In fact what we see in Ben's recent translations is that often what is "on the querents mind" is not as easily identifiable as one planets signification, but rather the intricate workings of an entire chart (the consultation chart).

Hi Steven, since I have been (as professional astrologer) seeing clients for about 18 years and employing the so-called consultation chart regularly for at least the last 10 years, I don't need Ben's recent translations to tell me what the consultation chart is about The Moon's position in the consultation chart, as well as in a horary chart - I mean particularly the house position and aspects, most clearly and most frequently shows what's on the queren't mind, or what is the subject of the query. This is obviously not the whole truth since I'm not into writing an essay now (asc. ruler is very important too, as is, finally, the whole chart, I just mention priorities) but again: this I'm speaking from my own experience, not from reading anybody's translations.
I'm not saying that those works don't interest me (Ben's recent translation is at my bedside and thanks for spurring my interest, I surely will try harder to go more deeply into that difficult stuff ) but they can't and never will replace my experience.

I wish I could see the Moon as void of course. I cannot simply because she is joined to the Sun. Sahl was quite precise in this description when he says in his introduction that planets can be conjoined (bodily) in two different signs but they cannot "see" each other. This situation then implies a "wait until they see" meaning and as Masha'allah teaches, when such a condition exists it doesn't so much mean "end of the rope" as it does a delay or waiting period before the results materialise.

OK, I know what you mean. You have drawn your conclusion that the querent will be replaced by another woman, with whom (following this logic) the querent's husband "can't see" yet. Is that right? So when would this be likely to happen? (Personally, again, I miss any testimonies of divorce from his present wife in that chart, I'm just following your logic). I mean, if this planetary position is telling you such a story, the question remains, when is that change likely to happen?

By his several examples he also demonstrates that it certainly doesn't mean "nothing can be done".

This refers to the void Moon. I found only 2 examples (in that book) with the Moon at the end of the sign (and in the condition which I'd call void), and in at least one definitely "nothing could be done". I can't comment the other as yet.

Hi Kannan, thanks for popping in. Every word of your post makes sense to me.

Enjoy your leisurely day at work Steven. If that hasn't already changed by now.

(Bet it has )

--- Oops, came back to edit this as I see I posted at the same time as Ema. Now my post looks a bit trivial tucked on the end of such weighty discussion. Not sure whether I should apologise for wasting space or add in a 'hi' to Ema. Oh well, I'll add a comment here that I won't get access for a few days, but should get back to the forum around Monday or Tuesday.

I?d like to offer up a comment about the Moon?s signification because this is something I?ve come to have quite a strong opinion about over time.

Hi Deb, I hope I didn't give a false impression that I'm not aware of all the possible manifestations and significations of the Moon... Every word you say makes sense, of course, and I agree 100%! I stressed that Moon as the querent's co-ruler here just to show that she is equally justified in being the queren's coruler as for being, perhaps, the ruler of another woman. Surely, we'd need descriptions of both ladies etc. and especially more information about the whole situation - which hopefully Taurus7 will provide, and keep us updated. Thanks for driving the matters home so to say, and enjoy your weekend :-)

Deb:

One day when I was flipping through a large file of closed horaries it struck me how - in general terms ? the Moon had been far more descriptive of the quesited than the querent. By ?quesited? I mean ?the thing asked about generally? not the other person in relationship charts. (So if it was a relationship chart, it would be descriptive of the way the relationship went, not the way the other person looked!)

The Moon changes sign in about 2 degrees, and then conjuncts the Sun in another 9. Now, if the husband is represented by the Sun, the question is - is she getting burned up by the Sun, or is she conjoining the Sun? So if the Moon is representing how the relationship will go, is the relationship going bust or will it end in a union, some form of perfection between the wife and the husband? Since the two situations are so completely oppositte each other, how do we decide which one it is? On the other hand, does the Moon represent yet another woman, as per Steven? Or is it the original "other woman"? This is getting quite confusing...However, I don't think we should discard the fact that the Moon is very strong in her own sign and in the 10th. So how does this add to the signfication in the context of this horary? Why would the Moon be in the 10th when she is thinking of what is going on between her husband and the other woman? If she is in such a weak state of mind, how can the Moon be so strong in her own sign?

