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Hi Theo

I must confess I tend not to pay much attention to the symbolism of specific astrological processes. I think most can manifest in so many different ways, and there are so many different ones operating all the time, that you either have to analyse the astrology in far more depth than I'm willing to (and currently capable of), or only use it to refine a view of the future that comes primarily from other sources.

I sometimes compare astrological prediction with trying to identify a number: in this analogy knowing 'real world' facts tells you that the answer lies within a certain range (the more facts, the narrower the range), while astrological factors tell you what prime numbers it is divisible by. Just as any set of prime numbers has an infinite number of products, so, as far as I can see, every astrological configuration has an infinite range of possible manifestations. So it can be impressively precise (if we know or guess correctly what range the answer is going to fall in) but can also be wildly wrong even when the astrological analysis is valid. My impression is that disagreement over interpretation stems as often from different views of the 'real world' context as it does from different understanding of astrological factors - and I think people often don't take that into account.

I start from a position where, observing the world (and my own hopes), I form a picture of the future by imagining the changes that I believe must happen; I then look at the astrology for confirmation and timing, and adjust my picture to fit. The integrity of government and law is a central interest for me and I feel that there is a possibility, at this point in history, to leave behind some of the fundamental flaws that have distorted the management of the world for centuries - there is no astrology behind that, but that feeling is a preconception that governs what I see when I look at what the planets are doing.

Some of the transits you mentioned - Saturn aspecting Uranus as it begins a new cycle of the Zodiac, and Pluto moving into Capricorn (and the very tight configurations in 2010, 2013 and 2014) - help me have confidence in that view of the future, but if I didn't already have that vision, I couldn't begin to predict anything. I suspect that's true for you too - that your analysis of the astrological climate of the coming decade essentially confirms expectations that you have formed by other means. To my mind that's how natural astrology works best, but I think it's important to keep it in plain view that that's what we're doing.

I'm not quite sure why I'm writing in this vein; but a thread like this can easily descend into just swapping dire predictions and I think we should be able to do more than that. Can we use astrology to help us understand the roots of the problems that are coming up? Does it offer any guidance to the attitudes we should adopt to face those problems? And can we use it to avoid repeating the mistakes that brought us to where we are now?

Malcolm

Astrological Forecasting

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Hi Malcolm,

I have always applied my practice of astrology to forecast the weather, both "outer" and "inner" weather to help others to properly prepare for the atmospheric climate caused by the revolutions of the Sun, Moon, planets and stars, including the motions of our own planet the Earth.

Some people have a false view of astrology through the word "predict" in that they believe astrology somehow "fates" them, therefore, there is nothing they can do to influence or change the future. This is very far from the truth, as we all have free will, but within the realm of the regulation of the transits, and therefore, we have choices how we "dress" for the weather, both outer, in the material, or natural world, and the "inner" weather of our own spiritual and mental lives.

Forecasts on coming global transits can be applied in many ways, and they are delievered according to the utilities and skills of the particular astrologer to the world-at-large. How people respond to forecasts, dire, or not, depends on the people themselves, as astrologers are only warners, serving as watchers of signs, and guiders of those who are in need of guidance.

However, you are right, we as astrologers should be able to do more than that. This means closing ranks from those who would turn astrology into a solely humanistic exercise without realizing that the great history of Astrology cannot be packaged into a singular modernist philosophy that seeks to seperate it from its true origins. Until this is done, it will not be easy for Astrology to return to its great heights where royalty, and all common people of the world learned to take care to listen to glad tidings and warnings from astrologers who take serious notes of the signs in the skies.

Concerning my perspective of the global Saturn/Uranus opposition, one of the easiest ways to not fall under the more unfavorable tone of this opposition is to cooperate with others of common positive interests, and to leave behind those who seek mischief, and harbor ill-will towards others. One of the influences of Saturn's opposition to Uranus is first bring to the surface, and then to expose negative, bad people, and their actions to daylight so others of goodwill can see and respond towards this by taking positive action.

