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skippy sanchez



Joined: 24 Oct 2008
Posts: 35
Location: California

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, as I said "I'm way out of my league here"...I can't make translations if I can't even speak the language to begin with.
I only brought this topic up as an example of a possible connection between 'Accepted Sciences' and to the [what I believe] 'Science of Astrology'.
Like I said, I'd like to humbly 'Back Off' from this.
Maybe I can find another example more suitable to my ability of understanding.
Newtons work with the application of music and the spectrum of light to the Zodiac is a good example of one mans attempt to provide this connection. And I do have some musical training. I've studied violin, guitar and some piano.
Check out the thread I started on 'A Runic Explanation of the Zodiac' if you have the time and or inclination. It is another attempt at this. i.e. showing a connection from know Science to Astrology. [Although as I state there in that thread I am not the originator of this theory but have made a couple of observations and contributions to some of it]
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Martin Lewicki



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Thoughts

Yes I get your drift on this. Here, Lagrange L4 and L5 are at the sextile points in the orbit of Jupiter where a class of asteroids known as the Trojans have been captured.

Jupiter, Sun and the two pairs of Trojans 60 deg ahead and behind Jupiter make a neat set of equilateral triangles in the system.

All planets have similar Lagrange points including Earth where an artificial satellite is placed to keep it 60 deg ahead in the orbit at L3.

Other Lagrange points correspond to conjunction and opposition. (L1 and L2). For Earth a solar observatory occupies L1 and other observatories will use L2 in future.

Martin
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the original Question, i have a thought, or two, for you...

have you ever met someone who is a new convert to a religion? they seem to think no one and nothing has the answers but their particular brand of thought/philosophy/religion.

The estrangement of Astrology in the 18th and 19th century strikes me as a bunch of converts to a new religion(the fledgling sciences) defaming the old tradition.

It also reminds me of how some teenagers think they must be brats to their parents in order to claim their own adulthood.

the old refrain "you dont know how it feels, to love somebody the way I love you" comes to mind.

How ever much I admire the young lovers, or those bent on learning new philosophies, the newly turned tend to annoy me. Wink

and yet I continue to instigate them learning new things, go figure. Smile

granny
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
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Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy. I find the era wherein this rift became so wide was a time of liberation from so called secular authority.
As Granny more or less implied, it's not unlike restless children being allowed to run wild at last.
The pendulum of thought and rationality must swing as far to one side as it had achieved on the other. Balancing and evening, ebb and flow...this is the nature of the Tao.
I find this time frame mentioned here [the 18th and 19th century in particular] to be the era when the theories of Evolution started to replace those of Creationism. The science of Astronomy need not to believe in a 'Creator' to be valid and workable. But I don't believe the same can be said of Astrology. In fact I don't understand how a person can be an Astrologer and not believe in 'Creationism'.
In my opinion the 'Symbolic Nature' of Astrology just can't be accepted without a belief in a higher creative force, power or being.
I admit I'm rather obsessed by 'Symbolic Astrology' because of my fascination with the Sabian Symbols. But even those Astrologers that don't... still adhere to the basic symbolism found in the Signs, Triplicities, et al and the Planets themselves as the attributes assigned to each Planet are the product of symbolic interpretation.
To sum up what I'm getting at here is that I feel that although a rift had naturally appeared the rift had been under such protective guard for too long and [I'll use Grannys asimile to KIDS here] 'the kids threw the baby out with the bath water'...so to speak...revolutions are usually NOT BLOODLESS.
Rudhyar [another obsession of mine] wrote much on Uranus being the instigator of these type of transitions in awareness and thought, particularly in the 50's and 60's and here is an excerpt from the 'Rudhyar Archival Project', "Uranus Versus Saturn, the Value of Inconsistency"[I beleive this is okay as per the copyrights].