And while I agree that the Sun is the husband, the Sun is in Leo which makes him strong as well? But where is the strength of the Sun in this case? His marriage is in a very shaky position; he has broken off contacts with this so-called very close friend whose contact he enjoyed and looked forward to on a continuous basis for at least 7 months. Why is the SUn so strong? Is it because he has managed to sustain his marriage despite what happened?

If I were to find my own words for this I?d say ? identify the focus of the query, because the Moon is never far away from that.

I think it is key to the situation to identify exactly what the Moon is doing here, and who or what it represents. The focus of the query was "What is going on between my husband and her".

Steve raised a very interesting question in his post:

In this particular question however, the querents question was surprisingly not about herself and her relationship. The question posted here was what relationship her husband had to another woman.

I think my friend will not ask a question about her relationship with her husband because she is afraid of what the answer might be, and in her heart, she wants to hold on to this relationship and her marriage.

The querent wants to believe her husband that there was nothing going on; but still can't get her head around the nature of the IMs, and how he could speak to other woman like he did, while at the same time, expressed support and love to her; despite their differences, over the past months while this was going on in the sidelines.

Ema said:

Surely, we'd need descriptions of both ladies etc. and especially more information about the whole situation - which hopefully Taurus7 will provide, and keep us updated.

I can certainly describe the querent: petite; dark hair; bold, striking eyes, big smile, small hands and feet, curvacious, looks younger than her age by 5 to 7 years at least. I can't really describe the other woman because I can only go by the description given by my friend: short, dark hair, open, wide face, open smile, somewhat heavier, very well endowed - if you know what I mean.

But not sure what details you are looking for about the whole situation?

Hi Taurus7, one of the reasons I'm so uneasy abot charts where the Moon is at the end of a sign and in orb of aspect with another planet in the next sign is the timing problem that this creates. In this case, I'd ask the querent what happened between them 2,5 days after she asked the question (maybe just 2 days because the Moon is so fast), since that is the amount of time (Moon in a cardinal sign and angular house - could be hours as well!) that elapses until her entering Leo. This could give us some further clue. Now, when the Moon goes through Leo (a fixed sign), time units change. I'm not sure about how to combine both and I thought that maybe Steven has a clue there. As for "more information" - I just wanted you to keep us updated, that's all. I know you're not allowed to peep into their bedroom And BTW I'm still interested what this guy has in gemini :-)
As for the Sun's strength and dignitiy, he's the one in power here, obviously! Also, this suggests that he is honest and about to keep his promise. That's another reason why I supposed they won't part, at least not so soon. Now I'm off to the seaside for the day, we have lovely weather here in Slovenia and the coast is just an hour away

Hi Taurus7

So if the Moon is representing how the relationship will go, is the relationship going bust or will it end in a union, some form of perfection between the wife and the husband?

The Moon is signifying the relationship between the husband and the other woman. That is the subject of the "thing asked about generally" (Deb's words), not the relationship between the husband and wife.

The way I see it, the Moon is strong in its own sign, indicating the relationship has been going along very comfortably, but now it has been exposed - shown by its position in the 10th house. It is VOC which indicates that the relationship, as Lilly says, "does not go handsomely forward". It's also near the end of the sign which I would say is an indication that the relationship is coming to an end.

I prefer to use primary significators, so I would give Mars to the husband. It is separating from a trine to Jupiter so I would suggest this signifies the other woman, especially since you've now told us she is "well endowed" There is mixed reception between Mars and Jupiter. Jupiter rules husband's 9th - she is from another country. (I use Topocentric so Sag is on the cusp, although I realise with Regio that Scorpio is there with Sag intercepted, but that would make sense too since she is hidden.) This trine is separating in both directions since Jupiter is retro so perhaps she is backing off too, now she knows that the wife is aware of the situation.