Oppositions of this kind can have favorable results, depending on the reactions and preactions of others. Much depends on how people respond to one another, and this depends on morals, civility, compassion, and love ~ human qualities that are always free to use by all of us should we choose to do so.

However, should we not learn to cultivate and to spread these positive qualities more so in the world, then any malefic planetary energies will be alllowed to function, and will not be neutralized unless more people utilize the warnings of what will come in the future under global transits, and cultivate positive thought patterns that result in positive actions. In this way, people are able to transcend themselves, and, by doing so, the world progresses forward, and positively evolves.
Theo

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Concerning my perspective of the global Saturn/Uranus opposition, one of the easiest ways to not fall under the more unfavorable tone of this opposition is to cooperate with others of common positive interests, and to leave behind those who seek mischief, and harbor ill-will towards others. One of the influences of Saturn's opposition to Uranus is first bring to the surface, and then to expose negative, bad people, and their actions to daylight so others of goodwill can see and respond towards this by taking positive action
Negative, Bad people. Are these the rich, meat eaters, christians, country music fans, child abusers, humanistic astrologers. Common positive interests. Are these animal rights, depth psychology, globalisation, walking, vinyl collecting, anal sex, humanistic astrology.

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Billy wrote:Negative, Bad people. Are these the ... child abusers, humanistic astrologers.
I don't know exactly what Theo meant by "negative, bad people", Billy, and he may indeed include humanistic astrologers in that category - but I didn't see anything in his post that compels that interpretation.

In general fruitful discussion has to start by establishing some common ground. If you feel that what he said about humanistic astrology is unfair there are hundreds of ways to draw him into a debate on it; probably you'll find that either you've misunderstood his position or he's misunderstood the humanists. But what you posted doesn't lead anywhere useful.

Malcolm

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Hi there its perhaps worth focussing on Uranus and its cycles. By extension this also brings the focus on the United States since the two were 'born' at the similar times. In fact the Uranian discovery chart has a Uranus Mars Sag/Gemini Opposition and in the US charts along with Uranus in early Gemini we also have Mars in later Gemini. So plenty of scope for the US to be a forceful champion for the cause of "freedom".

Uranus last made a return to its discovery position in July 1947 and the return prior to that was August 1863.

The earlier return was the heart of the US civil war and 1863 brought Lincoln's famous Emancipation Proclamation and the Gettysburg Address both crucial to the cause of unfettered Uranian freedom.

The 1947 return was marked by the assertion of the Truman Doctrine with its support for Free Peoples on a global scale. It also marked the start of the cold war with the beginning of broadcast of the Voice of America and the setting up of the CIA, Joint Chiefs of staff, Departments of Defence , and National Security.

For the US the parallel 'project' in its attempt to curtail communism was the growth of free markets and under that 1947 return , the Marshall Plan with its enormous pump priming of the European economies which enabled huge post war growth.

Its noticeable that under the opposition to the Discovery chart position in 1987/88 we had both the fruition of that struggle against the communist world with the collapse of the Iron Curtain , and Black Monday in the UK and stock market convulsions.

Now - here we are approaching the waning Square to the Discovery chart position (exact April 2009). typically the squares bring concrete results and of course with the waning square there is some need to internalise or reassess those events.

Certainly for the US the "freedom project" and the unfettered free market has hit the buffers and is entering that closing square phase of reassessment and reflection. I guess the Saturn opposition to Uranus is giving us a foretaste of this closing phase which will undoubtably be even more in focus with the scope for events of April next year!

No doubt with the United States the forthcoming Uranus Discovery Return of 2031 will bring a whole new assertion of Uranian ideals as it has with the previous returns!!

mike c

ps of course the waxing square for Uranus this time around was 1967 - nuff said!
pps all those hard aspects to the discovery chart produced some pretty epic weather. storms and nasty winters, so one of the next two winters could be a record breaker???