"When we say of a person bringing up an argument to prove a point that he is "consistent," we mean that his speech reveals a continuous sequence of known causes and expected results, of accepted premises and rational deductions. The continuity of his thinking is evident, and the arguments are contained within the framework of a well-tested logic. The trouble with such a procedure, however, is that it produces only results of the same order as the experiences which originally helped to devise the procedure. In a very real sense, the nature and quality of one's search condition in advance what one will find. If we use Saturnian means to solve a problem, the solution will not leave the realm of Saturn. Likewise, all the discoveries of modern science are conditioned by the scientific methods and quantitative techniques used in the process of discovery. The universe we see today is the universe as our "scientific" mind allows us to see it. It assuredly is not the universe in all its reality! It is the universe seen through the Saturnian consistency of our logical ways of thinking."

...as we all are about to experience a Saturn / Uranus opposition this may be a good idea for another thread/topic...When one looks at the rarity of this occurence [apprx every 40 to 50 years] and analyzes the times and the resultant effects it implies that this occurence that is in aspect this week should be taken very seriously as to the changes it will bring the next 40+ years.
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Northern California

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skippy sanchez wrote:
I find it interesting that scientists [ Astronomers/Astro Physicists] have recently discovered a "Gravity Well' some 61+ degrees in Jupiters wake. This is nearly a perfect sextile.
This "Well" is a zone of receptiveness to the orbit of Jupiter. Meaning that an object placed there in stasis will be towed behind Jupiter at the same constant distance.
It's almost as if the effect of the sextile is picked up and carried by Jupiter 'forward' with the planet. There are also theories on applying the musical scale and the spectrum of light to the Zodiac. Newton had some interesting theories that he published on the spectrum application.
My cousin and fellow Astrologer, Dave Mastry, has a theory on the application of the musical notes to the Zodiac that he elaborated on over at the Astrodienst forum under a thread titled 'Birth Chart of the Universe".
This theory of His involves the "Kabbalistic Astrology" book of Rabbi Dobin and how it corresponds with the Sabian Symbols to determine where the OM of creation originated from [The 'Word in the Beginning']. The Rabbi re-translated Habukuk to read that the force of God comes from between Capricorn and Aquarius. Om by Vedic science is in the Key of 'B'. Thus by applying a 14 point grid on the Zodiac begininng with the point 00* 00' 00" Aquarius and proceding toward Pisces there is to be a point every 25.714285 degrees [Half the slope of the 'Great Pyramid']. The hypothetical but non-existant 'B#' and 'E#' must be accounted for by Daves theory.
When the points are connected by 7ths or 5ths [as is the law of musical scale harmonics] you end up with a 12 pointed 'Star Matrix' consisting of two groups of 7 points & 5. Note that the signs come out grouped as they are presently arranged above and below the equator. Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scopio, Sagittarius, Capricon and Aquarius are the '7', and the remainder the '5'
This also correponds to some ancient Mesopotamian or Babylonian bas-reliefs we have seen with a man beneath an arragement of Stars above him in this configuration.
The 12 point Matrix is supposed to represent the "True Path of Discpleship' by some sources [The writings of Dorthy Leon is one]
And if it's as Rudhyar stated that all paths of discipleship begin in Virgo. This is highly illuminating as the first point that one connects to from 00* 00' 00" Aquar. is the point in Virgo in the 22nd degree [I don't have the exact co-ordinate handy] when one connects these 'Dots' in cycles of 5ths or 7ths.
Also the Sabians that are at these points are most interesting if viewed with the hypothesis they represent the "True Path of Discipleship"...all in all, pretty far outstuff, I'll admit...but this theory has got a lot going for it.
It can also be possibly viewed as another picece of the puzzle in the "As Above, So Below" school of thought.



Greetings. It's been awhile since I've posted here. I've been posting a bit at astrologyweekly.com forum, if anyone is interested in any Sabian Astrology research I've been doing.
This link was provided by my good friend and fellow yogi, Suryakant, and it is the 'missing link' I have been serching for in ref. to the above theory on the 'Seven and the Five.
Anyone into the study of Persian culture/history will be interested in this as should all students of Judeo/Christian/Manichean history...especially Manichean and or Zorastrianism.
Check it out!

http://books.google.com/books?id=2X-
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In fact I don't understand how a person can be an Astrologer and not believe in 'Creationism'. In my opinion the 'Symbolic Nature' of Astrology just can't be accepted without a belief in a higher creative force, power or being.