I realise this is projecting a bit far ahead in terms of the chart, but it's interesting to note in real time that Jupiter is S/D on 8 Sept and Mars squares it the day before. A few days later Venus conjoins Mars. Venus (the wife) now much happier in Libra and receiving Mars. Perhaps this means she will be able to forgive and forget and that things will get back on an even keel? Let's hope so

There seems to be an increasing plethora of opinions coming forward as to what is the correct signification for this chart. Who would have thought that such a simple question could ignite such a debate? :-)
For my part I'm prepared to accept that the Sun can be used as a secondary significator of the husband but I still prefer to use Mars as the prime suspect, as it were, simply because of it's placement in the wife's 12th house. This is the house of hidden enemies (and by implication, betrayal) so for me the symbolism fits very well.

Deb I agree with you when you say that there has to be an aspect to show some kind of contact or connection between two parties. Once we find the aspect then the nature of the receptions - if any - will give us clues as to the quality of the connection. If we take Mars for him and the Sun (ruler of his 5th) as the other woman, there is no aspect and no reception, which tells us that there is no relationship of any kind taking place. This was my original position on the matter and it was met with skepticism because it was obvious that the husband and woman knew each other, else he would not have confessed that she was a close friend.
This is a good point but in my mind it raises another: if we're going to take the position that there must be aspectual contact - and then hopefully reception - to indicate a connection between the husband and the 3rd party, then surely we must take the identical position to identify the relationship between the husband and the wife? After all, this is the ONLY relationship that we can say anything about with any certainty. I think we're all in agreement that the primary significator of the wife is Venus and that her co-ruler is the Moon. Here Venus is not in aspect with any of the husband's significators but the Moon aspects both of them. She separates from Mars and applies to the Sun. While in Cancer Mars receives her and when she enters Leo the Sun receives her. Both of these positions indicate contact and a certain amount of generosity and warmth (no pun intended) on the part of the husband towards her (the wife), yet it is all one way, as the Moon doesn't receive either one of his significators.

Now let us look at the 3rd party. If we take the Sun as ruling the husband and Mercury, (co) ruling the 9th for her, we see them conjoined on the cusp of the 5th house of pleasure, romance and recreation. So we have a contact, but what is the quality of it? The Sun receives her but she in turn doesn't receive him at all. A bit like the husband/wife scenario! I don't take Mercury to be the third party for reasons I'll go into shortly.
Ficina offers up another possibility when she suggests Jupiter to be the sig' of the other woman, based on Topocentric house rulership of the husband's 9th house and the fact that his primary sig' separates from Jupiter and there is a mixed reception between them. That is very soon to dissolve however as Mars is quickly separating and will almost immediately move out of Jupiter's terms. I like this candidate but in my view it only works if you don't use the Regiomontanus house system. I'm not using this argument to promote one system or another, I'm just making the point that finding the correct significator depends quite a bit on which house system one uses.
Finally I just want to throw another candidate into the mix, and I base this on the husband's assertion that he and the third party are close friends. (see initial post in the thread). This ought to draw the eye to the turned 11th house, where we find Saturn as significator. Here Saturn is on the cusp of the queren'ts 12th (hidden) and in the sign of the querent's fall. Venus, in turn, is in the sign of Saturn's detriment. It could be inferred from this that the woman envies the querent and the querent is extremely wary of the woman. The Sun and Saturn are not in aspect, so if we are to take the Sun as significator then we would have to say that there is not, nor has there been a relationship. Mars and Saturn were conjoined in the past so we can say there was a relationship, but was it one of any significance? The conjunction occured in early Virgo where the was no reception from either planet to the other, so from this we can only conclude that they knew each other but the nature of the relationship wasn't deep. Let us remember, the question posed was what is happening, not "who is this woman that my husband is having an affair with?" All we are being asked to do is comment on the nature of the relationship and in order to do that it is absolutely vital that we choose the correct significators. The woman is the self-confessed friend of the husband, even the wife acknowledges that, therefore it seems only logical to me to see her as the sig' of the turned 11th. Let us not forget either that Neptune occupies this house, and opposes Venus. To me this well describes the confusion, disorientation and sense of betrayal that the querent is feeling due to her husband's relationship with the woman.