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Nice review of the historical events under Uranus Mike... As for the global weather, I've been working on the climate for the 2010s, and confirmed my finding that we are heading towards a era of global cooling, from the current era of global warming which began in 1980, and will last, according to my calculations to about mid-2016.

From what I can ascertain, a era of Saturn is nearing by mid-2016 and will last to about the year 2052. It applies to the world's climate, which will see more La Ninas, and anomolous cooling events rather than the warming the world has experienced since the 1980s.

There is about another seven-and-a-half years left to this current global warming cycle as ruled by the Sun. With Saturn's lordship coming in mid-2016, increased winter-like storms, and more "classic winters" will be the norm for the northern hemisphere. This global cooling will reach it's peak cycle around 2034, and then begin to slide downwards gradually through the decade of the 2040s.
Theo

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I don't know exactly what Theo meant by "negative, bad people", Billy, and he may indeed include humanistic astrologers in that category - but I didn't see anything in his post that compels that interpretation.

In general fruitful discussion has to start by establishing some common ground. If you feel that what he said about humanistic astrology is unfair there are hundreds of ways to draw him into a debate on it; probably you'll find that either you've misunderstood his position or he's misunderstood the humanists. But what you posted doesn't lead anywhere useful.
I was trying to establish some common ground, as we need to know more what these concepts refer to. Humanistic astrologers, whoever Theo conceptualises these as being, are a side issue I?d have thought.

In simplistic terms this opposition is an encounter between the old and the new, and the dynamic of change. It seems improbable that someone could be able to define 'bad, negative and common positive interests', in ways that strike me as generating a fruitful discussion. However lets see if Theo can defend his language in ways we can make sense of before jumping to any conclusions.

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Theo wrote:
Concerning my perspective of the global Saturn/Uranus opposition, one of the easiest ways to not fall under the more unfavorable tone of this opposition is to cooperate with others of common positive interests, and to leave behind those who seek mischief, and harbor ill-will towards others.
There are some millions of folks out there with strong religious beliefs who find those of us who study and use astrology to be not at all acceptable and most certainly to be doing the mischief of the Devil. If they 'leave us behind' they will have a much easier time during the Saturn-Uranus opposition.

There are many thousands (millions?) of us out there studying and using astrology who find those of such strong religious beliefs to be causing mischief through the intolerant forcing of their beliefs upon others. We will certainly have a much better time during the Saturn-Uranus opposition if we leave them and their intolerance behind.

So the opposition period should be a piece of cake. Just pick your group.

The point seems to be one of only cooperating with those who share your beliefs. You don't need to question or change your beliefs and practices, nor do you need to leave your comfort zone and accept the beliefs of others. Just choose the people you want to cooperate with.


Malcolm wrote:
I'm not quite sure why I'm writing in this vein; but a thread like this can easily descend into just swapping dire predictions and I think we should be able to do more than that. Can we use astrology to help us understand the roots of the problems that are coming up? Does it offer any guidance to the attitudes we should adopt to face those problems? And can we use it to avoid repeating the mistakes that brought us to where we are now?
No. We don't need astrology. In fact, I think that collectively we should leave it far behind in working with the world's problems. Observation, facts, reasoning ? and a compassionate application of them ? work just fine. Astrology seems to bring in excessively subjective opinions, religious or philosophical bias, a distasteful (and dangerous) urge to be a prophet for one's society, and feet hovering some distance above the solid ground.

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Kirk wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
I'm not quite sure why I'm writing in this vein; but a thread like this can easily descend into just swapping dire predictions and I think we should be able to do more than that. Can we use astrology to help us understand the roots of the problems that are coming up? Does it offer any guidance to the attitudes we should adopt to face those problems? And can we use it to avoid repeating the mistakes that brought us to where we are now?