Hi Dave,

A very interesting and challenging position. As someone who upholds the perspective you find incompatible with astrology I feel I need to justify my presence here on skyscript. Shocked

As you are no doubt aware there are spiritual traditions that are not creationist in the sense of a clear cut monotheistic or even polytheistic perspective. Buddhism, Jainism and classical Daoism seem examples to me. As a Buddhist myself I dont see a conflict between the notion of a cosmos without a supreme creator god and the possibility of astrology working. If I shared your viewpoint I obviously wouldn't be on this forum!

A non-theistic monistic perspective allows us to see all phenomena as integrally interconnected. I personally relate to the ideas of David Bohm in his book 'Wholeness and Implicate Order'. His theory of everything relates the universe to a giant hologram. As with holograms if you take a small part of the cosmos it can represent the larger image in microcosm. To me this fits well with Hermetic ideas of as above below and the microcosm mirroring the macrocosm. At the same time I am open to the existence of other realms of existence beyond the human and animal as well as rebirth so I dont go along with the reductionist materialism of western Darwinian thinking.

In fact it seems to me astrology throws up its own problems for monotheists. Not least the ongoing philosophical dilemma of free will vs determisim and the problem of evil.

Of course these are enormous issues which have stimulated discussion for millennia. However, I felt your comment deserved some kind of response.

Have you read What Do Astrologers Believe? by Nicholas Campion? I think you might be surprised to see the diversity of viewpoints held by practicising astrologers surveyed by Campion in his research.

Mark
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A non-theistic monistic perspective allows us to see all phenomena as integrally interconnected. I personally relate to the ideas of David Bohm in his book 'Wholeness and Implicate Order'. His theory of everything relates the universe to a giant hologram. As with holograms if you take a small part of the cosmos it can represent the larger image in microcosm. To me this fits well with Hermetic ideas of as above below and the microcosm mirroring the macrocosm.


Without having read Bohm's book, what seems lacking or incomplete in the hologram concept, as briefly described here, is the idea of consciousness, a pulse of intention behind everything that allows for what is often frowned upon in modern thought cosmic purpose. The creator concept is based upon a life-giving and directing consciousness that's why it so easily becomes personified in a human-like God and be expressed in a yearning to connect with that God. We are driven by Greek eros: yearning, desire, longing. There's a longing for the connections of wetness rather than the sense of detachment produced by dry concepts of wholeness and implicate orders. Hindering such connections through the dryness of rational explanations and models may be experienced by some as acts of near violence. It's perhaps no coincidence that both malefics have the quality of dryness.

Most relevant to the discussion: Behind all our carefully thought out astrological theories and techniques may lie the Greek longing of eros, an ache that is urging a connection with a meaningful and purposeful universal order. It could be that astrologers too often favor the flights of detached spirit while ignoring the soul's desire to connect.
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 443
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all,

MarkC wrote:
A non-theistic monistic perspective allows us to see all phenomena as integrally interconnected. I personally relate to the ideas of David Bohm in his book 'Wholeness and Implicate Order'. His theory of everything relates the universe to a giant hologram. As with holograms if you take a small part of the cosmos it can represent the larger image in microcosm. To me this fits well with Hermetic ideas of as above below and the microcosm mirroring the macrocosm.


Sounds like Indra's Net?

Kirk wrote:

There's a longing for the connections of wetness rather than the sense of detachment produced by dry concepts of wholeness and implicate orders.


Admittedly, Kirk, I don't get this use of "wetness" and "dryness". Wholeness and implicate order imply and require connectedness, so is the dryness wet?

