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Sun Co-ruler of Querent in Horary
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 15

Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:17 am    Post subject: Sun Co-ruler of Querent in Horary Reply with quote

https://sites.google.com/site/astrochip/sun-co-ruler-of-querent

I am not looking for a delineation. The querent did contact the quesited, and the quesited responded to the querent.

But, I do have a general question in response to the following statement:

Quote:
Lilly tells us to consider the Sun as a general significator for the man and Venus as a general significator for the woman.


The Sun is conjunct Merc Rx in the 7th (Regiomontanus) in this chart.

but, I always think back to the proceeding excerpt:

Quote:
Any planet conjunct one of the main significators almost certainly shows an involvement elsewhere: in the old texts the word 'copulation' is used as a synonym for 'conjunction', which makes the point quite clearly enough! Real Astrology Applied, John Frawley


In the horary question, L1 applies to Venus and L7 applies to the turned L3, which quasi-supports Lilly, but I can't help thinking that Frawley is right.

Based on experience, and textual sources, are there examples of when the Sun or Venus does not co-rule a querent/quesited in relationship questions other than when these planets are not main significators?

IMO/experience, assigning at most five planets to the querent/quesited has made me feel sketchy.
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wca



Joined: 20 Jul 2013
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Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Chip,

Quote:
Lilly tells us to consider the Sun as a general significator for the man and Venus as a general significator for the woman.


this idea was borne out of an ancient astrological principle that dates back to Babylonian times and was unfortunately not well explained by Lilly. the central phenomena under discussion here is the synodic cycle of Venus, where Venus is said to be the consort of the Sun. the Sun was seen as the masculine principle of virility, and Venus the feminine principle of fertility and reproduction. the relationship between Venus and the Sun was used to measure mundane cycles of fertility in general and although it may well have practical mundane applications, it has little to no relevance in traditional horary judgment.

it is also critical to note that in these Sun/Venus references, the relationship under scrutiny is exclusively the one between Venus and the Sun. no other planet is considered. to put this into practical terms, we wouldn't look at L1 to signify the querent, and then to Venus or the Sun (depending on the gender expression of the quesited) to determine relationship success. for that we still look at the 1st and 7th rulers and their connections (or lack thereof) in the chart.

Quote:
Based on experience, and textual sources, are there examples of when the Sun or Venus does not co-rule a querent/quesited in relationship questions other than when these planets are not main significators?


yes, all relationship horaries are examples of this. as stated above, the Sun and Venus are only considered together as a pair, and even then only in respect to general, mundane fertility cycles. as the Sun and Venus do not rule opposing signs, you will never have a relationship horary where the Sun and Venus are primary significators.

Quote:
IMO/experience, assigning at most five planets to the querent/quesited has made me feel sketchy.


it should, because it is not meant to work that way. the houses cannot get up and move around the chart and interact with each other, but planets can and do. we assign significators to each house because they have the highest level of dignity over the cusp of that house. it's like sending the king on his own errand to represent his own affairs and effect his own business. Capricorn and Aquarius are the kingdoms of Saturn, and so when we see these signs on the cusp of a relevant house we take Saturn (the planet with principal dignity in these signs) to represent the affairs of that house. planets posited within said house do not replace or join Saturn as that house's ruler, but rather color Saturn's expression.

a practical example: say the Ascendant has Pisces on the cusp. Jupiter will become our significator for the querent. let's also say Mars is positioned in Pisces near the first house cusp. this would indicate that the querent is behaving a bit more martial than they would otherwise -- aggressive, impatient, and argues the querent his afflicting himself in his own affairs. we would wrap this into signification, of course, but never allow Mars to replace Jupiter as the querent's significator.

planets in a relevant house also give more information on the person's physical characteristics. to continue with the example above, Mars in Pisces near the cusp of the first gives the querent's skin a more warm, red complexion (Jupiter gives the same), makes the eyes beadier, gives freckles in the face (Mars in water signs gives freckles), indicates a scar from a cut or burn on the head, ankles or feet, and brings out a reddish glint to the hair.

hope this helps.
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 15

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does help. If what you're saying is that it is bad practice to cross-reference a primary significator with a secondary significator. In this chart, worst case scenario: I was leaning towards the Sun representing "another young man" as opposed to the querent's loins interested in or with L7. I'd even hazard that the Sun is a turned L3 matter which is a no-no according to some horary practitioners, but feedback has seemed to confirm house playing a greater role over general significance lately.

thanks again
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Becca



Joined: 17 Mar 2014
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip wrote:
IMO/experience, assigning at most five planets to the querent/quesited has made me feel sketchy.

I agree. In my opinion, we should not complicate this. Assigning at most five planets to the querent or quesited does. Stick to primary significators.

Quote:
I am not looking for a delineation. The querent did contact the quesited, and the quesited responded to the querent.

Is the querent a woman or a man? What is the nature of the quesited's relationship with the querent? two 'friends' who meet up and have a brief conversation with each other at the local cinema from time to time? lovers?

Quote:
But, I do have a general question in response to the following statement:
Quote:
Lilly tells us to consider the Sun as a general significator for the man and Venus as a general significator for the woman.

The Sun is conjunct Merc Rx in the 7th (Regiomontanus) in this chart.

As Mercury is combust, I wonder about any challenges presented before this matter was resolve, considering that the query pertains to the querent's attempt to reach out to someone who they have a carnal interest in? Confused

I think of combustion as a type of 'prohibition' in this case because it causes difficulty with expression in regards to communication. Some problems could be that; the circumstances imposed by one person restricts the other's ability to communicate effectively and clearly, one is overwhelmed and distracted by stimuli, whispers and gossip of other around them, or one isn't receptive to how the other communicates. But, on the other hand, an advantage of combustion is that it supports the act of slipping away to somewhere private and cosy to talk as opposed to a general context.
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 15

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is the querent a woman or a man?


Male

Quote:
What is the nature of the quesited's relationship with the querent?


Estranged friends

Quote:
two 'friends' who meet up and have a brief conversation with each other at the local cinema from time to time? lovers


A male confidante. Lovers who could've been, but circumstances prevented it. Querent explained it as cold feet. When she was hot, he was not. When he was ready, she was unsteady about the relationship.

Quote:
...the querent's attempt to reach out to someone who they have a carnal interest in?


if you take the Sun as co-sig of the querent, yes. To extend it further, his "manliness" is in her house. Frawley/Lilly would suggest that she is self-absorbed (L7 in H7) and the querent's "parts" are interested in her (co-sig in H7).

IMO, the question, "Should I (querent) contact, will she (quesited) respond? The answer was, "Yes" because L7 applied to the turned L3. According to the querent, she contacted via text. It's not, "Should I (querent) contact, will there be a booty call?"

Quote:
...combustion as a type of 'prohibition' in this case because it causes difficulty with expression in regards to communication...


The querent wasn't in a position to overwhelm her with his "machismo", or to privately talk to her. It's the reason that I brought up another "young man" (querent unable to confirm) in the thread: "Her going back to the Sun". L1 is in aversion to L7.

L1 in H8 was worried about talking to the quesited (L8 in H3). L1 applies to Venus. My questions: Did he apply to her as "Woman"? Did he apply to a turned L4/L12 matter which is her undoing? Or, "Is she going to hide that she's in trouble?"

It's the reason that I asked whether Lilly's contentions on co-significators in relationships is supported. I read historical texts when I can, but I'm not as invested as other contributors who focus on decoding these resources.
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Becca



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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip wrote:
Quote:
Is the querent a woman or a man?
Male
Is the querent you, Chip? or were you asking on behalf of this person?

Quote:
What is the nature of the quesited's relationship with the querent?

Estranged friends
So would you say that its a 1stH/11thH relationship? and not a 1stH/7thH one?

Quote:
...two 'friends' who meet up and have a brief conversation with each other at the local cinema from time to time? lovers?

