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Winner of the Nov. 4th Election
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Winner of the Nov. 4th Election Reply with quote

I'm looking to try to determine who's chart is looking better;

Below is McCain's secondary progressed natal (inner wheel), transits (middle wheel), and natal (outer wheel).

Note that Lord of his Natal Asc., Venus, is on his MC and trined by a lunar return. Asc. Lord, Venus, is in mutual reception with Lord of his progressed MC, Mercury in the 10th. Mars is the almuten of his natal chart. It's progressed placement puts it conjoining the progressed MC.

With the polling putting Obama as much as double digits ahead, it seems improbable but it does look good for McCain. I will post Obama's next.

[/img]
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wouldn't moon at critical degree suggest a less than great chart? one of serious stress? I'm asking because progressed charts aren't something I know a great deal about.

He is a martian person so I can see Mars at MC being a good thing, but I've never had a good thing from a moon mars conj? but that is in reference to things like transits and solar return, not a progressed chart, so would love to hear thoughts on that.

On looking at past presidents I noticed that Clinton had a jupiter return shortly after he was elected and Obama appears to be having one shortly after this election. Considering to get as far as they've gotten they must both have very good charts that match up with us chart so... its a tough call good luck on your attempts!

Granny.
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RC



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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the tri-wheel with same charts for BO. His natal Saturn & Jupiter haved moved up from the 12th house to the 10th.

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raphnix



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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I'm interested to this predictions what is your basic interpretations and generalization from these data? Who will actually win the election? Are their association with these planets influenced their recent polls too?
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the record, consistent with this year's wild election cycle everyone's birth data has been called into question. In fact the birthplace of both individuals has been called into question. I'm not going into all that, but it should be noted that we can only do what we do with reasonably accurate data.

Public opinion polls once reflected the news - today they make the news and have become something of a weapon as opposed to a tool. Trust none of them whether they favor your guy or not. Just a few days ago of two major pollsters one had the race a 14 point spread and the other a 4 point spread and today a third poll has it as a two point spread. Who do you believe? They can't all be accurate.

And they astrology is a pseudoscience.

Tom
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been looking at the two times we have for mcCain, the 9AM and the 6:25PM times.

We have some major events for him to try to determine which is correct; the Forrestal incident, where he was almost killed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

And of course later that same year, he was shot down over Hanoi and after nearly drowning, was beaten, tortured, and left near death in a prison cell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain

Between these two events, we should be able to pinpoint the correct chart!

RC
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Theo



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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Winner of the Nov. 4th Election Reply with quote

RC wrote:
I'm looking to try to determine who's chart is looking better;

Below is McCain's secondary progressed natal (inner wheel), transits (middle wheel), and natal (outer wheel).

Note that Lord of his Natal Asc., Venus, is on his MC and trined by a lunar return. Asc. Lord, Venus, is in mutual reception with Lord of his progressed MC, Mercury in the 10th. Mars is the almuten of his natal chart. It's progressed placement puts it conjoining the progressed MC.

With the polling putting Obama as much as double digits ahead, it seems improbable but it does look good for McCain. I will post Obama's next.

[/img]


According to my calculations, it is Barack Obama who wins the election and the presidency. I've read the charts of both candidates some time ago, and the Saturn-Uranus opposition is having a negative effect on McCain's mutable grand cross.

Obama's transits are much more favorable, along with his Jupiter Return, the transiting Moon on election day is strong, and meets up with his progressed Jupiter at 0-Aquarius, and trines his natal Gemini Moon. There are more favorable transits as well.

Election Day sees a landslide victory for many Democrats across the country, and they also win the White House. The election for the presidency will not be as close as many are predicting, as transits show a huge turn-out and a landslide victory for Obama & Biden.
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RC



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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Winner of the Nov. 4th Election Reply with quote

Theo wrote:


According to my calculations, it is Barack Obama who wins the election and the presidency. I've read the charts of both candidates some time ago, and the Saturn-Uranus opposition is having a negative effect on McCain's mutable grand cross.

Hi Theo:

What Saturn-Uranus opposition? BO is the one with the opposition.
Theo wrote:

Obama's transits are much more favorable, along with his Jupiter Return, the transiting Moon on election day is strong, and meets up with his progressed Jupiter at 0-Aquarius, and trines his natal Gemini Moon. There are more favorable transits as well.



Well, counting forward in the ephemeris, his progressed Jupiter has entered its fall, so I'm not sure how great that will work for him.

