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Robert Hand on medieval natal delineation

 
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:53 pm    Post subject: Robert Hand on medieval natal delineation Reply with quote

I am interested in a couple of ideas Rob Hand points out on medieval natal delineation in his articles on the StarIQ website.

http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0002143.HTM

Firstly is his suggestion that planets in houses are more physical in description while their rulers are more psychological. An example might be the Moon in the 7th house describing the physical description of a potential partner. However, assuming an Aries Moon its ruler (Mars) would describe the actual disposition of a partner psychologically.

The second interesting point Hand makes is that planets in houses describe the earlier manifestation of how the person experiences that area of life while the ruler represents a later development. For example, if Venus is in Pisces in the 10th house this indicates a promising early career. On the other hand a debiltated ruler ( Jupiter in Capricorn, retrograde in the 12th house) would indicate a far less successful career later in life.

Are these generally, accepted principles of medieval natal delineation? I have only really studied book 3 of Christian Astrology in terms of traditional natal astrology so far. If these ideas are there I must have missed then.

Is this approach unique to medieval astrology? I am aware of the hellenistic practice of using different triplicity rulers to mark out different stages of life but what Hand is saying appears to be different.

I would be interested if anyone has further ideas to share.
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
An example might be the Moon in the 7th house describing the physical description of a potential partner. However, assuming an Aries Moon its ruler (Mars) would describe the actual disposition of a partner psychologically.


The Planet and Sign describe the temperament of individual involved. However I believe temperament and psychology are two different things. The temperament are qualities in which the person is most inclined to take part in. For instance we all know the temperament of a ram, this is obviously quite different that the psychology of the ram. The seventh House (or the sixth sometimes) went as far as to describe the partners modesty or lewdness (making reference to prostitution or women of ill repute). This isnt psychology.

Quote:

The second interesting point Hand makes is that planets in houses describe the earlier manifestation of how the person experiences that area of life while the ruler represents a later development.


There are many ways of telling time through the charts. Time is usually counted clockwise from the Ascendant (to the MC, to the Descend, & etc.). Planets placed in the 1st to 10th Houses show things obtained earlier in life, where as after that they become later and later. Secondly, Planets placed in Angle Houses are always obtained, they come naturally and easily (Lord of the second in the first is a great example, goods without labor). Succedant Houses refer to later in life and getting things with labor. Finally Cadent which refers to old age and difficulties. There are more than this however. The list of time scales is quite endless.
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Aaron Brody
www.antiquus-astrology.com
Antiquus Astrologia
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Astraea



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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark. Rob Hand has greatly expanded on those ideas in a new article on his website: http://robhand.com/Matter&FormArticle.htm I don't know how typical his schema is of medieval astrology generally, but it reflects an enlightening (to me) understanding of the philosophical ideas that inform it.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The second interesting point Hand makes is that planets in houses describe the earlier manifestation of how the person experiences that area of life while the ruler represents a later development. For example, if Venus is in Pisces in the 10th house this indicates a promising early career. On the other hand a debiltated ruler ( Jupiter in Capricorn, retrograde in the 12th house) would indicate a far less successful career later in life.

Are these generally, accepted principles of medieval natal delineation?


Hand starts the article with reference to the generally accepted medieval (and earlier) practice of using the triplicity rulers to "time" stages in the native's life. After this quote:

Quote:
The Sun in a praiseworthy place and the lords of the Sun’s triplicity in evil places, say that at the time of the nativity of the child the father would be well and fortunate, but afterward he would come to poverty.”


Hand writes:

Quote:
Don’t worry what is meant by the phrase, “the lords of the Sun’s triplicity.” The four triplicities of the chart, fire, earth, air and water, are considered to have rulers just like the individual signs. All we have to understand here is that these rulers are used in a manner very much like sign rulers.