A male confidante. Lovers who could've been, but circumstances prevented it. Querent explained it as cold feet. When she was hot, he was not. When he was ready, she was unsteady about the relationship.
Okay. Based on how you describe the dynamic between them as it is now, I would think of it as a 1stH/11thH relationship.

Quote:
...the querent's attempt to reach out to someone who they have a carnal interest in?

If you take the Sun as co-sig of the querent, yes. To extend it further, his "manliness" is in her house. Frawley/Lilly would suggest that she is self-absorbed (L7 in H7) and the querent's "parts" are interested in her (co-sig in H7).
But were you using the 7thH to derive a significator for her to begin with?
Quote:
IMO, the question, "Should I (querent) contact, will she (quesited) respond? The answer was, "Yes" because L7 applied to the turned L3. According to the querent, she contacted via text. It's not, "Should I (querent) contact, will there be a booty call?"
The 7thH Lord applying to the turned 3rdH Lord doesn't quite make sense to me. It sounds as though the quesited contacts herself!

Quote:
...combustion as a type of 'prohibition' in this case because it causes difficulty with expression in regards to communication...

The querent wasn't in a position to overwhelm her with his "machismo", or to privately talk to her. It's the reason that I brought up another "young man" (querent unable to confirm) in the thread: "Her going back to the Sun". L1 is in aversion to L7.
If the querent sent the quesited a text, then he was in a position of being able to privately talk to her without thought of another man on the scene. I don't understand; how could he have been or felt not in a position to when he did?

Quote:
L1 in H8 was worried about talking to the quesited (L8 in H3).
When you say that the 8thH Lord is in the 3rdH, whose 8thH Lord is it? and is the 8thH Lord in her 3rdH or in his?
Quote:
L1 applies to Venus. My questions: Did he apply to her as "Woman"

If the 1stH Lord(him) applied to Venus, a carnal significator for her, then I imagine that he did have such a partial interest in her.
Quote:
Did he apply to a turned L4/L12 matter which is her undoing? Or, "Is she going to hide that she's in trouble?"
If Venus rules her 4thH/12thH, I guess. It depends on why and how you think that this is her 'undoing' and why you suspect that she is in 'trouble'. Venus usually isn't a planet that screams trouble unless its undignified or afflicted.

Quote:
It's the reason that I asked whether Lilly's contentions on co-significators in relationships is supported. I read historical texts when I can, but I'm not as invested as other contributors who focus on decoding these resources.
It would be soo much easier to unravel all of this if you were to post the chart. Even if just to look at it after everything has happened.
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is the querent you, Chip? or were you asking on behalf of this person?


No, a person who I know well. I used "I" for ease of use. I also use the second person, "you", for clarity. My comments are not directed to anyone in particular, but a general audience. Third person constucts are notably more difficult to follow.

Quote:
So would you say that its a 1stH/11thH relationship?


All relationship are 7th house. Doesn't matter if you are interested in friend, co-worker, bank teller, etc.

Quote:
The 7thH Lord applying to the turned 3rdH Lord doesn't quite make sense to me. It sounds as though the quesited contacts herself!


What I expected to see is L1 applying to L7. In a perfect world, supported by reception. Given that they sent each other msgs, the question becomes, "Is this similar to sending a letter which is an L3 matter?"

BTW, this can mean she didn't know what to say or kept something to herself.

Quote:
whose 8th Lord is it?


His co-sig is the Moon. It's L8 in his H3. Why is the querent anxious/preoccupied with contacting her (or withholding contact)? Normally, I would look to the planet with which it last separated, but it's VOC (nothing will come of contacting her). So, you look to which planet L1 leaves and connects for evidence of what's causing this state.

Quote:
how you think that this is her 'undoing'


Venus is in her turned 12th. Her L12 in H12 is self-sabotage. Her L4 in H12 is problematic property (or unapproving dad). Her L11 is a bad female friend. As co-sig, Venus is her female libido. Her Venus is a negative even though it's essentially dignified. And he is applying to it.

Also, do you see Saturn Rx sitting on his 12th cusp? It shows his stumbling block. He doesn't have the financial where-with-all for the relationship (as supported by feedback). Not only that, he's hiding that communication, L3, from the quesited.

But, that being said, as a rule, you're not supposed to read into the other houses. You're supposed to stick with L7. For example, if Mars had been conjunct Merc, it indicates her sleeping with another young man. If Saturn had been conjunct Merc, it indicates her sleeping with another old man based on general signification.

So, the topic remains, why is the Sun interpreted as his manhood? Is it consistent with former horary practitioners.

Quote:
It would be soo much easier to unravel all of this if you were to post the chart


There's a link in my 1st post.

The chart seems accurate when I DON'T use co-significators, and makes little sense when I DO use them. This behaviour is not even limited to this one chart. When did co-sigs become common practice? Why are their use taught extensively?
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BlueMoon



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip,

This chart would be an excellent chart to learn from if we knew some more of the background 'story'.

What is the 'question behind the question'?

I know that the querent asked 'should I contact x?'.
But what does the querent want from this contact?
Is the querent hoping to pursued X to go on a date?
Is the querent hoping to rekindle a relationship?
Is the querent hoping to have sex with x?
Is the querent hoping to exchange recipe idea for a dinner party?

In addition to knowing what the querent wants from X, what is their prior history?

I believe once we get a clearer idea of the querent and quesited's relationship, and what the querent truly wants/desires, then we can see the Sun's role in this horary.

On another note, I have successfully used the ruler of house 11 for 'friend'. However, I would only use the ruler of house 11 if it was very clear from the querent and his/her question that the quesited is indeed a 'friend'.
(Not a potential lover, a past lover, etc.) I feel most comfortable when the actual question has the word 'friend' in the question: "Will my friend pay back the money he has borrowed".

BM
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip wrote:

So, the topic remains, why is the Sun interpreted as his manhood? Is it consistent with former horary practitioners.


Hi Chip

I thought Wca offered a quite comprehensive answer to your question. Are you asking if this 'rule' predates Lilly? In which case yes, I can provide examples later if you wish.
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Becca



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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip wrote:
All relationship are 7th house. Doesn't matter if you are interested in friend, co-worker, bank teller, etc.

When I say "relationship", I don't mean a relationship relationship. I mean how we relate to people in general. There are different types of relationships. The way that we relate to and interact with a friend and the relationship that we have with them is different from that of with a co-worker or a bank teller. Questions about relating aren't limited to a romantic context. When we add in thought of carnal significators, the Sun and Venus, then it is.

The 'primary' significators in this chart are Jupiter and Mercury if we ascertain that the querent and the quesited have a mutual 1stH/7thH relationship with each other. Most 1stH/7thH questions are with the pursuit of or the unravelling of an exisiting relationship in mind. If either was the approach to this query, the Sun and Venus do have part relevance as pieces of the puzzle. Relevance which I think lowers communication being a priority and the main objective being clouded.

Echoing some of BlueMoon's thoughts,
We usually assume that the main objective is stated in the question, but is it really? is the question worded in a way which pertains to the querent's main objective with the quesited? just communication? as in, after they contact each other, then what? What could a following question be? because sometimes the following question can be the very question that we should have asked to begin with.

I had this problem a few days ago myself. I wanted to know about a situation concerning a person going to the hospital for a 'consultation' for surgery. I wanted to get an idea as to when this person would return home but I couldn't settle on how to word an exact question about it because I had several other questions about the same situation. So I casted and looked at a chart with some of the general gist in mind and no particular question. I didn't really need a question because the I was just looking at the chart myself with no intent to seek out other opinions. The person's significator was Jupiter, and of all places, in the 8thH! while the Moon's next aspect was to Saturn in the 12thH which describes it being an older person. While I did get some vague answers, I still had a lot of unanswered questions up in the air.

Quote:
The chart seems accurate when I DON'T use co-significators, and makes little sense when I DO use them. This behaviour is not even limited to this one chart. When did co-sigs become common practice? Why are their use taught extensively?

Who says that you have to use them? you don't have to use them. Only use them if you want to. The Sun, Venus, this, that; they just add extra details. Its much less complicated when we extract every meaning that we can from the querent and questied's significators while ignoring everything else until we no longer can.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip wrote:
The chart seems accurate when I DON'T use co-significators, and makes little sense when I DO use them. This behaviour is not even limited to this one chart. When did co-sigs become common practice? Why are their use taught extensively?

Unless I miss something I really cannot understand your statement, Chip.

Only when you use the co-significators, you get the right answer 'Yes' to the question of a possible contact, i.e. the sextile of the essentially strong Jupiter (his significator) applied to by the essentially strong Venus (her co-signficator).
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes knowing too much from one perspective (the querent's) clouds the delineation, but since you took the time to respond to the thread, I'll answer the questions as best I can.

Quote:
What is the 'question behind the question'?


To clarify the question:

If I send correspondence via an electronic medium, will she respond to me? Yes or No?

The auxillary to the question:

It's a bit open-ended. What will come of the communication? Am I wasting my time? Am I setting myself up for disappointment, again? I had the answer by looking at the placement of Merc, and VOC moon.

    Yes, if she responds, nothing will change. She's not budging.
    No, if she does not respond, she's with someone else.
    Yes, if she responds, it will be guarded, or withheld.
    etc.


I'll reiterate that with this post I was not looking for chart interpretation per se, rather for examples of charts from astrologers other than Lilly or his practitioners who do not use Sun/Venus as co-sigs for male/female physical attraction in a relationship question.

Quote:
I know that the querent asked 'should I contact x?'. But what does the querent want from this contact?


    For the quesited to reply
    Open dialogue
    Eliciting time to talk
    Determining whether she'll invest energy into conversation
    Gauging her state of affairs


Quote:
Is the querent hoping to pursued X to go on a date?


This is irrelevant pursuant to the question; the querent knows he can make this happen under her terms

Quote:
Is the querent hoping to rekindle a relationship?


Yes, but a different relationship where he doesn't feel like a second fiddle. First contact after a cooling off period had occurred. This is more like a follow-up.

Quote:
Is the querent hoping to have sex with x?


Yes, at the risk of sounding facetious, with any young pairing where there is/was mutual physical attraction, an emotional bond, and opportunities, it's a foregone conclusion. Given I quoted Frawley in the 1st post, he's a proponent of good sense. If it's explicitly asked, "If I call/write a letter/send an email, will we have sex?" or "Is there a possibility of physical intimacy?", I might look at Sun/Venus for this "extra detail"; otherwise, this is a pre-ordained possibility, and implicit

Prior to casting the chart, he knew he could close her out. Is she worth the hassle, or implications, or aftermath? Slightly different horary question.

Quote:
Is the querent hoping to exchange recipe idea for a dinner party?


Lol... H3 matter, right?... we don't know what he's hoping. No, planet in the 11th (Regiomantus). Mars in the 11th via whole sign might shed light. If Jupiter was in the 11th, I would've asked after taking a stab at it. As I said in my penultimate post, with Jupiter in the 8th, separating from Saturn Rx and applying to Venus, he's having issues with trepidation as opposed to how she views him. This is confirmed.

Quote:
In addition to knowing what the querent wants from X, what is their prior history?


As previously stated, confidante; moreover, an emotional crutch, and financial benefactor when she hit hard times. One-sided him to her.

A personal caveat: for me to look at the 11th, the question becomes, "Will my friend respond to my electronic communication?" or "Can we talk and be friends?" In further regards to the 11th, my experience - it fits more as a turned 5th house matter: the querent/quesited wants to go to a night club, restaurant, hotel aka "house of pleasure". Show me a good time. In other circumstances, 2nd from 10th: she's interested in your income. Which leads to you're fit to take care of him/her. Radical or turned 2nd house matters say more about a relationship than friendship. Call me a cynic, but there are few altruists among potential or existing friends.
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Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Only when you use the co-significators, you get the right answer 'Yes' to the question of a possible contact, i.e. the sextile of the essentially strong Jupiter (his significator) applied to by the essentially strong Venus (her co-signficator).


