skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Will Barack Obama win?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 730

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GH

Why are there lawsuits against Obama still pending? if there was nothing to hide, judge could have put the end to this 1st time around. It is not that i nor anyone else is hoping something bad to happen, it is just i am up to my throat with lies. We have been lied with Clintons, Bush, now who - Obama?This reminds of the lies/promises Clinton told/gave to american people *grrrr*,, did you guys forget how many people supported Bill Clinton? Everywhere there was Bill Clinton just like now with Obama. Can we get at least more honest person in White House at least once? there was one article that said that something along the lines as long as the lawsuit goes on, people will talk and speculate. There are enough of reasons to impeach Bush yet Palosi said ohhh NO!... Clinton's impeachement went nowhere, just wasted taxpayers'money. If Obama can get a great majority of our boys/girls out of Iraq/Afganistan by end of 1st term, maybe i will change my mind. As of Nov 9th, things are going from bad to worse. Let's see what 2009-2011 bring...

Kirk

HUh? what are you talking about?

CD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ema wrote:
Hi RC, from the interpretive point of view which I'm discussing, your horary chart has nothing to do with political elections . As I said it's a simple "we against them" horary chart - try to understand this and you'll see why and where you went wrong. No need to read Frawley to know that Wink


Emma:

First of all, I finally concluded that the horary (all of them) supported an Obama win, so how did I go wrong? McCain's natal looked better to me than BO's but as for the horary's, they all gave BO the win.

Second of all, my horary wasn't a "we against them". It was about BO's chance of winning the election over McCain.

I think I know what my own question was. I also think I'm in a better position to know what was in my mind at the time than you are don't you think?

Thirdly, where were you with all your judgments before the election? Wink

RC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 730

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC

i have to agree with you ... McCain's transits/solar arcs/progressions looked very good for him.

for horaries, I havent really run any of them on Obama/McCain. Eventhough a question did pop in my head "will people of the US pick McCain!?"

Cheers
CD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Emma,

May I suggest you read Frawley's chapter on political elections before you start an argument regarding his techniques?

RC


RC, Ema did not start an argument regarding John Frawley’s techniques, or say anything demeaning about JF, she merely corrected one of your comments (which, I agree, needed correcting). She also explained her reasoning - which is something you didn’t do when you reproduced her post with a suggestion that she reads his work. This seems very insulting to someone like Ema, who has a good knowledge of the sources that JF draws upon.

I also think you leave a very misleading impression where you say “I finally concluded that the horary (all of them) supported an Obama win”.

The reality is that throughout the pre-election discussion of various charts, you insisted that they were all showing a win for McCain. Your first comment in the McCain thread was “Using Frawley's formula, using the moon's aspect alone, McCain wins: Moon is conjoining with Mars in minutes” and you never stated a change of opinion until *after* the election, when you wrote “All who said you can't use horary to answer this question credibly, I think you may want to rethink that. I asked several times, different ways and looked at Kali's chart "Will republicans win" and they all favored BO using Frawley's technique for elections.”

That’s an amazing turnaround for someone whose last two posts before the election were still proposing an unexpected win for McCain and expressing your "astrological" assessment that McCain could not lose! After being so self-righteous on the back of being wrong, I can only imagine how much more fuss you would have made about being right if you had actually been right!

Sorry, but there is a real insincerity coming across in your astrological comments that relate to this political issue. You have been using astrology to push your own political viewpoint, and have been quite prepared to twist the technique to make it fit. I don't think you even realise how much you have been doing this, because you are so closely wrapped up in your concern to have the astrology show what you want to see.

This whole thread has been giving me a lot of concern for some time. The use of horary technique is poor and much of the discussion is blighted by political bias which has stirred up annoyance. I’ve allowed it to continue to give people a chance to review the election judgements with the benefit of hindsight of what actually happened, but I’ve been quite shocked in the way that the post-election review of technique has been just as biased by personal opinion as the pre-election predictions. I think this thread needs to be allowed to die down now. The astrological assessment of the American presidency is probably more of a mundane matter than a horary one, and issues relating to Obama’s birth chart (or his birth certificate) are definitely out of place here.

After letting the thread live for so long, I don't now want to lock it, but if anyone feels that they must make one last comment can they now do that so that we can allow this uncomfortable – and largely unhelpful - thread to fade out of focus.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1394

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Deb

I won´t get into the problem of who insult who, as some members have a very confrontational style, and its their choice, but I would like to correct what I see as a minor injustice and a major comunication problem.

Quote:

This seems very insulting to someone like Ema, who has a good knowledge of the sources that JF draws upon.


I don´t think that saying someone doesn´t know something is insulting per se. We can all try to work on our manners when discussing political problems, but the matter is that Ema said:

Quote:
Hi RC, I beg your pardon but what Frawley's method do you mean?