Frankly I became a little confused reading the article since what Hand is telling the reader to ignore, is the crux of the quote. Briefly the quote means that if the Sun (general significator of the father) is in a good place, the father will be relatively prosperous (relative to his social station - kings can go broke and merchants can get rich, but rich kings are not the same as rich merchants). However, if the Lords of the triplicity of the sign the Sun occupies are all in a bad state Let's say the Sun is in Aries (exaltation), a fire sign. The Lords of the fire triplicity in a day chart in order are Sun, Jupiter, Saturn. We already know the Sun is in good shape (Let's ignore aspects, house position, etc for simplicity's sake), so the first third of the native's life will be prosperous, as is the case with the children of wealthy people. But if Jupiter is in, say, Gemini (detriment) and Saturn is in Cancer (detrimet) the last two thirds of his life will be difficult as these two triplicity rulers are weak. In practice the astrologer would take more than just the sign into consideraion.

Hand, temporarily dismisses this in order to describe what to do when a planet occupies the house, which is not addressed in the above example. This article is the second on the topic, and I did not read the first, but his use of the word "psychology" is most likely a convenience and a substitute for the medieval concept of "soul." Freud was a long way off in the future, but the existence of inner motivations were not unknown, so Hand says that the presence of a planet in the house tells of early reality and the sign ruler of later reality. I don't recall seeing this anywhere in the medieval texts, but Hand is certainly far more familiar with these texts than I am, and if he says it's there, I'll take his word for it unless and until I see for myself it is otherwise true.

What I think he's doing is trying to bring medieval techniques into the 21st century within a 21st century framework. The idea of "career" in the middle ages was not exactly what we think of as "career" today. There was little social mobility and the idea of a medieval Bill Gates is a bit of a stretch. The middle class was just emerging in the later middle ages. Still we don't do charts for medieval princes, rather we do them for people much like ourselves and this is what I think Hand is trying to address.

For a real handle on medieval natal astrology go to the AFA website and get a copy of Judgment of Nativities by Abu Ali Al Khayyat, who, if nothing else, has a cool name. His explanation of natal astrology in the middle ages is about as good as it gets.

Lilly is not, in my opinion, a medieval astrologer. He may look that way to a modern who has little experience with medieval astrology, and he incorporates medieval techniques into his astrology, but he seems to be a bit different. The other thing to keep in mind is that there are two traditions within medieval astrology: Arabic exemplified by Al Khayyat, Al Biruni, et al and Latin as exemplified by Cardan and Bonatti. There are differences and one could easily spend a lifetime or two sorting out the subtleties. Lilly leaned to the Latin side.

To summarize, I believe Hand is using contemporary terminology (psychology) to explain a medieval concept (soul) and teaching how to apply it today.

If anyone is interested, Robert Hand will be speaking on this very topic at the Astrological Society of Princeton (NJ) in June. I'll provide details to anyone who wants them and directions, too.

Tom
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astrojin



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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello MarkC,

From the little that I read, there are a few "shortcut" methods to determine the fortunes of a native (or his father, mother, money, etc.). The triplicity method and the dispositors methods are the two that come to mind.

Let us assume that we wish to determine the fortune of a native's father. First, we have to decide on the significator of father.

In its simplistic form, there are three levels of significators:-

1. Natural or universal significator
In our case Sun = father or some ancient astrologers would say that Sun = father for diurnal chart and Saturn = father for nocturnal chart.

2. Accidental significator
Here, we have to decide which house represents father. The fourth house has signification of the father according to traditional and ancient astrology. The accidental significator of father can then be a planet located in the fourth house (Morinus, the french astrologer strongly advocates this especially if the planet has affinity with "fatherhood") OR

planet ruling the 4th house (like many traditional astrologers would do) OR

one of the triplicity rulers of the 4th house (e.g. Ibnu Ezra would take the first triplicity ruler of the 4th = father).

3. Special significator
This includes the method that uses the whole chart (letting the chart itself decides on which planet represents father), for example, according to Robert Zoller, there are 18 ways to find the significator of money/finance in a chart...