Also at age 47 he has Mars conjunct Spica which is good but it is also conjunct Arcturus, which can be bad. So all the good fortune he has been having can be reversed:

From Janus' software:

Janus wrote:


Mars conjunct Spica 026'
Spica, (also known as Arista), a "spike, or ear, of wheat" is in Virgo (The Maiden). It is regarded as an indication of success and is associated with a love of the arts and sciences. Spica brings honours, fame, preferment and wealth. It indicates a noble and good-hearted disposition with the urge to protect the innocent and help those in need. There is spiritual advancement.

Mars conjunct Arcturus 049'
Arcturus, in Bootes (The Herdsman), has been called the "Watcher of the Bear", being near Ursa Major. Arcturus is associated with fame and honours. Indicates a go-getting and pioneering spirit with the urge to live a full and active life. If afflicted, good fortune can be reversed and losses are possible through litigation.


His progressed Mars in the ephemeris is at 22 Libra which puts it in Square with his natal progressed Saturn & Jupiter which the ephemeris puts at 23 & 27 Capricorn respectively, (& in fall for Jupiter). Mars is also USB, so weakened when applying to that Square, and in detriment in Libra, so I'd say his Mars is afflicted there. And Mars is important this year for him because its the ruler of his natal MC and the ruler of his progressed ASC. So being in detriment, USB, Square Saturn & Jupiter, and doing that from the 8th house where it still has effect can't be good I wouldn't think.

His progressed Moon in 12' Aquarius is also opposing his natal Sun in 12' Leo. His Sun is also getting a conjunction from transiting South node on nov. 4.

Also note that his co ruler of Asc., Uranus, looking forward in the ephemeris, will now be entering an exact Square to his MC. Something unexpected. Uranus doesn't normally bring good surprises, though it can if its a nice aspect. But here it is a square and coming from an angular position, in 7th, the opposition. How can that be good? Confused Of course he got this far in life with Uranus in detriment squaring his MC and IC so who knows? But when it hits the degree that way, that usually indicates a significant change. I just don't think its going to be a good one for him. I would tend to think it indicates a pretty big disappointment.

And note too that his progressed Sun in Virgo is in nearly an exact trine to his 'in fall' Jupiter which does not perform well in the sign of Virgo or as Frawley's students would say, "hates Virgo". This trine occurs between the 8th and 12th house which is often a sign of a significant disappointment. 8th house could show an ending to his political ambitions for the presidency. (A trine can bring about unfortunate things just as a square can, if its bringing together two unfortunate planets in bad placement.)

Theo wrote:

Election Day sees a landslide victory for many Democrats across the country, and they also win the White House....


Are you using astrology for that prediction? Smile Because that's pretty obvious without its use. Dems have already taken control of congress. Its been predicted by the polls that they should pick up more.



RC
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if we're falling into the same trap as 2004 and 2002 looking primarily at transits and tossing in a couple of progressions. John Kerry had great transits in 2004 and I suppose it is arguable that he had a great day - just not great enough to suit him and his followers. After all, he almost won the Presidency of the US. How many people can say that?

Although this is not the traditional forum, there is something to be said for the traditional method, or one of them, that still hangs on: there has to be something in the nativity that indicates elevation to high office in order for it to come true. If that is not true, then anyone, with the right timing can be elected President or CEO of a major company or marry a movie star, if they meet on the right day. I doubt anyone believes that.

That being said this is astrology so we can be pretty sure that there is more than one way to determine such elevation. I know of two: one is the so-called "releasing of spirit" used by Hellenists (that I will leave to others), and then there is the method outlined by Lilly and Morin using prominent fixed stars.

The theory runs this way: If one or more of the appropriate stars are prominent in the chart (on the ASC, MC, conjunct the ruler of the ASC or MC, conjunct a planet of their own nature etc; see CA beginning on page 615), and then if directions (we can substitute progressions), solar returns, and perhaps lunar returns agree, and for the really big bang a transits sets it all off, then the native achieves prominence. If these things are missing he doesn't.

These ideas developed in the days of monarchy and we're discussing a democratic election: does it still apply and if it does, what happens if neither or both have such "royal charts?" Yes I think it does apply, and if both have good charts, the chart that is better wins. If neither the same thing holds true, but I would not expect a successful administration in that case.

Suppose one has a weak Royal chart and the other has a strong one, but the weak one has the directions, returns etc that indicate victory and the strong one does not? The best candidate does not always win or the loser may win in the future. Richard Nixon lost in 1960, but won in 1968.