The method is in the Horary Textbook, p. 213, "the moon is of extreme importance in horaries about elections. It is natural ruler of the people, and so signifies the electorate. If the moon goest to aspect the signicator of the candidates, that candidate will win."

So, Ema was asking about the method, and as far as I know, this method is not described in ancient sources. I may be wrong here, but I think it is Frawley´s creation.

We see then that Ema said:
Quote:
Even if the Moon weren't the 10th house planet but just applying to Mars by a harmonious aspect that would show that HE IS what's going to HAPPEN next - as always in horary charts, the Moon's application shows what's going to come next. It wasn't Frawley who's made this up.


I would say Ema was trying to speak of Her own technique, and RC was trying to speak about Frawley´s technique. I think Ema assumed that both would be the same, and in the case, they aren´t. Again, I don´t see the insult, as the fact that ema may know the sources that JF draws upon don´t authomatically mean that she knows what JF says himself.


Again, I won´t be in the matter of who style was confrontational, etc. I had my quote of quarrying with members in the past, that I have very profound differences, but that I now respect their opinion in a great extent.

Quote:
After being so self-righteous on the back of being wrong, I can only imagine how much more fuss you would have made about being right if you had actually been right!


Deb, I think it depends on point of view. I was reading this as RC´s perception that horary was right, even if she was wrong, and she was trying to work on this insight.

But RC, I agree with Deb that in many times during the thread you let "what you wanted" to mix with what you were reading. We should let the chart talks his own story.

Altough, I may confess that one of the only reasons that I interpreted this and other horaries with such confidence is because I was asured that Obama would win because of the mundane astrology (shame on me) Tongue Out
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"the moon is of extreme importance in horaries about elections. It is natural ruler of the people, and so signifies the electorate. If the moon goest to aspect the signicator of the candidates, that candidate will win."

So, Ema was asking about the method, and as far as I know, this method is not described in ancient sources. I may be wrong here, but I think it is Frawley´s creation.

The principle that the Moon rules the electorate - and that the party to which the Moon applies is favoured by her application in matters that rely on public support - is everywhere. It’s a staple principle of tradition (within reason of course, it is only one of the considerations to be built into a judgement, and the application of an afflicted Moon does not guarantee success).

Moon signifies the common people – Lilly, CA., p. 81
The Moon signifies jurors and her application signifies success for that party – CA., p.403. (Same principle – the Moon signifies the will of the people, and so shows where public support is given, and so who wins – I myself have been teaching this for years and I have seen it in too many places to try to remember).

The general principle that the Moon’s application shows who gets the victory in a contest chart or a matter related to acquiring a kingdom is very ancient and very frequently repeated. There is, for example, a horary chart published in the work of Sahl, (Dykes p.75 ff., and repoduced by Bonatti, where the Moon’s application is taken to demonstrate the successful party; and later in the text the application of the Moon is stressed again in questions concerning who will attain the kingdom (p.147).

It seems fairly common sense to me. But what I don’t want to suggest is that here we have one simple little rule that has been proven to be completely reliable without even looking at anything else.

And don’t forget that RC’s comment in the first post of the McCain horary read:

Quote:
“Using Frawley's formula, using the moon's aspect alone, McCain wins: Moon is conjoining with Mars in minutes.

BUT, Mars is in the 7th house, the opponent's side. That is a negative for McCain according to Frawley.”


It was only after the event, that RC proved the validity of her horary by claiming that her chart was always right even if her judgement was wrong. I somehow don’t think she would have been so eager to reject her previous approach to the judgement after the event, if McCain had won, but this misses the point – we do not create horaries that are independent of our selves. That horary only existed because of RC’s personal judgement and inclination to ask. So if her judgement was wrong, then her chart was misconceived and unreliable – it shouldn’t then be venerated as an example of how unassailable the horary system is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

I am rather surprised at your reaction and comments which I think were undeserving and one sided.

And I have to say you have a rather selective memory when it comes to comments made to me in the past by Emma. One of them I believe you found quite humorous. I did not share your opinion and found it rather insulting as well as irritating - it was not amusing to me and your reaction to her seemed to encourage that behavior. I have continued to either ignore her comments altogether or use a lot of patience in responding as I have noticed that I am not the only one she has been confrontational with. I suppose I did finally run low on patience.

As for my views on this election, If you had followed along, it should have been somewhat clear that I was relying on the natal for my hope for a McCain win - NOT the horaries which all pointed to a BO win when using Frawley's techniques for my horary as well as Kali's horary.

You on the other hand, made a point of saying that horaries were doubtful and could not work for such questions since I had no relationship with the parties. As it turned out, the horaries did work exactly right, again, using Frawley's techniques.

Deb wrote:
Yes of course, any question can be asked, but what we want with horary is a good, strong, emotional investment and a clear mental focus on the question, to get the kind of radical question that hits right into the heart of the matter. Chris Warnock’s point is a good one, and I’m glad you made it. Despite my general dislike of these charts, I actually do believe that horary can be used for mundane or political matters, or for 3rd-party horaries. But it takes a special set of circumstances to create a radical question, and if the querent is also being the astrologer too, then they need to have a great deal of experience and give the chart complete commitment. Lilly’s chart about Presbytery is a classic example.