In our case we would also then look into the arabic part of father (and its ruler) and also the compound Almutem of father.

Once we have decided the significator of father, we can then delineate his fortunes...

To simplify matter let us assume that sun (universal significator of father) is located in the 4th (in Aries) and the sign Aries is on the cusp of the 4th. Having sun located in the 4th would probably have Morinus aotomatically use sun = father. Ibnu Ezra would also look into Jupiter (being the first trip ruler of the 4th for nocturnal chart). If we decide to take sun = father, we then delineate the sun to predict the father's general fortune. We can then look at (roughly) the timing using two methods:-

1. The disposition method (Ref: Robert Zoller's diploma materials)
2. The triplicity method (Ref: Dorotheus of Sidonus' Caermen Astrologicum)

The disposition method:
By looking at the sign the sun is located (ignoring other important factors) tells us that the father has a good life as sun is in his exaltation sign (at least in his early life), the location of Mars (dispositor of sun by rulership) will tell us his fortunes during his later life...

The triplicity method:
The sun is located in Aries, for nocturnal chart the trip rulers are Jupiter, Sun and Saturn. Hence, the conditions of Jupiter tells us the father's fortunes during his first third of his life, the conditions of Sun tells us the father's fortunes during his second third of his life, the conditions of Saturn tells us the father's fortunes during his last third of his life...

BUT, observe carefully that the trip rulers are also the dispositors of sun (dispositors by triplicity!) - so it is also a specific disposition method...

Lastly, the dispositors of a planet can also give us the "supporters" or "backups" or "foundations" of that planet. For example, if Venus is the significator of lover, dispositors (esp. dispositor by rulership) of Venus can tell us more about what "makes up" the lover, his so called "foundations", his soul (the medieval equivalent of psychology)...
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sasha_i



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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The second interesting point Hand makes is that planets in houses describe the earlier manifestation of how the person experiences that area of life while the ruler represents a later development. For example, if Venus is in Pisces in the 10th house this indicates a promising early career. On the other hand a debiltated ruler ( Jupiter in Capricorn, retrograde in the 12th house) would indicate a far less successful career later in life.


Quote:
I would be interested if anyone has further ideas to share.


MarkC:

I found something that resemblance with Robert Hand’s argument in Julian of Laodikeia (c. 500 C.E.):

..... In fact the beginnings of every thing is taken from the position of Moon, the ending from its lord…. (C.C.A.G. I, Bruxelles 1898, pag. 138.)

What is interesting is that from an earlier statement of Laodikeia results that actually the whole passage is taken from “divine Petosiris”
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you to everyone for your very helpful replies.

I can see I was just touching on the tip of an iceberg in traditional technique.

Thanks Tom for the recommendation on Judgment of Nativities by Abu Ali Al Khayyat. I know John Frawley's recommends this as a good primer in traditional natal technique. I actually, have the book but unfortunately my library of traditional astrology is running way ahead of what I have had time to really sit down and study at present! Another text that comes highly recommended is ''On The Judgements of Nativities' (book1) -by
Johannes Schoener. Translated from the Latin by Robert Hand. This seems an interesting text as it represents the later phase of Latin natal astrology before we enter into the early modern era with figures like Lilly, Morin and Gadbury.

I agree Lilly isn't really strictly medieval in approach its just Christian Astrology is the first book I have read on traditional natal technique. I am also starting to study Gadbury's 'Doctrine of Nativities' which seems very similar to Lilly but I find his style more dry and less pragmatic than Lilly. Perhaps his 'Collection of Nativities' will be more revealing.

For someone relatively new to the study of traditional natal astrology, like myself, I think there could be a lot of potential confusion in darting between Hellenistic, Arabic, Latin and 17th century sources as there can be subtle or significant differences in technique. Clearly, this is not a subject for dabblers and there seems a lot of practical advantge in devoting time to thoroughly studying just one period of natal astrology initially e.g. 17th century before trying to understand other periods.

Mark
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