Those are the bare bones basics. The life unfolds according to the chart and how it unfolds through directions and returns. I wish it were all this simple. It isn't and this does not include the problem of accurate data. Obviously if the data is inaccurate so is everything else. Still all things being equal, there is a 50-50 chance the astrologer will be correct even with the wrong data. So if our prediction is correct half the time, that isn't saying much about our methods. If the only time we're right is when our guy wins, then our methods are useless.

When I first did this with Obama and McCain I used the available times which I think were 7:10 pm for Obama and 9:00 am for McCain. Since that time we've had a wonderful rectification of Obama's to 7:54:28 pm and then a birth certificate that shows 7:24 pm. Later still we obtained a similarly well researched rectification for McCain to 9:06:40 am and now, in my mind, a questionable birth certificate that shows 6:25 PM.

Regarding the royal chart business: using 7:54 Obama has a royal star (Antares) on the MC but has nothing with the 7:24 birth certificate time (see caveat below). If either the theory is wrong, or if McCain's chart is slightly better, this will not prevent victory for Obama. What it can mean is that Obama or someone in his situation, will, if elected, not serve out his term. I am not predicting his death so please do not call the FBI.

If we use either 9:00 am or 9:06 am McCain does have a royal chart but barely, if by "barely" we mean just within orb. Lilly and Morin allow some pretty generous orbs, and using that generosity, McCain has Spica on his ASC and Pollux on his MC (Lilly calls this star Hercules). This is strong astrological evidence of a McCain victory, if other things concur and if these times are close to correct.

I've spent very little time with the 6:25 pm chart and that one has a royal star on the MC (Antares) and it is a tighter orb than the 9:00 am or so charts. I do think it might have merit as the solar and lunar returns for 1967 using that time seem propitious. McCain was shot down and taken as a POW in October 1967. We might also wish to look at the 1966 returns as he was injured while fighting a major fire on the USS Forrestal (and continued fighting after being wounded by an explosion on deck. He and others tossed bombs and things into the water while the fire blazed all around them and they did so while injured) This incident also occurred in 1967 but prior to his 1967 solar return.

So McCain has the royal chart edge, but we still need the other things to fit to be supremely confident or as close to supremely confident that we ever can get. This brings me to the primary directions. Since there are so many ways to do them, it isn't impossible that we will find a match and we do using the 9:00 am/9:06 am times. I've done nothing with the 6:25 pm time so far. I cannot recall how or which, but I do recall Mercury moving to the MC about this time. I also recall that Obama has nothing.

At this point, McCain needs very little in a solar return to give him the astrological Presidency and Obama needs more than he has. But again, if memory serves, McCain has something (not a lot if I recall) and Obama has little or nothing - until yesterday. Yesterday was Obama's final lunar return before the election (McCain's is on election day). I've been following Morin's preferred method of casting the returns for the location at the time of the return and a comparison to birthplace might be in order. Obama spent his last lunar return in Roanoke, Virginia and by so doing the sign on his natal MC moved to his LR ASC. This would be strong evidence of an Obama victory if all the other factors agree. To date I don't see it, but others might disagree.

McCain will likely spend his lunar return in Arizona as it is customary for candidates to spend election night or day in their home states.

Caveat for Obama fans. Lilly does not count Fomalhaut as a Royal star for these purposes. Morin does. There are four Royal stars of Persia, Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran, and Fomalhaut. Fomalhaut is about 3 - 4 Pisces today and if the 6:25 pm chart is accurate for McCain it is one more for him as that is on the ASC. Since Fomalhaut is associated with the winter solstice, some would not consider it for this purpose as the purpose is to determine glory.

Using these methods and nothing more, McCain seems to be favored by the cosmos. However he needs also to be favored by the electorate and that will be known on Nov 4 - 5. I wish I could be more specific than I have since I've done a bit of work on this, but even though it is a weekend, time does not permit more details as I'm off on my travels until next weekend.

I freely admit that other methods attempting to do the same thing might point to a different result. Perhaps someone familiar with the zodiacal releasing of spirit will sit down and do the work for that method using several birth times to be sure. Perhaps some of these methods work sometimes and others work other times. I don't know. I haven't done the research.

If I called it correctly and McCain wins, feel free to contact me to join our Yahoo group that studies Morin's methods of prediction. You can do that anyway whether McCain wins or not and you don't have to wait.

Regarding the comments on the future Congressional make-up. While we all love to quote polls, it does not do our batting average much good to quote some polls and hide others. Just as Nancy Pelosi was confidently predicting an overwhelming Democrat majority in the House of Representatives, a poll came out that showed the approval rating of the Democrat controlled Congress at just 12%. That means 88% of Americans disapprove of the way the Congress is doing its job. I'm not sure how that translates into an overwhelming majority for the party currently in power even with the normally schizophrenic American electorate. If the poll is close to correct, a resulting Democrat super majority would raise irrationality to a new level - but this is American politics.

Tom



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Theo



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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Winner of the Nov. 4th Election Reply with quote

RC wrote:
Theo wrote:


According to my calculations, it is Barack Obama who wins the election and the presidency. I've read the charts of both candidates some time ago, and the Saturn-Uranus opposition is having a negative effect on McCain's mutable grand cross.

Hi Theo:

What Saturn-Uranus opposition? BO is the one with the opposition.
Theo wrote:

Obama's transits are much more favorable, along with his Jupiter Return, the transiting Moon on election day is strong, and meets up with his progressed Jupiter at 0-Aquarius, and trines his natal Gemini Moon. There are more favorable transits as well.



Well, counting forward in the ephemeris, his progressed Jupiter has entered its fall, so I'm not sure how great that will work for him.

Also at age 47 he has Mars conjunct Spica which is good but it is also conjunct Arcturus, which can be bad. So all the good fortune he has been having can be reversed:

From Janus' software:

Janus wrote:


Mars conjunct Spica 026'
Spica, (also known as Arista), a "spike, or ear, of wheat" is in Virgo (The Maiden). It is regarded as an indication of success and is associated with a love of the arts and sciences. Spica brings honours, fame, preferment and wealth. It indicates a noble and good-hearted disposition with the urge to protect the innocent and help those in need. There is spiritual advancement.

Mars conjunct Arcturus 049'
Arcturus, in Bootes (The Herdsman), has been called the "Watcher of the Bear", being near Ursa Major. Arcturus is associated with fame and honours. Indicates a go-getting and pioneering spirit with the urge to live a full and active life. If afflicted, good fortune can be reversed and losses are possible through litigation.


His progressed Mars in the ephemeris is at 22 Libra which puts it in Square with his natal progressed Saturn & Jupiter which the ephemeris puts at 23 & 27 Capricorn respectively, (& in fall for Jupiter). Mars is also USB, so weakened when applying to that Square, and in detriment in Libra, so I'd say his Mars is afflicted there. And Mars is important this year for him because its the ruler of his natal MC and the ruler of his progressed ASC. So being in detriment, USB, Square Saturn & Jupiter, and doing that from the 8th house where it still has effect can't be good I wouldn't think.

His progressed Moon in 12' Aquarius is also opposing his natal Sun in 12' Leo. His Sun is also getting a conjunction from transiting South node on nov. 4.

Also note that his co ruler of Asc., Uranus, looking forward in the ephemeris, will now be entering an exact Square to his MC. Something unexpected. Uranus doesn't normally bring good surprises, though it can if its a nice aspect. But here it is a square and coming from an angular position, in 7th, the opposition. How can that be good? Confused Of course he got this far in life with Uranus in detriment squaring his MC and IC so who knows? But when it hits the degree that way, that usually indicates a significant change. I just don't think its going to be a good one for him. I would tend to think it indicates a pretty big disappointment.

And note too that his progressed Sun in Virgo is in nearly an exact trine to his 'in fall' Jupiter which does not perform well in the sign of Virgo or as Frawley's students would say, "hates Virgo". This trine occurs between the 8th and 12th house which is often a sign of a significant disappointment. 8th house could show an ending to his political ambitions for the presidency. (A trine can bring about unfortunate things just as a square can, if its bringing together two unfortunate planets in bad placement.)

Theo wrote:

Election Day sees a landslide victory for many Democrats across the country, and they also win the White House....


Are you using astrology for that prediction? Smile Because that's pretty obvious without its use. Dems have already taken control of congress. Its been predicted by the polls that they should pick up more.



RC


Hi RC,

Yes, I am using astrology for my forecast ~ judicial astrology. If you look at what is happening, and know how Washington DC was built to line towards the stars, particularly those of the constellation Virgo, and has direct connection to the fixed stars Arcturus, Regulus and Spica.

First, the Democrats will win even more seats in Congress, both House and Senate, with surprising increases w/Independents winning some seats too, and, according to my calculations, Barack Obama wins the White House and becomes the next American president.

Arcturus rules the White House, and Spica sits over the Washington Monument, and Regulus rules over the U.S. Capitol Building, or Congress. Obama's Mars is conjoined to Arcturus (he wins the White House) and conjoined to Spica (Washington Monument) he is seen as a unique president in his own time.