I guess I had a "special set of circumstances" since my chart was accurate, eh? Of course I'm not sure yet what those "special circumstances" were since I've never met either man and wasn't involved in campaign work.

And since you have taken issue with my past assertions regarding these horaries, I will post them here:

RC wrote:


yuzuru wrote:


But if I take the 7th, mars rules obama. Moon (the people) will apply to sextile mars, Obama wins.


Hi Yuzuru:

I'm assuming you are a student of Frawley. I read this in his book. He states that which ever candidate gets aspected by the moon wins. He doesn't state whether the aspect had to be good or bad.

So according to his analysis which was very brief in the book, since Moon sextiles BO's ruler, Mars, as you say, he wins.

He didn't clarify in the book whether he turns the chart or uses the radical 10th for both candidates (I don't think). So I was a bit unclear how he does that.

But Frawley also talks about the moon being fixed. This chart is interesting because the moon is FIXED. But it is in 00 degrees directly opposing a fixed MC at 1'. If a fixed MC means the party in power stays in power, this seems to be a mixed reading for an Obama win with the moon doing nothing at 00 degrees fixed.

But aside from that, it looks almost like a done deal.

RC



----
RC wrote:


Hey Kali:

No planets in the ASC or 7th but:

Moon separates from a sextile to Mercury which just passed over 1st ruler, Venus. Moon then opposes MC and then sextiles Mars. This would all seem to favor BO.

Uranus' soltice point (10th ruler) is conjunct BO's Mars. Moon's Soltice Point is at 29 Taurus (Pleides) in the first house squaring the MC from McCain's house.

Seems on further study, the chart favors BO more.
Unfavorable for BO: Mars in detriment, about to enter his own 12th. McCain's favor: He's about to enter dignity in Libra.

I'm still not sure how we should judge moon at 0 Leo though or fact that MC is fixed.

RC



----
RC wrote:

Hey Kali:

Yes, we will know soon!

I find these horaries a bit frustrating tho I think more of mine show a McCain win, I am relying on the Natal charts for both men.

Using the 9 AM birth time chart for McCain, I think McCain will pull it off and win. And I think I was being pretty objective in reading their charts. But there are now 3 birth times for him.


---
RC wrote:

Hey Kali:

I only looked at your chart a little and won't try to answer that here, but that particular chart did not look promising imo. Maybe it should be read differently than the way we read the other charts.

For one thing, that MC about to change signs looks like a new party coming into power.


RC

----

Not wanting to dim Kali's hopes, I then responded again to her again and stated that I was hanging my hopes on the natal charts.

RC wrote:


kali wrote:


The question was "Will Republican's win?" Republican's are conservatives. Saturn is a conservative sign and it's staying in power even though the sign changes. (Different person? McCain!) Maybe it's as simple as that! If McCain wins, this chart shows it and it will be up to me to find where I went wrong in predicting Obama.


Well, that makes sense to me. Of course BO has Aquarius rising...?? And that would be a "change" and Uranus brings change and shakes things up.

But I'm going to stick with the natal charts and take hope from those. Thumbs up

RC



RC wrote:
Clinton:

I'm done with these horaries.

Look at McCain's natal with the US birth chart:



---
So if you had followed along, as the assessments of the horaries progressed, it should have been clear that I felt the horaries were favoring BO and for that reason, I hung my hopes on the natal analysis.

And Yuzura, thank you for being objective in this. You are right in your assessment, as usual. Smile

RC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I have to say you have a rather selective memory when it comes to comments made to me in the past by Emma. One of them I believe you found quite humorous. I did not share your opinion and found it rather insulting as well as irritating - it was not amusing to me and your reaction to her seemed to encourage that behavior. I have continued to either ignore her comments altogether or use a lot of patience in responding as I have noticed that I am not the only one she has been confrontational with. I suppose I did finally run low on patience.


I have a tendency – if possible – to try to use humour to diffuse tension, and to draw attention to approaches that can generate conflict. But as a forum member you should be well aware that we recommend you to contact any moderator if you feel there are unjustified and offensive personal comments in the posts. You have never done this, and so now it is too late to even know what might have offended you in the past. Using a tit for tat approach to irritating comments in the forum is always going to result in escalating annoyance.

There are responses that I would like to make on your other points, but after consulting with another moderator it seems best to accept that this thread has run its course as far as the astrological discussion is concerned, and that there is too high a risk of impatience and annoyance coming through the posts to make it feasible to keep it open. Now that you have been able to express your opinion, and leaving my comments tempered by Yuzuru’s supportative response, this seems to be a good time to close the thread and bring this discussion to its close.

Regards to all
Deb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11
Page 11 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated