4 royal stars a very violent nature, very different from the fixed signs to whom they are associated.


I am reserving judgement on Firmicus on such topics until a better translation is available in English from James Holden next year.

In any case , that is not what I was referring too. I meant the references in Manilius and Firmicus linking the Pleiades with narcissism, hedonism, excessive sensuality and sexual deviance. Hence I was making a case for an association giving the Pleiades a (Mars-Venus) nature. Note how Lilly links this star cluster to women in the quote earlier? I dont think this is an idiosyncracy of Lilly. It seems fully in the tradition laid out by Manilius and Firmicus.

Its interesting that Anonymous of 379 lists Aldebaran as of the nature of Mars and Venus and not just Mars like Ptolemy.


Last edited by Mark on Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4194
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Margherita,

Quote:
I'm a little confused here, Bezza writes Melanchton in Camerarius book. Maybe some experts of old books...


I was rather thinking of you in that category. On this forum at least the one eyed Latin reader is Queen!

One other point that may (or may not) be relevant here is that the Arabs and ancient Jews saw the Pleiades as part of the hind quaters of the the constellation of the Ram (Aries) rather than as part of the the constellation of the Bull (Taurus). That may have influenced the transmission of star-lore connected to the Pleiades in medieval europe.


Last edited by Mark on Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I am reserving judgement on Firmicus on such topics until a better translation is available in English from James Holden next year.


I want it too! Anyway French version from Belles Lettres is good too.

Quote:
In any case , that is not what I was referring too. I meant the references in Manilius and Firmicus linking the Pleiades with narcissism, hedonism, excessive sensuality and sexual deviance.


Touchèè Smile

Quote:
Hence I was making a case for an association giving the Pleiades a (Mars-Venus) nature. Note how Lilly links this star cluster to women in the quote earlier? I dont think this is an idiosyncracy of Lilly. It seems fully in the tradition laid out by Manilius and Firmicus.


What about Bonatti? Which is the exact reference? Do you know?

Quote:

I was rather thinking of you in that category.

I was thinking to Philip Graves to be honest

Quote:

On this forum at least the one eyed Latin reader is Queen!

Well, "Vergiliae Luna Martemque referunt " is not a great translation...
Anyway now I'm attending a proper Latin course with declinations and rosa, rosae, rosae, rosam so I hope to improve it.
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4194
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What about Bonatti? Which is the exact reference? Do you know?


Good point. I will have a look when I return. I am away now until the 29th.

However, if I recall correctly(?) Ben Dykes tells us in his introduction to The Book of Astronomy that Bonatti's fixed star sources are quite limited. He seems to rely almost exclusively, on Abu Ma'shar's ''The Flowers''.

He also has a most perplexing tendency to have totally unknown ''stars'' directly opposite well known stars that are a mystery to any star catalogues. This cannot be explained by precession either. It just doesn't make any sense in astronomical terms.

Dykes suspects the explanation may be that Bonatti was applying some kind of dualistic magical/mystical philosophy to the stars. Ironically, 17th century astrologers like Lilly and Coley seem to have used more extensive Arabic sources on the fixed stars (translated into Latin) than Bonatti. The record of William Lilly's library is proof of that.

Quote:
I was thinking to Philip Graves to be honest


Ah yes Philip's collection/knowledge is legendary! Still, you have an outstanding awareness of the reniassance Latin sources yourself and early writers like Manilius, Ptolemy, & Firmicus.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4614
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The National chart of Norway has MC28TA08 conj Pleiades, or Aladdin's Lamp - as I would like to suggest. The Norwegians have been historically poor as a nation, but this changed with their independence in 1905. So maybe a new national chart can change a nation's fortune. As fishermen they have historically been largely dependent on the herring, but of course the magic comes into the picture when they disovered their oil resources in the late 60's. The Oil rigs stuck out in the North sea actually remind of oil lamps, as they stand there burning like candles.

I have no other reference to Pleiades being of the nature of Jupiter and the Moon than the Loeb edition of Tetrabiblos and an article provided to me by MarkC. My appologies for incorrectly quoting Bernadette Brady. However, according to Pearce, a corruption of the hebrew word Chemasch (Day 5, 'the Star of Warmth', Jupiter) is Meshech, which means to anoint with oil. When observing Pleiades through a telescope you cannot be impressed by anything but that the construction of the constellation being 'plentiful'.

I'm just thinking out loud, because I can't explain how the fixed stars got to be associated with the planetary natures in the first place, probably mostly as a either coding or term of description, but if Pleiades is associated with rain and blurred vision or cloudiness in the eye, doesn't seem to resemble a Jupiterian association wiht Pisces, more than the nature of Mars?

There could also be a transformative aspect to be considered like Oil (Mars, Moon - which is pretty dirty and hard to get) transforms to Money and Wealth (Jupiter, Moon). Initially you are 'bottled up', but after you Weep, which indicates some emotional release or tapping of the 'Well', then you are set free. You either rub the Lamp (light) or your eyes (lights) to bring about the magic or transformation, and then it's as if you were given a magic carpet! No wonder the also called Pleiades the 'Clucking Hen'... Who wouldn't cluck with an oil-well in their back yard!?

