61
As for Lilly turning blue at my suggestion of discarding the chart, what coulur do you thing he'd turn into at your suggestion that the 5th house shows lovers?
I'm not sure that I ever suggested that. The 5th is the house of fun, pleasure and recreation therefore it seemed to me that the third party would be in some way connected with those things. Hence I wrote in an earlier post:
On the other hand, there is no reception at all between Mars and the Sun (ruler of 5th from 7th, the alleged romantic interest of the husband), neither is there any separating or applying aspect between them. This shows clearly that there was no prior affair between them and no deep mutual interest in having one.
By using the phrase "romantic interest" I wasn't thinking so much of the woman as the activity.
I also made reference to the husband having fun and enjoying the contact but I never intended to imply that the 5th is the house of lovers and I apologise if that is how it came across.
====
Pete

63
Hi Steven

It sounds like the response will be well worth waiting for. I love it when we start writing 'a little thing' and then it takes on a life of its own. I suspect that a PDF file will be the best solution here, but I'll send you a PM about this.

Deb

64
First I?d like to say (after examining this question much closer) that with such questions as this, it?s probably very wise to heed the words of a man who most certainly had a great amount of integrity and wisdom; William Lilly.

Quote:
?I must charge all sonnes (and of course daughters ) of Art to be sparing in delivering judgment upon these queries, rather to be silent; for as men (and women) we may erre, and so by delivering an unlucky judgment, be authors of much mischiefe?


This wise council was given with regards to questions precisely of this nature: "What is going on between my husband and her?" (See, ?Significations of the Seventh House. viz. of Marriage. Enemies. Law-suits. Contracts. Wars. Fugitives. Thefts? in Lilly?s Christian Astrology, Book II)

The fact of the matter is that Sahl, Bonatti and Lilly all deal with this subject. Surprisingly enough, there is not one poster who has offered up what these forefathers in the art of Horary had to say.
Hi Steven, Lilly's quote refers to "delivering an unlucky judgment". So far, your judgement has been the most (if not the only) "unlucky" for the querent, suggesting that her husband will soon replace her by another woman, so I think this is the heeding that you should have taken in the first place -IF you had spoken directly to the querent, which of course you hadn't - except if the author of this thread has been diligently sending our mails to the querent which I hope she hasn't!!! But that's another subject entirely; I don't think it's surprising, as you say, Steven, that nobody has pointed out the need for diplomacy etc. We astrologers (men and women alike) here on the forum are just discussing charts and thereby practising our art; we are NOT giving judgement to the querent! How (and if) the astrologer posting an example here will transmit our judgements to the querent is entirely his (her) responsibility. I'm sure we all know this. This thread was not about astrologer's ethic, and if we bring this in it's like we're opening a new thread.

Looking forward to your new interpretation :-)
Ema
http://www.emakurent.com
http://www.astroakademija.si
http://www.astrojoy.com

65
So far, your judgement has been the most (if not the only) "unlucky" for the querent, suggesting that her husband will soon replace her by another woman
It would not be an unlucky judgement if it proved to be the case. It would probably help the healing process, if the querent realised that this was looking inevitable and so what happened was not the result of the responses she made. In the long run, an unfaithful husband leaving a wife might be the ?luckiest? thing that could ever happen to her.

But this all seems by-the-by, since Steven did say that he wanted to take some time and revise his judgement. I really like the fact that he is still interested in this question, and still considering the chart, even though the thread was slipping down the page. I see too many questions get posted in this forum that seem easy to ask and quick to dismiss. My concern about the quoted comment is that it makes it sound like we are in some sort of point-scoring game here, which is not what this forum is about. All opinions ought to be fed back to the poster and treated with respect. This thread has been a bit volatile from the start, so can anyone who makes any future comments please ensure that the spirit is one of discussing and sharing ideas for the benefit of the original poster and each other?

66
I seem to be coming rather late into this discussion. However, there are two things I must remark:

1) How does the question change from ""What is going on between my husband and her?" to "Is my husband having an affair?" because rule number one is not to change the question by a single word. Yes, sure I can see the relevance but the original question asks for a description of the nature of the contact between the husband and the woman. The second question is rewritten and requires a simple 'yes' or 'no'. Is he having an affair or isn't he?