Your statement contradicts WCA:

Quote:
it is also critical to note that in these Sun/Venus references, the relationship under scrutiny is exclusively the one between Venus and the Sun. no other planet is considered.


I tend to agree with WCA's point. So, the chart needs to show the communication in another way. But, what the chart appears to be showing is the mindset of the querent. It looks like it's answering the question, "Why do you NOT want to contact her? What are you afraid of?"
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Chip



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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
I thought Wca offered a quite comprehensive answer to your question. Are you asking if this 'rule' predates Lilly? In which case yes, I can provide examples later if you wish.


Hi Paul,

Thanks for responding. If you could point me to one or two sources, it would be welcome. It's more of an inquiry concerning Lord of House vs. General Significator.

I'm looking for a relationship chart where the Sun or Venus represent a house matter rather than secondary signification. Or the Sun is "another man" and Venus is "another woman".

I've a Bonatti translation by Rob Hand of horary questions where planets (non-primary significators) constantly signify a house or turned house, but the charts reference H2, H4, H10 matters. In these charts, he tends to shy away from general significators. I suspect there must be similar H7 charts.
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BlueMoon



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Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip,

Thank you for your responses to my questions regarding the 'question behind the question."

I understand that you are wondering about the use of Sun and Venus in relationship questions, and whether they can effectively be used as co significators.

1. Do the Sun and Venus accurately reveal additional information about the relationship between the querent and quesited that the ruler of the 1st and Moon (for querent) and 7th (for quesited) do not? (Paying particular attention to reception.)

2. Can the Sun and Venus be used in the same way as the ruler of the 1st and 7th (and moon) in terms of applying to other significators to determine the outcome of the horary?

If we were to ask John Frawley, he would say 'yes'. He teaches this method in his horary course. He uses the Sun and Venus to represent the more sexual/primal forces of Man and Woman.

In your specific horary, if judged using the techniques of John Frawley, we see that there is a sexual/primal attraction between querent and quesited. The Moon is in the exaltation sign of Venus, and Venus is in the exaltation sign of the Moon. Furthermore, the Sun is in the sign of Mercury. Plenty of primal attraction here. From both querent and quesited to each other. Since the Sun, primal force of querent, is in the sign of Mercury (quesited), JF might say that the querent is more attracted to quesited than she is to him.

Since Mercury, quesited, will conjunct Sun (sexual/primal significator of querent), JF might say that thru his texting/contact with quesited, they may come together again (and perhaps have sex).

However, when looking at the non sexual/primal significators, there does not seem to be enough reception to move this relationship forward. Nor is there application between the main significators (NOT using Sun and Venus).

Although the querent and quesited may come together again, there is no future for this relationship.

What if we take out the use of Sun and Venus as significators of the sex/primal force of querent and quesited?

If we do that - what can we say about the conjunction of Mercury (quesited) and the Sun?
Can the Sun represent a man (in general)?
Or does the Sun only represent the 9th house (turned 3rd)?
(Of course, if the 'Man' is a professor by profession, then the symbolism would be quite fitting.)

This chart can be a good example of whether Sun/Venus represent the sexual/primal force of querent and quesited by finding out if
a) the querent agrees that there is a strong attraction between querent and quested (and perhaps he feels a bit more attracted to her than visa versa)
b) if indeed they did come together after he texted her, and if perhaps they had sex.

If the querent does not think they have a mutual physical attraction, and if they did not come together -
Then it would be helpful to find out if the quesited had come together with another man.

If querent and quesited did not come together, and quesited did not meet another man, then perhaps the Sun in this horary is 'the Sun' and Mercury combust is the end of the relationship.

BM
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