Kirk wrote:

eros, an ache that is urging a connection with a meaningful and purposeful universal order. It could be that astrologers too often favor the flights of detached spirit while ignoring the soul's desire to connect.


I am tempted to bring up some Freud, and note that while people are motivated by Eros, they are also motivated by Thanatos. Mark, there's an analogous concept in Buddhism, isn't there? Something about a desire for existence and a desire for non-existence? Another take could be that while the volition to create is strong, the necessary movements of the rest of the world are stronger, and thus Eros cannot overcome it.
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kirk wrote:

There's a longing for the connections of wetness rather than the sense of detachment produced by dry concepts of wholeness and implicate orders.


Admittedly, Kirk, I don't get this use of "wetness" and "dryness". Wholeness and implicate order imply and require connectedness, so is the dryness wet?


I was thinking in terms of the wetness, the easy connectedness, felt toward an anthropomorphic god as opposed to the separation of dryness felt in viewing the rational mental concepts of wholeness and an implicate order. A person can feel a longing for 'God' similar to a longing for a close friend, lover or mate. Can we yearn to talk and join with an implicate order? Perhaps, but it seems that we are stuck with a divide between ourselves and a mental construct. Ideas as mental 'manifestations', things separated and clarified to stand on their own in order to carry meaning, severed from the matrix, seem doomed to always be separate from us. But I ain't no trained fancy philosopher. These are just thoughts.


After posting I got to thinking about Mark's last sentence that I quoted:

Quote:
To me this fits well with Hermetic ideas of as above below and the microcosm mirroring the macrocosm.

It occurred to me just how much we view this in a dry manner (I'm risking wet/dry overkill). Above/below, macrocosm/microcosm. Point A and Point B. It's as if we like to imagine two perfectly similar rooms that mirror each other with pleasing symmetry. Maybe that's too dry, too separate. Could it even be a violent severing of dryness, an act of the malefics? Maybe it's one room. One cosmos. And getting back to astrology: It's one sky. The outer sky is the inner sky. Let's not play it safe and say that the sky astrologers look up to (if they do) is like a sky within each of is, but it is that sky within. Now that's wet. (All wet?) With such blurred boundaries astrology is life rather than an observation and description of life. There's no division of looking out and looking in. Just looking.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Without having read Bohm's book, what seems lacking or incomplete in the hologram concept, as briefly described here, is the idea of consciousness, a pulse of intention behind everything that allows for what is often frowned upon in modern thought cosmic purpose


The radical dimension to Bohm's thinking is that he does suggest consciousness is included. You might find it worthwhile to actually read the book. There are also some very interesting discussion between Bohm and Krishnamurti on just these themes in some other books.

I should state I dont think this is a discussion anyone can 'win' in the conventional sense. I am really not interested in point scoring or debating points here. I simply wanted to point out that what Dave suggested is not axiomatic for everyone involved in astrology.

Mark
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GarryP
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone's yet mentioned Will Keepin? His article 'Astrology and the New Physics' focuses on Bohm, and is one of the best attempts to link astrology and quantum theory/chaos theory I know of. It was originally in Mountain Astrologer Aug/Sept 95, is online here:

http://technovate.org/web/articles/astrologyandphysics.html

and has also been republished with minor changes in the latest (Oct/Nov 09) Mountain Astrologer , along with an update entitled 'Indra's Net and Astrology'.
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Dave M.



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As you are no doubt aware there are spiritual traditions that are not creationist in the sense of a clear cut monotheistic or even polytheistic perspective. Buddhism, Jainism and classical Daoism seem examples to me. As a Buddhist myself I dont see a conflict between the notion of a cosmos without a supreme creator god and the possibility of astrology working. If I shared your viewpoint I obviously wouldn't be on this forum!

A non-theistic monistic perspective allows us to see all phenomena as integrally interconnected. I personally relate to the ideas of David Bohm in his book 'Wholeness and Implicate Order'. His theory of everything relates the universe to a giant hologram. As with holograms if you take a small part of the cosmos it can represent the larger image in microcosm. To me this fits well with Hermetic ideas of as above below and the microcosm mirroring the macrocosm. At the same time I am open to the existence of other realms of existence beyond the human and animal as well as rebirth so I dont go along with the reductionist materialism of western Darwinian thinking.

In fact it seems to me astrology throws up its own problems for monotheists. Not least the ongoing philosophical dilemma of free will vs determisim and the problem of evil.

Of course these are enormous issues which have stimulated discussion for millennia. However, I felt your comment deserved some kind of response.

Have you read What Do Astrologers Believe? by Nicholas Campion? I think you might be surprised to see the diversity of viewpoints held by practicising astrologers surveyed by Campion in his research.

Mark



Mark, I probably should have said that creation is just that...CREATION, i.e. a product of intelligent design.
I was really implying atheism here and not those beliefs that are other than Occidental monotheistic systems.
As I get more and more into understanding the Sabian Symbols, [and all astrological knowledge] I see them as an ordered systematic influence of 'spiritual' law/understanding that is of a conscious intelligent design.

Perhaps I should have said that I don't see how an Astrologer could be an Atheist [or even Agnostic]...[and I've no doubt that one will surface here at this forum and voice his protests over this statement.]
If you've read my posts on how I found Kabbalistic Astrology and the Sabian Symbols to be mutually validating then you understand that Capricorn 30* represents "God" in some sense...and it has a Sabian
Symbol that represents a "GodHead"....
I spent some time studying and employing various Buddhist practices...including Zen.
I found I like my beliefs personified and have become something of a Mystic Gnostic Christian with a Hindu base core of belief...so you might ask am I monotheistic or polytheistic?
My answer is YES!
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote:

Quote:
Without having read Bohm's book, what seems lacking or incomplete in the hologram concept, as briefly described here . . .


I was aiming for how we think about the concept, not really what the concept consists of. I'm too uninformed about the concept itself to discuss it. What interested me was the sense of division (oh, that dryness again), of how we like to look at concepts, view them and choose them according to our personal tastes. We stand apart from our ideas. I was attempting to compare that to a deep-seated and most often mute yearning to unite with a source and guiding consciousness, which is apparently easier with an image with human qualities. The wet proddings of religion rather than the dry categorizations of acquired knowledge. Of course, theological structures and personal religious opinions conceal the foundational longing and create just as much division.

The thread title states our predicament in three words: 'Astrology and Astronomy'. That's the handicap we work with, and seem satisfied with. The point I was leading to (unknowingly at first) was that of one-and-the-same sky, not a material sky and a symbolic sky. Astrologers can be in two places at once except it's really only one place. . Confused . . That's the religious push underlying astrology much to the chagrin of many in our fancy new, progressive, secular society.

Garry,
Thanks for the link.
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Dave M.



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Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To anyone whose curriousity has been piqued by the subject of Manicheanism...I found this link...it's quite interesting.
It seems that at one time it was figured to be the worlds largest religion in terms of adherants...and so little is known of it presently.
It is said that Parsifal [and his mother] were Manichean. Of additional and objective interest is that Parsifal [Parsival et. al. spellings] was known as, "He who reads the Starry Script".

...here's the link to more on Manichenism...

http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/mani.htm
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Eddy



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Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the subject of Manicheanism

Although the subject of Manichaeism is fascinating and the veneration of light is very attractive and appears to have a sense of pureness, I tend to be very cautious with Manichaeism because it can make us prone to anti-Semitism. The dualistic character divides not only the elements into light and darkness but can also be extended to humans, those who have received the light and those who haven't, or refuse to accept this belief. The idea of the soul being imprisoned in the body is also a very old concept and makes people to reject the body and anything connected with the physical.

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
Anti-Semitism is thus seen to be at bottom a form of Manichaeism; It explains
the course of the world by the struggle of the principle of Good with the
principle of Evil. Between these two principles no reconciliation is
conceivable; one of them must triumph and the other be annihilated.
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg08804.html
also more here
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