2) According to my observations the question is asked in the hour of Mercury and not Venus. This is because I am using Regiomontanus houses and the Sun is definately in the 2nd half of the 10th house. So the location of the Sun indicates that the hour has moved from Venus and is now the hour of Mercury. Using a quadrant house system I have to make sure that the planetary hour agrees with this system. However, if it was the hour of Venus I would have to ask myself if the question in anyway could be asked 'back-to-front' or whether something else was going on - and infact I believe that when the lord of lady of the hour rules the radical ascendant, this is in fact an indication of safety. (i.e. the ship is safe and not cast away.)

I take the 7th house for the quesitive, the woman's husband. Mercury as lord of the hour is combust on the cusp of the 5th from the 7th. Mercury rules Gemini, who is intercepted in the 3rd from the 7th. This describes their secret and flirting communication. The Moon's North is semi-square the cusp of the 7th, which shows disturbance and the flexing of muscles- but nothing else. And lastly the Moon, lady of the 10th, is in the degree of Mars' fall - and certainly in trouble, but void of course and nothing happened.

The Moon casts her dexter sextile to the cusp of the 3rd from the 7th (the 9th), the dexter aspect being defensive and on safer grounds and not as speculative as the sinister aspect. Observing Luna's inconjunct aspect to Pluto, there is actually a Yod there with Pluto as focal planet - and Pluto is just about as cadent as you can get. So I don't actually think they had a physical affair going on - but on the mental plane, sure. Maybe this could be compared to the reading of pornography or the visiting of internet sites of a dubious reputation?
My conclusion is that the husband appears to be telling the truth, but whether that helps the matter and helps the parties get to the core of their actual needs is a different matter.
http://www.astronor.com

67
My concern about the quoted comment is that it makes it sound like we are in some sort of point-scoring game here, which is not what this forum is about.
Hi Deb, I'm really sorry that my comment sounds like that to you because it wasn't meant so. I just wanted to say that I didn't see the need to discuss astrologer's ethics in this place, because that would mean we're changing the thread. Except, of course, if someone saw the chart as very "unlucky" for the querent and he/she felt a need to discuss it from that angle. It (still) appears to me that Steven saw the chart as giving the most "unfortunate" result for the querent, and that's why I wondered why he expressed his surprise at the others' posters not having "offered up what these forefathers in the art of horary had to say" - if I may quote him. By this I was somehow "defending" myself and the other posters who didn't feel the need to go into those details, and if that gave the impression that I was scoring points, I'm - again - very sorry. Believe me if I wanted to do this, I'd rather go to the sports pages ;-) This has nothing to do with the rest of Steven's post where he's offering a new interpretation. I'm more than happy that Steven has revised the chart, and I'm looking forward to what he has to say, because I see his posts as extremely creative and stimulative to the rest of us, on account of his approaching the chart by employing ancient techniques, like those of Sahl and Mashallah. I do hope that my posts won't give that impression again - as I hope for the other posters' posts too.
Ema
http://www.emakurent.com
http://www.astroakademija.si
http://www.astrojoy.com

68
That is a great entry, Ema. :' It is difficult to resolve and debate questions of a controversial nature together with the rather coarse way that things are put over and interpretated in medievil texts. In such a terrain it is so easy to get off track, become misunderstood or end up in the wilderness. I think you show great sensitivity and understanding of the problem, and your efforts to clarify this problem are much appreciated! :)
http://www.astronor.com

69
Andrew wrote:That is a great entry, Ema
I agree.
Ema wrote:I was somehow "defending" myself and the other posters who didn't feel the need to go into those details
Yes, that was how I understood your observation too. I didn't see it as point-scoring. As you say
if I wanted to do this, I'd rather go to the sports pages
Good point! :lala

70
Thanks for explaining Ema. We all know that the words on the screen can get misunderstood because it is hard to tell where the poster is being humorous or putting a more subtle emphasis than we realise. Because this thread has been a little ?testy? from the start, I felt it was time for a reminder about treating all posters ? yourself included, with more respect. The forum needs a ?heads up? every now and again because in our enthusiasm we forget it is a public place. This is a special thread because we have a collection of top rate astrologers with expertise in different areas venturing opinion. I?d like to encourage this standard of interaction by making sure that all members ? especially those who use real names, as most are doing here ? feel appreciated and respected. As you can see, you are very much appreciated and respected here yourself, so thank you for being understanding about my post.

