Will Murray beat Federer? (Horary)

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8th. Sept., 2008, 11:08PM, BST, Worcester, UK. 22 degrees Gemini rising.

Federer the favourite, therefore given the Ascendant ruler, Mercury. Murray Lord 7, Jupiter.

Mercury Essentially and Accidentally strong, and moving fast, disposited by a strong Venus. Jupiter in Fall, barely moving, in the 8th. house, disposited by a combust Saturn. Clear testimony for Federer to win.
And so it proved.
H.

2
Straight to the point! :'

With Mercury essentially strong you mean in own triplicity, ruling air by night. You give this preference to Jupiter in his own terms. That's fine by me. I think the Brit did well to get to the finals! However, in which way do you count Mercury as accidentally dignified?

The stationary Jupiter disposed by Saturn has had me stumped the last few days. :( The trine between Jupiter and the Sun we give a positive interpretation - although Jupiter is always slow or stationary at this point of time. As you can see in this chart, Jupiter is in an absolutely exact and perfect trine to its dispositor, Saturn. Without the combustion caused by the elsewise benefic aspect to the Sun, this could have been indicative of success!! Unless you reckon Jupiter corrupted in both Capricorn and Virgo. It's a tricky one! :-?

In your reading I notice the Moon received little notice, although she is accidentally digified in the 7th house and essentially dignified by triplicity. I think you read the chart well, but these technicalities blurred my jugdement. More horaries please! :) :'
http://www.astronor.com

3
Hi Andrew,

I counted Mercury as Accidentally dignified because of his position in the fifth house, as opposed to Jupiter's lack of Accidental dignity by his being in the eighth house. I didn't take the moon into consideration this time because the testimony as it stood was compelling enough to give judgement. Had there been a finer balance between the two competitors I would definitely have looked to what the moon was doing, and to other factors in the chart too. Thanks for your reply!
H.

6
Now you are responding to the detrimented Moon in the 7th house, aren't you?? Scotland is ruled by Cancer and the Moon, yes??

Our appologies, we did overlook it!
I do think the Moon says a lot here. Separating from Sun in Virgo (disposited by Mercury) and applying by trine to Venus (dispositer of Mercury)The Moon in detriment and Jupiter in fall disposited by a peregrine combust Saturn reflect Murray's chances very well. Nil

It has to be said Murray is a bit miserable and quite Saturnian! He is a very talented player but in combination with Gordon Brown on the international scene he is not helping much to reverse the stereotype of Scots as rather dour, depressing types. :,

As for Scotland yes I have read about this Cancer/Moon link in a few traditional texts. Its does reflect contemporary issues quite well here with alcoholism, obesity and resurgent nationalism all on the political agenda. Not sure about a Capricorn Moon though. Some 18th century astrologers thought the Highlands were ruled by Saturn but I suspect that was politically biased and more due to English fears about Jacobite armies threatening London! :D
Last edited by Mark on Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7
Hi guys, are you employing the JF's method, 1st vs. 7th? I can't see how this technique could possibly be reliable ie. serve as a stand-alone technique for predicting sports results, when you often have, for example, at grand slams, some 15 matches starting at the same time (a few minutes up or down but it all comes down to a few degrees asc. difference at most), but some favourites win and some loose ;-) That's the hard fact!!! I don't have JF's book though I know the basics, and I'm not speaking for football matches because I'm not following them (although the logic should be the same there), but as for tennis, I'm sure you can't rely on this technique, and why would you, after all, when you can employ the simpler and most effective transits-to-natal method? :lol: The Scot Murray won over Nadal because Saturn was in exact square of Nadal's Sun on those days, so that even Mars's trine to his Sun couldn't have helped him - also becasue Mars was in his 12th, and weak in Libra. But the Brit Murray couldn't win over Federer because the former no1 had all the stars working for him, among them tr. Mars in exact conj. with his pr. Jupiter which is one of the best transits for "a successful sports activity"- ie. a win. (by the way MarkC, Murray has his natal Moon in conj. with Saturn, that's why he is "saturnian"...). So if JF's method has any merit at all, it should be employd only in combination with other methods (theoretically, with football it should be the teams' "natal charts", as per date of foundation), at least that's my HO.
Ema
http://www.emakurent.com
http://www.astroakademija.si
http://www.astrojoy.com

8
Hello Ema,

I will leave others to debate if this technique works and is really appropriate. Sport and astrology is not really something I have studied much. However, I thought the original source for the 1st vs 7th house approach was Bonatti on War?

I have heard it was adapted by astrologers like Lee Lehman and Bernadette Brady. I haven't read JF's book but I wasn't aware he was claiming to be the originator of this approach?

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I wasn't aware he was claiming to be the originator of this approach?
Excuse me MarkC I should've probably said that JF elaborated on this approach, as far as I know of course, because I've heard (read) astrologers using this technique and making reference to his book Sports Astrology, but of course I am aware that the technique is of a far older origin, and I'm sure JF never claimed that he is the originator of this approach either. He just elaborated on it, as I said, and I'm sorry to be misunderstood :-cry Thanks for reminding me though :D
Ema
http://www.emakurent.com
http://www.astroakademija.si
http://www.astrojoy.com

10
Hi Ema,

Sorry to be a pedant. Its just JF gets the credit for so much these days I am expecting someone to post that he invented horary soon!

Your point about referring to natal factors is perfectly sound if the original post was about an event chart. However, judging by the title of the post I assumed it was a horary? In which case your comment about several sporting events happening simultaneously surely isn't relevant to this particular chart?

Can I congratulate you on your astute comments? In particular:
''The Scot Murray won over Nadal''....... the Brit Murray couldn't win over Federer'.
Thanks for the info on Murray. I had forgotten that about the Moon-Saturn conjunction in his chart. It certainly shows doesn't it?

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Well EXCUSE ME again! :oops: Seems like I'm having a bad day. (But at least I've got the Brits and Scots right :wink: Belonging to a small nation myself, I certainly know what national pride is, so I made an effort to take your notion seriously :D) Harlequin posted a horary, of course... I was referring to event charts, of course. Sorry guys for that.
Its just JF gets the credit for so much these days I am expecting someone to post that he invented horary soon!
Actually, I like the cool, objective and relaxed stance regarding JF on this forum. There are forums on this net where members treat every word in his books as Gold and Him Himself as Master. Poor John, I wonder if he hasn't postponed the work on his traditional natal astrology book just to escape further adoration :wink: I surely wouldn't like to be in his skin.

Now, back to the thread: a notorious example of this happened just a few weeks ago in New Haven. There were 2 matches starting at the same time, the second was just 2,5 minutes off, in which time ascendant moved barely half a degree. The gamebookers' odds were like 1,25 against 3,00 or something - for both pairs of players. Which means that in both pairs there was one "sure" favorite and one "sure" underdog. In one match, the favorite won, in the other, the underdog won. So tell me, what would be the use of an event chart here? No use at all.
Ema
http://www.emakurent.com
http://www.astroakademija.si
http://www.astrojoy.com