I like your work & insights on his progressions and fully agree. I ran his progressions two years ago for this time (and further) and agree with your findings RC. There's a lot of very interesting transits here, aren't they? There are some things here that we might want to discuss at length in private to avoid some distasteful comments, however, you are most likely seeing some of the same things I am in his progressions.
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:


Caveat for Obama fans. Lilly does not count Fomalhaut as a Royal star for these purposes. Morin does. There are four Royal stars of Persia, Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran, and Fomalhaut.
Tom



Hi Tom:
Obama doesn't have Fomalhaut. Is that a typo? He does have Rigel Kentaurus on his midheaven. Is that one of the Royal stars?

Janus' fixed star editor states of that placement:
Janus fixed stars editor wrote:

idheaven conjunct Rigel Kentaurus 007'
Rigel Kentaurus, in Centaurus, is the "foot of the centaur," sometimes called Toliman, "grapevine shoot." It has also been referred to as Bungula. It can give rise to spoiled relationships with the female sex. Well placed, it can help to gain a position of honour and power.


I haven't finished yet with a comparison of McCain's two birth times, but I too am suspicious of the 6:25 PM time even with the evidence the other poster had published. As I said, my father's birth certificate even had the wrong day! So that is not always reliable.

With the two huge events for 1967, there is nothing I've found so far in McCain's chart for that time that points to those tragedies. The minor tragedies I've experienced in my own life were clearly marked and predictable. They were but a bump on a gnat's behind compared to McCain's!


RC
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RC



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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Winner of the Nov. 4th Election Reply with quote

Theo wrote:

I like your work & insights on his progressions and fully agree. I ran his progressions two years ago for this time (and further) and agree with your findings RC. .


Hi Theo:

How did you run his progressions two years ago for that time?

The birth certificate was only just published this year. Confused

Just curious,

RC
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RC



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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Later still we obtained a similarly well researched rectification for McCain to 9:06:40 am and now, in my mind, a questionable birth certificate that shows 6:25 PM.

Tom

[/color]


Tom :

Do you have the link showing McCain's rectification ?

RC
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

For anyone interested in looking at this using traditional methods here is an article from Maria Mateus which compares the prospects of the Presidential candidates using the techniques of hellenistic astrology (Ptolemy), Arabic ( Abu Ali Al Khayyat), and 17th century ( Wlliam Lilly).
She doesn't specfically predict an Obama win but McCain doesn't seem to have much of a chance using any of the methods discussed by Mateus. Mind you that is all based on the 9.00am birth time for him!

http://www.academyofastrology.org/traditionjournal/samples/thetradition1.pdf

Then again if Tom is right and McCain defies the polls that is surely a shot in the arm for the technique of Morinus!

One point worth making is that Obama does have an extremely bright, benefic star on his MC. (Rigil Kentaurus, aka Alpha Centuri, Bungula, Toliman = the foot of the Centaur) using the 7.24 chart.

According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Venus and Jupiter; While Vivian Robson states ''It gives beneficence, friends, refinement and a position of honor.''

Its actually the 3rd brightest star in the sky. Its not used by later medieval or renaissance astrologers like Bonatti, Lilly or Morin because it became invisible from Europe after the classical era due to precession. However, it is visible in Hawaii where Obama was born. Personally, I dont have much faith in projecting stars way outside the ecliptic like this but I thought I would give it a mention for those that do.

In terms of mythology the Chiron myth is actually based on the constellation of Centaurus rather than the insignificant piece of astro-debris that has recently grabbed all the astrological focus. Chiron was of course a teacher, hunter and healer and reputedly the most benefic of the otherwise war like Centaurs. In the myth it was Zeus himself who immortalised Chiron by placing him in the stars of the constellation of Centaurus. I leave others to speculate on whether Obama is the 'healer' America needs at this moment......

Quote:
There are four Royal stars of Persia, Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran, and Fomalhaut.


Actually that is a long held astrological myth. I will be posting up a thread on the traditional part of the forum soon to demonstrate why this commonly held belief is incorrect. To be fair though just about every astrologer writing in this area has perpetuated the myth that Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran and Folmalhaut were the royal stars of ancient Persia.


Last edited by Mark on Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Theo



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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Winner of the Nov. 4th Election Reply with quote

RC wrote:
Theo wrote:

I like your work & insights on his progressions and fully agree. I ran his progressions two years ago for this time (and further) and agree with your findings RC. .


Hi Theo:

How did you run his progressions two years ago for that time?

The birth certificate was only just published this year. Confused

Just curious,

RC


I had Obama's chart since 2004 when he was running for a senate seat.
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