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The Nodes

1 by epurdue
I've read a few traditional descriptions of the nodes, and all say the north node has the nature of Jupiter & Venus and increase, and the South node has the nature of Saturn and Mars and decrease. The increasing nature will increase the benefit when conjunct the benefics, and decrease the harm from malefics. The south node does the opposite with decrease.

Are the nodes mostly dealt with in conjunctions? What about if they are alone in a house or in some other aspect? I definitely want to stay away from the modern karmic and reincarnation aspects of the nodes.

2 by Tom
Hi Mithra,

In traditional astrology the nodes are usually only considered with conjunctions and maybe a square. A planet square the nodes is considerd "at the bendings," and something is about to change. At least I think that is the delineation. It is a rare event. You see it in horaries now and again.

John Frawley says the south node is where you get hurt. You might want to look at this when the node is not conjunct or square any planets. Other than that, the delineations you list are pretty standard in traditional astrology and work at least as well as the karma/reincarnation delineations of the moderns.

Tom

4 by epurdue
SaturnReturn wrote:Where you get hurt physically, emotionally? Or is it akin to the nature of the sign and house placement?[/u]
Basically what I meant is that the south node lessens a benefic effect of a benefic, and a malefic effect of a malefic.

5 by Tom
I think Saturn Return was referring to what I wrote about "where you get hurt."
Where you get hurt physically, emotionally? Or is it akin to the nature of the sign and house placement?
Both/either. For example Janis Joplin has the SN on her ASC: she hurt herself. She had emotional problems with depression (Lord ASC, Saturn Rx, trine and dispositing MercuryRx in 12), and she hurt herself, killed herself actually with drugs.

In her case, as I'm sure in all cases, more than the SN is involved in such a tragedy, and wasted life. Everyone with the SN on or near the ASC isn't a drug addict fated to die from an overdose. Still the node showed where the problems would manifest, in the body. The other factors in the chart showed the rest.

Tom

Janis Joplin
January 19, 1943
9:45 AM CWT + 5 hours
Port Arthur, Texas, USA

6 by zuli
Tom wrote:For example Janis Joplin has the SN on her ASC: she hurt herself.
By the way, the most fortunate planets in this chart are Jupiter and Moon, both in the fortunate 5th house, rulers of 5th and 10th.
Tom wrote:She had emotional problems with depression (Lord ASC, Saturn Rx, trine and dispositing MercuryRx in 12), and she hurt herself, killed herself actually with drugs.
Sun and Mercury really feel bad in 12th. But I do not think Saturn is bad in this chart. It is in a friendly sign. The mutual reception with Mercury is strong, because of the trine. Also Saturn is powerful because of the conjunction with an angle...

But is SN so hurtful on the Asc? :? It may be. :neutral:

7 by fish
a tragedy, and wasted life
It is at this point that, of course, our attention is drawn to the difference between the science and the art of astrology.

There is no stretch of either my vocabulary nor my imagination that can cause me consider the life of janis joplin as either a waste or a tragedy.

8 by Tom
There is no stretch of either my vocabulary nor my imagination that can cause me consider the life of janis joplin as either a waste or a tragedy.
I regretted the use of the word "waste" as soon as I hit the submit key, but did not have time to change things. I was referring mostly to her early death. That was a tragedy and the fact that she brought it about herself at a time when her artistry was beginning to be recognized for what it is made it a waste. Unfortunately, the way I wrote it makes it sound like I considered her whole life that way, and I don't.

As for her life being a tragedy, in a lot ways it was. She was overweight, acne scared, and unpopular as a teenager. The "granny look" so popular in the 60s was invented by her in an attempt to get attention from her peers. Negative attention is better than no attention. At college, in an act of cruelty only an adolescent can find funny, she was voted "ugliest man on campus." She is a human being and this kind of ridicule and abuse heaped on her for nothing that she did is tragic. That she accidentally killed herself was a waste. She had a lot more going for her than any of the idiots who tormented her and provided her with the demons who possessed her.

As for the chart one of the more interesting conditions is the "negative mutual reception" between Saturn and Jupiter. Saturn in in the detriment of Jupiter and Jupiter is in the detriment of Saturn. Jupiter is in exaltation in Cancer and exaltation is often associated with excess. Saturn at the bottom of the chart ruling the ASC is her depression. She really had "Dem Ol Cosmic Blues. In the mutual reception Saturn feeds the excess of Jupiter and in the 5th the excess manifests in 5th house ways - pursuit of pleasure. The excess in turn feeds the depression. In her case the cycle continued until death.

Tom

9 by fish
your points are, as always, well made: very, very well made

if you are an artist, the greatness and height of the art is only as great as the greatness and height of the price: in fact if you are anything at all the greatness and height is only ever as great and high as the price

no demons = no art

we all have have some kinds of demons to fight, but only a very few manage to squeeze out even a tiny drop of art

i'll return to my corner

*doffs hat*

10 by Tom
if you are an artist, the greatness and height of the art is only as great as the greatness and height of the price: in fact if you are anything at all the greatness and height is only ever as great and high as the price
I have at several times in my life thought about this. It is probably true. Would Janis Joplin have reached the same level of artistic quality she achieved, if she did not have a difficult life? Probably not. The same could be said of Gauguin and other artists. Perhaps not all need to suffer in order to be creative, but it does seem as though the suffering brings out the art in a way that ease and comfort do not. It just seems so unfair.

Tom
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