Finally it's good to observe that Venus will soon trine Pluto which offers up the hope of renewal and a new beginning for the querent.

Just my two-penn'orth...
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Pete

There seems to be an increasing plethora of opinions coming forward as to what is the correct signification for this chart. Who would have thought that such a simple question could ignite such a debate? :-)

True. Seems to me like it would be wise to discard charts with the Moon in late degrees (and/or) void after all It's a "caution against judgment", suggesting that "all things go hardly", as Lilly said. Astrologers' judgement included :-)

Seems to me like it would be wise to discard charts with the Moon in late degrees (and/or) void after all It's a "caution against judgment", suggesting that "all things go hardly", as Lilly said. Astrologers' judgement included

Except of course in this case the Moon is not VOC, and Lilly would turn blue at the suggestion of discarding a chart just because the Moon was void or there was some other Consideration in play
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Pete

Ficina:

so I would give Mars to the husband. It is separating from a trine to Jupiter so I would suggest this signifies the other woman, especially since you've now told us she is "well endowed"

Ficina, what an interesting observation that no one else caught. I think you have something here, especially in terms of the signification indicated of what was, and the direction that Mars and Jupiter are moving.

the Moon is strong in its own sign, indicating the relationship has been going along very comfortably, but now it has been exposed - shown by its position in the 10th house

Notice that Jupiter is in his turned 10th; and along the same lines, "exposed", as you say.

There is mixed reception between Mars and Jupiter...This trine is separating in both directions since Jupiter is retro so perhaps she is backing off too, now she knows that the wife is aware of the situation.

This also fits, since there was some form of closeness between the two, and the mixed reception shows it. I don't have SolarFire with me here, so I don't know what level of mixed reception there is between the two.

I realise this is projecting a bit far ahead in terms of the chart, but it's interesting to note in real time that Jupiter is S/D on 8 Sept and Mars squares it the day before.

Could that indicate some form of tense contact between the husband and the other woman?

A few days later Venus conjoins Mars. Venus (the wife) now much happier in Libra and receiving Mars. Perhaps this means she will be able to forgive and forget and that things will get back on an even keel? Let's hope so

At a purely personal level - all astrology aside - I think I like your interpretation the best...it gives some hope, along with your best wishes. Thank you.

Ema:

In this case, I'd ask the querent what happened between them 2,5 days after she asked the question (maybe just 2 days because the Moon is so fast),

I asked her, it appears that two days after the IM messages were discovered was the weekend, and she said that it was a very "make-up" type of a weekend, where he was very loving and professed that he will do whatever it takes to make it up to her. She was quite "numb" from everything and she accepted his advances. But reality and the doubts came rushing back again with the start of the next week. She says it hits her in "waves" - it comes and goes.

Pete:

Here Venus is not in aspect with any of the husband's significators but the Moon aspects both of them. She separates from Mars and applies to the Sun. While in Cancer Mars receives her and when she enters Leo the Sun receives her. Both of these positions indicate contact and a certain amount of generosity and warmth (no pun intended) on the part of the husband towards her (the wife), yet it is all one way, as the Moon doesn't receive either one of his significators.

I think what you are saying "fits" if the Moon does not represent the wife and instead represents the "relationship", of the thing asked about, as both Deb and Ficina have indicated.

Finally I just want to throw another candidate into the mix, and I base this on the husband's assertion that he and the third party are close friends. (see initial post in the thread). This ought to draw the eye to the turned 11th house, where we find Saturn as significator.

I'm having trouble with this. She is the ruler of the 11th but only from the husband's perspective, but it is not the husband that has asked the question, it is the wife. So how could the other woman signify the ruler of his eleventh?