Deb

71
I think you show great sensitivity and understanding of the problem, and your efforts to clarify this problem are much appreciated!
Thanks :oops:
I'd just like to add that I'm sure our dear Deb has reminded me of my "offence" because she worried that Steven might be put off by my seemingly critical statements - and I do appreciate that concern! I'm sure we're all following Steven's insightful posts with interest, and I'd be the first to be very sorry if Steven was in any way offended. Now let's get back to work :-)
Ema
http://www.emakurent.com
http://www.astroakademija.si
http://www.astrojoy.com

72
Bringing an old horary back into the present - 10 months down the road; here's the current status, and a follow-up horary. It would be interesting to see if the results of this new horary match the original, and how accurate was the original in terms of what has transpired over the past 10 months.

As it turned out, the husband confessed (over the course of the next several months) the fact that he had, in fact, had a torrid 7 month sexual affair with this woman which started 7 months before the proposed wedding, and ended (at least the physical aspect of it), just before he left for America. AND it wasn't just a physical affair, he LOVED her as well! (Steven, your analysis and article were spot on!! My compliments...)

In fact, he slept with the other woman 2 days before the wedding! Then when he came to America, he felt so cut off from the life that he knew (and I guess he still loved the other one and missed her), he just picked up with her again via IMs and Skype. This continued for another 8 months, until the notorious IMs were discovered. The whole truth (assuming that the whole truth has, in fact, been confessed), came out in bits and pieces over several months, because he was so afraid that she would throw him out.

In a nutshell, the husband is now extremely remorseful and has tried everything that he possibly can to make it up to her. He continues to emphasize to her that if he loved the other woman more, why would he even consider leaving his home country, his family and everything else, when it would have been much easier for him to just be with the other woman? My friend decided to hold on to the marriage for several reasons; (1) she felt paralyzed to actually do anything (2) she couldn't throw him out, because he had nowhere to go (3) because they had a history, and in her heart of hearts, I guess she did not want to let another marriage go (this is her 2nd). But the extent of resentment that she feels over what happened has not diminished in any way. For 10 months, she has tried to make a go of it, but the resentment is deep rooted and she can't seem to get over it.

So 10 months later, she thought things would get better, but she still isn't over it, she doesn't see herself healing and she can't let it go. Yet, they continue to live together and he keeps trying. And so, this time, another question, much more direct than the first:

"What is the future of my relationship with my husband"?
Question asked June 19, 2009, Princeton, NJ, USA
Leo ascendant, 19 deg 05 minutes.

She is the Sun, and he is Saturn. Sun is 28 degrees in Gemini, indicating that she is at the end of a cycle. Sun separating from a trine with Jupiter, and void of course after that.

Moon is surprisingly very strong - I guess you have to give her credit for holding out this long - (I mean, knowing that your husband slept with another woman that he LOVED 2 days before the wedding is a biggie, in my opinion...) Moon, angular and exalted in Taurus, separating from Venus by just a few minutes and conjoining Mars, all by just a few minutes, all positioned in the 10th.

The Moon comes to a trine to Saturn in 2 degrees. However, it conjuncts nasty Mars first, which is ruler of the 9th and the 4rth. I think the Moon is translating the light from Venus to Mars. This seems to indicate to me that it is in her power to make the relationship succeed, because she is so strong.

But, my question is, is Mars prohibiting this? Or can Mars be said to represent the husband, and Venus represent the wife, and the Moon is translating the light between them and bringing them together?

It is also interesting that once Sun gets into Cancer, it will come to an opposition to Pluto in the 5th - something's going to happen here.. re-birth of their marriage, or a complete breakdown?

It would also be interesting to see if the original horary reflected in any way what has happened over the past 10 months, and what this horary is saying now.

What do you think? Thanks.