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If you're using the horary, it does not matter whether L1 is in 7th or vice versa unless the opponent's significator is very close (1 degree, maybe 2 degrees at most) to the cusp (inside or outside). The same goes to the Part of Fortune. If PoF is in the 1st it doesn't mean anything by itself1. If, for example, L1 is in a good aspect (within 6?) with PoF in the 1st it is a yo-mama for the ASC team. Or it would be a bad thing if the aspect would be SQU or OPP. And, of course, it gets more and more tricky when other planets kick in.

If, for example, PoF is in the 1st and in opposition with L7 in the 7th. Is L7 unlucky being opposed to PoF or the ASC team is unlucky because their 'luck' is afflicted by L7? etc etc

I disagree with JF - PoF works in the sports horaries. It has proved many times over. Of course, it is not as straightforward as being 'lucky' or not, yet PoF definitely has an impact if it comes into play.
I'm talking about the PoF Day/Night formula, not the Day formula used in the event charts (according to JF).

Edit: The horaries work most of the time, yet the main difficulty is not being able to decode the chart but being objective. Especially if 'your' team is involved. If you're placing an actual bet, you must be very careful not to overlook the 'small' things in the chart. One must focus on the chart, not money or your team's victory etc. I've won the craziest bets and lost miserably failing to see the obvious testimonies in the chart. Sometimes the no-way-in-hell-the-other-team-gonna-win attitude is not your friend. Have a good day people. :'

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Seiko wrote:As for the CRO-TUR match I'm going with the underdogs here. I think TUR will draw/win.
Would be interested to know why you're going for Turkey.

Any more predictions anyone? :)

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well, first off Pluto is close to the ASC (1?44'). It is almost 2?, yet I think 1?44' still fits into the 'one degree or so' category. Sun, dispositor of the L4, is applying to the DSC (1?42') and L10 is combust (even being in the next sign). Not much to write home about but maybe it is enough for a draw.

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Ficina wrote:Croatia v Turkey, 20.45, Vienna, Asc 28,06 Sag

Antiscion Venus (L10) conj Desc from 6th (1 deg).
Pluto on the ascendant noted. I'm more interested in the antision.
I'd settle for a Croatia win, just to keep the antision watch alive and well.

(Why do I feel I've just given Croatia and antision my usual 'kiss of death' :-? )

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The Venus is combust. If the antiscion is some kind of mirror image, it is weak, too. And, besides, it would be 2+ TUR and 1+ TUR or if we drop the Sun 1-1. I don't know. It will be much easier to grasp after the match is over. Then we'll know for sure :lol:

Edit: I'm still on the TUR side. The testimonies are faint, though, so CRO's win wouldn't be a surprise to me.

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Seiko wrote:The Venus is combust.
JF says in the case: 'Combustion must be kept much tighter than usual. We can say that any significator within 2 degrees of the Sun is harmed'. Do you disagree with him?

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JF says in the case: 'Combustion must be kept much tighter than usual. We can say that any significator within 2 degrees of the Sun is harmed'. Do you disagree with him?
Yes and no. Does anyone REALLY know that the planet 2? away from the Sun is out of harm's way? With all due respect to JF, I don't think he looked at thousand charts involving combust planets to determine the distance. There are always so many what-ifs. I'm not saying I'm right but there has to be a reason why it is 2? instead of the 'original' 8?30'.

Lilly used event charts the old-fashioned way. Who is right? I'm not the one who gets to decide. I borrowed some ideas from JF - again, all due respect - but I'm sticking mostly to Lilly.

PS There is an arguable opinion that the planet must be in the same sign to be combust.

PS: Whether Venus is combust or not is of least importance in this chart (she is not L1 or L7). But the question itself is very important.

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Seiko wrote:
JF says in the case: 'Combustion must be kept much tighter than usual. We can say that any significator within 2 degrees of the Sun is harmed'. Do you disagree with him?
Yes and no. Does anyone REALLY know that the planet 2? away from the Sun is out of harm's way? With all due respect to JF, I don't think he looked at thousand charts involving combust planets to determine the distance. There are always so many what-ifs. I'm not saying I'm right but there has to be a reason why it is 2? instead of the 'original' 8?30'.
JF's reasoning is simple in the case. Difference between game?s charts can be so minimal during Euro-2008, that everything has to be narrowed. Otherwise we could have the combusted Venus during almost all the tournament with too many doomed games because of that (when Venus is involved being L1, L10, L7 or L4).

JF describes his method as "a level below even horary" or "bottom of the astrological food-chain" )

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I understand the reasoning of narrowing down but why 2?? Why not 3 or 4? Besides, JF admits himself that all the narrowing down does not help if there are many games played relatively close to each other in time and space.
So, if the games are very close, maybe we should use 1?? etc etc

Look, all I'm saying we have to be open to new possibilities (I'm not saying the old standards are not valid). For example, JF says in his book not to use the outer planets in the sports horaries, yet many times it has proved that Uranus cannot be ignored. In fact, in the CRO-TUR horary Uranus is the significator of the Turkey's victory. Uranus separates from the L7 (I was rooting for CRO so DSC is TUR) but the Moon translates the light from L7 to Uranus. And this is not a coincidence. I am practicing sports horaries for 4-5 years now and Uranus has performed many times. Also, the Part of Fortune is important even though JF says to forget the Arabian parts.

As astrologers, amateur or professional, we must search for new methods and solutions to provide consistent results. Otherwise, it would be a terrible waste of time.

Even though it looks like I'm training to write speeches here :lala I'm not. I'll try to keep it short and sweet in the future. Peace. :)

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When the JF's method does not work, all we can do is to keep an open mind 8)
He did warn that his method works best approaching the final game.

Still, I think it is interesting to trace his method from "Sports Astrology" till the end before thinking about inventing something new.
Seiko wrote:I understand the reasoning of narrowing down but why 2?? Why not 3 or 4?
Perhaps he determined this empirically? All we can do is to rely on our experience. Medieval arabian astrologers were not soccer fans unfortunately :?
For example, JF says in his book not to use the outer planets in the sports horaries, yet many times it has proved that Uranus cannot be ignored.
He mentioned the influence of outer planets in his "Sports Astrology" (page 90, Uranus & Pluto included).
In fact, in the CRO-TUR horary Uranus is the significator of the Turkey's victory. Uranus separates from the L7 (I was rooting for CRO so DSC is TUR) but the Moon translates the light from L7 to Uranus. And this is not a coincidence.
I have a feeling that we are talking about different charts, because I can't get how Uranus can be the significator of anything. Perhaps mine is wrong (28Sag05' rising, Jupiter L1 and Mercury L7).

The only thing I can see in my chart that could indicate Turkey's success (Dsc for Turkey as the undergogs) is POF antiscon in far conjunction with L7 (almost 4 degrees). Also, L1 is in opposition to POF, but this aspect is not applying.

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Igor said:
When the JF's method does not work, all we can do is to keep an open mind 8) He did warn that his method works best approaching the final game.
In that case the final game should be simple. But my argument would have to be that there is nothing lower-class about any of the games at this level. The final is not necessarily easier to predict. A prediction where the favourite wins is not half as impressive as a prediction where the underdogs succeed and steal the victory.

Regarding the discussion on combustion, I would follow the rules of Lilly regarding orb, but any planet withing 2 degrees of the conjunction or the opposition of the Sun (except when that planet is cazimi) is in a state of total destruction. Two degrees is the orb that Lilly applies when the situation is either obvious or inevitable.
http://www.astronor.com

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Andrew J. Bevan wrote:In that case the final game should be simple. But my argument would have to be that there is nothing lower-class about any of the games at this level.
I agree. More than that. This final won't be easy for JF method at all, because Cancer will be setting and JF admits: "I am rarely confident in judgement of one of these charts when Cancer either rises or sets" (he gives to Moon a special role, trying not to mix it with teams significators).