No. We don't need astrology. In fact, I think that collectively we should leave it far behind in working with the world's problems. Observation, facts, reasoning ? and a compassionate application of them ? work just fine. Astrology seems to bring in excessively subjective opinions, religious or philosophical bias, a distasteful (and dangerous) urge to be a prophet for one's society, and feet hovering some distance above the solid ground.
I think this is an excellent problem and point of discussion. I think that from the point of my philosophy or politics, or whatever rostrum or molehill I choose to stand on, astrology should provide me with information and the opportunity to manaeuver correctly according my point of perspective. But my astrology should not be biased and free from the philosophy and politics that I wish to examine or measure - or else I am simply due to loos myself and attempt to confirm my longings with a double 'yes'.
http://www.astronor.com

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No. We don't need astrology. In fact, I think that collectively we should leave it far behind in working with the world's problems. Observation, facts, reasoning ? and a compassionate application of them ? work just fine.
I should not discourage youthful optimism but the idea that we can solve all the problems of the world by rational debate is plain silly,contrary to evidence and out of place in an astrological forum.Are we really disciples of reason as we debate religion and stargazing in the 21st century? Maybe we cannot halt disaster by prediction but if anyone feels astrology has no value then why bother studying it?

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Andrew wrote:
I think that from the point of my philosophy or politics, or whatever rostrum or molehill I choose to stand on, astrology should provide me with information and the opportunity to manaeuver correctly according my point of perspective.

Astrology works well as a personal guide and illuminating viewpoint. Like other philosophical or religious thoughts and beliefs it can make a person stronger and help him or her develop a clearer and larger view. But to take astrology directly into the realms of economic or social restructuring is another matter. We prepare best silently and privately in our own way and astrology can be part of that backstage preparation.


Matt wrote:
I should not discourage youthful optimism but the idea that we can solve all the problems of the world by rational debate is plain silly,contrary to evidence and out of place in an astrological forum.
Matt, please take another look. I wrote ?Observation, facts, reasoning ? and a compassionate application of them ? work just fine?. I even used italics for emphasis so as to be understood in the way I meant.

Your reply is very telling. You seem to have learned the New Age lesson: Reasoning is to be ridiculed and despised now as incomplete, coldhearted, and a tool of the patriarchy. But let's do keep in mind that the astrology we're using is completely Hellenized and thoroughly based on rational and logical philosophical and numerical structures. Our astrology has very little about it that's free-flowing, soft and feely. That is to be found in our compassionate application of it.

To come back to this thread's topic, 'scare-'em-silly' predictions of an upcoming economic depression, high crime and unemployment, social upheaval and heartbreak for the working masses look much more harmful and less productive than rational debate. The debate and discussions produce possible options and open to a sense of what alternatives there may be. Frightening predictions can possibly lead to productive discussions, but they most commonly stop progress through fear-induced dread and a sense of helplessness. Negative pronouncements seldom inspire. Those who concentrate on such predictions don't clearly see the harm they are causing ? or they don't care.
Are we really disciples of reason as we debate religion and stargazing in the 21st century?
Why not? ?Disciples of reason? can talk about anything. In fact, that's exactly what they do. Disciples of emotion and irrationality sometimes like to skip those time-consumimg debates and throw bombs at each other over such things as religion and stargazing.
Maybe we cannot halt disaster by prediction but if anyone feels astrology has no value then why bother studying it?
How did we arrive at the statement that astrology has no value?

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Kirk wrote:Quote: Maybe we cannot halt disaster by prediction but if anyone feels astrology has no value then why bother studying it?

How did we arrive at the statement that astrology has no value?
I think that is a fair comment, either as a statement, reflection or an indirect question, Kirk.
Guy, do I have sometimes have problems in working out where you are coming from. :lol:
I admire your rationale and sense of reasoning, but some times it is like being up against a Geoffrey Dean look-alike!

I think you should consider this a compliment, Kirk. Please give us some room and space to explore the embroider of our astrological philosophies, but then continue to help us work out the technicalities of reality. :'
http://www.astronor.com