I am probably taking this too far, but the uncertainity provides a delightful opportunity to consider the constellation's influence from new angles?

Great thread! Thanks!
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4194
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Andrew,

I suppose I was trying to come at this from an historical perspective in terms of the different lore associated wiith these stars in western astrology.

However, there is so much lore associated with the Pleiades across all cultures there are some undoubtably associations that come closer to the more positive interpretation you suggest.

You might want to check out this article on the Bible and the Pleiades

http://www.geocentricity.com/constellations/pleiades.pdf

I dont subscibe to the Christian mysticism of the author but he does bring out some extremely interesting connections in the Jewish and Christian and other traditions connected to the Pleiades that seem relevant to you. For example associations linked to 7 Angels, as well as connections to birds, a cup, grape-cluster, The Menorah (7 candlestick holder=symbol of Judaism), God of Fire ( Agni) in Hinduism, and even Noah's Ark!

Actually, I forgot to mention earlier there is a strong nautical link to the Pleiades in the Greek tradition too. To quote from Deb's excellent article again:

Quote:
The origin of the term Pleiades is not purely explained by the name of the mythological mother; many consider that it derives from the Greek term 'to sail' since the heliacal rising of the group in May coincided with the new season of navigation for the Greeks, and the stars were believed to have a strong influence upon the waters, being known as 'the sailor's stars'. Others consider it originates from the term meaning 'full', 'many' or 'plural' and a derivative Arabic name Al Thurayya, meaning 'Abundance', was argued by Al-Biruni to refer to both their appearance and to the effect that their attendant rain had upon the crops.

The nautical link certainly seems spot on for Norway.

In cultures like that of the ancient Celts the Pleiades seem to have symbolised both death and rebirth. The setting of the Pleiades, celebrated during the Autumn/Winter in November/December, brought with it death and endings; and the rising of the Pleiades, celebrated in the spring during March/April, came new birth and beginnings.

To the Bronze Age people of Europe, such as the Celts (and probably considerably earlier), the Pleiades were associated with mourning and with funerals, since at that time in history, on the cross-quarter day between the autumn equinox and the winter solstice, which was a festival devoted to the remembrance of the dead, the cluster rose in the eastern sky as the sun's light faded in the evening. It was from this acronychal rising that the Pleiades became associated with tears and mourning. As a result of precession over the centuries, the Pleiades no longer marked the festival, but the association has nevertheless persisted in festivals like Halloween, and may be another reason for the significance of the Pleiades astrologically.

Thus to ancient cultures like the Celts it was the disapperance of the Pleiades that had the connection to death. Their re-appearance was linked to life and rebirth.

To the Vikings, they were Freya's hens, and their name in many old European languages compares them to a hen with chicks.

For the Maori the new year festival of Matariki marks the time when the stars of the Pleiades rise in the north-eastern skies in late May or early June. This signals to Māori that the New Year will begin. In one tradition, Matariki is the mother surrounded by her six daughters, Tupu-a-nuku, Tupu-a-rangi, Waitī, Waitā, Waipuna-a-rangi and Ururangi.

In the Maya culture , the Pleiades form the basis of the Tzolk'in or sacred calendar of the Maya which is based on the cycles of the Pleiades. The cycle of the Pleiades uses 26,000 years, with the Sun orbiting Alcyone, the central star of the Pleiades, but is reflected in the calendar we are using by encompassing 260 days. Their calendar year began when the Maya priests first remarked the asterism rising heliacally in the east, immediately before the sun's dawn light obliterated the view of the stars. The Maya believed that they came from the Pleiades, or “Tzab-ek", (Rattlesnake's tail), as they are known by them.

More practically, The the Pleiades was linked by the Maya and Aztecs to agricultural key dates for planting and harvesting. Because this star cluster is near the ecliptic, the seasons can easily be distinguished from their heliacal rising and setting. There are four dates affiliated with the heliacal rising and setting of stars. These dates are based on the following occurrences; the first appearance of the star in the east before sunrise, the last day the star can be seen in the west before sunset, the last day the star appears rising in the east after sunset, and the first day it is visible setting in the west before sunrise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 50

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

What a wonderful discussion of the Fixed Stars. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Those thanks go to everybody else involved too, of course.

You wrote:
Has anyone out there got a copy and willing to tell us what Schmidt says? The relevant section we are discussing is Book 1, Chapter 9, entitled 'Of The Power of The Fixed Stars'.

I happen to have a borrowed copy at home at the moment. Here's what it says about the Pleiades:

"...those in the Pleiades, like the Moon and the stars of Ares..."

So one wonders why Robbins' translation has Moon and Jupiter. Good thing that you try to get this problem solved.

Erna
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated