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Which day to start market?

 
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:38 am    Post subject: Which day to start market? Reply with quote

I'm stumped with an Election and would be grateful for some help.

My partner and I have been invited to join a new Farmers' Market that is going to operate on Sundays. I have gone through every Sunday between 18th May (earliest possible date for us) and end June (latest date).

I've narrowed the field down to two dates: 18 May (ASC 2 Gem) and 1 Jun (ASC 14 Gem), 7:30am, Perth, W. Australia, 31 S 57, 115 E 51.

Since trading commences at 7:30 sharp the ASC can't be tweaked.

My problem is this: The May chart is on a waxing moon which I understand is quite desirable in starting up a venture, but said moon happens to be in Scorpio.

Since this is not a Horary the moon might not be a co-significator but it rules the 2nd house (Regiomontanus) of our finances. ASC ruler Mercury is strong in 1st, the customers' money is singified by Saturn (LCool, which receives Mercury, so the customers' money would come to us.

The June chart also has the ASC ruler Merc in the 1st but it has now gone retrograde. This time L2 - the moon - is in the 11th in Taurus, applying to a trine Saturn (LCool, so much better, but now she is in a waning phase.

In both charts the customers themselves are signified by a retrograde Jupiter in the 8th and there's not much that can be done about that unless we postpone our entry into the market and we don't really want to do that.

So what it boils down to is my question of whether to give a waxing lunar phase priority over a solid moon ruling the business sector, and much as we both love our operation and what it stands for, our immediate concern is about financial viability; this is borne out of necessity, not acquisitiveness.

Cheers and thanks in advance


Edith
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Malcolm Ramsay



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Lincoln, England

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presumably this will be the start of a long involvement, so wouldn't the moment of commitment be more significant than the start of the first one you go to?
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edith,
Later I wanna to give a look, but I would need a birth chart.
Yuzuru
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuzuru and Malcolm

Thank you for replying so swiftly.

I can see where you both are coming from but I'm still inclined to treat this as an election rather than a horary.

We are already part of an organic farmers' market and had been arguing back and forth between us whether we should join another market to augment our income.

Since this is a major logistic headache for us we slowly went from a 'no way Jose' to a 'might just be able to pull it off' when we were contacted by yet another market, the one we are now considering.

The whole decision making process has been slowly simmering and marinading for a few weeks and even now we have not made the absolutely final decision. No commitment has yet been made to the conveners so there is no way by any stretch of the imagination that I could pinpoint an exact moment.

I do have the exact time for when they sent us their invitation email but cannot remember the time when I opened it (the astrologer understanding the question).

A few days after the email I phoned them and registered an interest and asked a them some questions to help us in the decision making process but I stressed to them that we hadn't yet made up our mind at that time.

I have not done a horary of whether we should join this market or not since we are now well on the way to knowing the answer to that one anyway.

So the next logical step seemed to me to erect an electional chart. The question has well and truly moved from 'should we?' to 'when should we?' or in other words, what is the best time within a reasonable framework.

As I unerstand elections are predominantly done to derive an optimal timing for new ventures such as businesses, important trips, partnerships etc.

Although ours is not strictly a new business it is a nevertheless a new venture within an existing establishment, requiring - as Malcolm has already stated - a considerable long term commitment.

Having stated all of the above I am always happy to learn and keep an open mind, especially since I'm not hugely experienced in either horary or electional astrology.

Yuzuru, when you say you need a birth chart, were you thinking of mine or my partner's or of when this new market thing became a topic in our lives? If it is the latter then I'd be very hard pressed to find a defining moment.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An election can only be done knowing the birth chart (or at least using an horary chart)
I am assuming that it would be your birth chart, as you are one of the main players and you want it to be a good day for your specifically.
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Malcolm Ramsay



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Lincoln, England

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallo Edith

I was assuming you weren't committed yet; I meant to suggest that it would be more meaningful to elect the moment you make the commitment rather than the first market you actually go to - which may perhaps give you more freedom (but still leaves you needing to pick a start date).

My feeling is that, most of the time, the planets support you better if you don't try to second-guess them. I think there is something in electional astrology that is akin to horary's radicality; there are some times when we are in a kind of dialogue with the gods, when the decisions we make, and the intent with which we make them, affect the deeper currents of the world. But the impression I get is that, once the critical moment is past, the gods turn their backs on us until the next encounter, setting something in motion which will automatically help us (or hinder us if that suits their own goals) - but they expect us, in the meantime, to pursue our goals without regard to them.

If, ignoring the planets, you would be ready to start by the first date, then I think delaying would introduce a new dynamic and alter the way that the energies would manifest. And similarly if you had to make a special effort to be ready in time for 'a propitious moment' I would expect that to introduce a distortion of some kind.

As for how it will work out and when to make the commitment; I would be inclined to look at the chart for the business - either for when it was incorporated if you started it yourselves or for when you took it over - and see what transits or progressions have been building over the last few weeks. I usually aim to make decisions/commitments as near the peak of a transit as possible, but it doesn't always happen that way - and that may not be the orthodox way.

I was going to start this by saying that, like you, I also don't have much experience of horary and electional astrology; but then I thought perhaps that is what I have been doing. Certainly the focus of my study of astrology, for several years, has been tuning in to various planetary cycles in my life, but I'd never thought of it before as 'electional astrology' (I certainly have no experience of horary however).

I'm mostly more comfortable with principles than specifics, but if you post a chart for the business (or failing that your birth-chart) I'd be interested to have a look. It might also be helpful to know roughly when the issue first came up and when this market contacted you.

Malcolm
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some very good insights there, Malcolm. My philosophical approach to this matter is that we have an excellent system available that gives us a look into an optimum time for an undertaking. It is there for us to use and I want to learn a lot more about it.

Having said that, I've seen people try to open a business or gig or whatever at some ungodly and downright stupid hour, just to catch that magic and elusive moment. I always look at a what I consider to be a reasonable time window and then stick to it. In other words I will not get up at 2:49 am to post a letter or e-mail and I don't want to wait for several months with the market just to replicate my ASC either.

The framework for our market entry is more or less given. If we try to catch the 18th May we will have to have to shake our tails, prontissimo, but it would not be a stupendously acrobatic effort. First of June would give us a bit more time. There is another date that I quite like astrologically, the 29th June, but to me that already goes into to the tail trying to wag the dog territory. My hunch-o-meter tells me that the 1st of June makes more sense and in that context I see exactly where you're coming from and furthermore I fully agree.

However, if the May market had all these brilliant astrological formations and the June one was full of mangled and cadent retrograde planets I would happily go that extra effort to catch the earlier train, so to speak.

The other thing is that I haven't even started to consider natal charts. When I do a horary I usually do it as a stand alone, unless something really hits me in the eye. That is probably remiss of me but therein lies the next problem.

I can think of several important events that could be used as THE relevant chart to use as an anchor to this Election:

1. My nativity (I'm the marketing manager in our micro business of two and I'm the one asking the question)

2. My partner's nativity (He is the one who has really started the ball rolling with this particular venture - but I'm still the one who has now taken over and having the main involvement with setting it all up)

3. The day he took over the farm from his parents

4. The exact time I left my homeland (the beginning of my involvement; I came to spend some extended time with him)

5. The exact time I arrived here

6. The day I arrived on the farm to stay

7. The day and time we got married and thus became a new business entity within the Australian Taxation Law.

8. The exact time of the phone call we received that changed our lives, and in that sense to me this is the most important moment because that was the defining moment that got the ball rolling with our direct selling our product rather than using the open auction system.

9. When we started our first ad campaign

10. When the first order came in.

11. When we committed to go to the first market

12. The commencement of our first market

So you can see that one can easily get lost. The above list may sound as if I'd gone facetious on you but every one of these moments was at least potentially a very important one, a little bit not unlike a nation's nativity where you can get many different charts, with many astrologers disagreeing.

I suppose in order to keep our feet on the carpet I would assume the most important one/s would be the individual's natal chart/s and in my mind that first phone call, but the above minefield of choices is one of the reasons why the KISS principle is so attractive and why I prefer a stand alone election or horary for a business query.

So I'm more than happy to put up any of these charts as well as the ones for when the issue first came up and the first contact from the organisers, and I do appreciate both your very valuable input and efforts, Malcolm and Yuzuru.

Like I've said before, I'm willing to listen, think and learn.
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Malcolm Ramsay



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Lincoln, England

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallo Edith

I'm not sure how much you can tell from a stand-alone chart, but what jumps out at me looking at the May 18th chart are the Moon/Mars and Saturn/Asc squares. I dare say my own Moon/Mars and Saturn/Asc squares have done wonderful things for my soul development, but I'm glad they are only 3 and 4 degrees, rather than under 1 degree as they are in that chart.

To my mind the only significant negative differences in the June 1st chart (looking at it as an inception of a business activity) are Mercury being retrograde, the Mercury/Uranus square changing from 3.5 degrees (applying) to under 2 degrees (separating) and Pluto 2+ degrees square to MC. But you lose those close Moon/Mars and Saturn/Asc squares, you lose 3.5 degree squares from Neptune to Sun and Venus, you lose a yod from Moon/Pluto to the ascendant and the Venus/Sun and Sun/Asc conjunctions are both closer. And I'd guess that Uranus would be easier in the 9th than the 10th and Mars might be more useful firmly in the 2nd than on the cusp of the 3rd (though Pluto might be better on the cusp of the 8th than firmly in the 7th).

Personally I've never really understood why Mercury retrograde has such a bad reputation (but then I regard "may you live in interesting times" as a blessing) so for me there would be no contest - especially if the later date is going to make it easier for you. For a one-off I might see the balsamic moon as undesirable, but I think of it as the time when a new seed is ready for sowing, so I'd say it's just right for what you're doing.

However, if there are horrible aspects to the natal charts ..... but if you've been thinking it over for weeks there probably aren't.

I think either of the nativities would do as a base chart, for looking at transits, but I think I'd go for the time your partner took over the farm - less likely to have other issues overlapping. I wouldn't use any of the other times as a base, but I would definitely want to know the time of that phone call (particularly when you describe it as changing your lives) - I would hope to identify from that the key points in the base chart that the issue is activating. I would also want to look at the other times related to the issue to see what transits were happening then, and hopefully see what the primary cycles are for this issue - but I wouldn't expect the times related to your becoming involved to be useful.

I suspect you've already decided on that date, but if you want to post some of those times anyway, I'd be interested to see what I can make of it.

Malcolm
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malcolm, I've been out of action for a few days. Will get back to you in a couple of days or so and reply properly.
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is now becoming more and more unlikely that we'll go ahead with the 18th May, mainly due to time constraints and logistic problems but if you are still interested in the exercise I will post some of the charts that may be relevant. They are all for Perth, W. Australia, see exact data in earlier post.

My partner's parents physically retired form the farm on January 12th, 1977 midday, around 12:30 (that's when according to the diary the removal van left the property).

But the signing over of the paperwork that dissolved his business partnership with his parents didn't happen until 1st July of that year, sometime during working hours, quite likely mid to late morning.

The phone call we received that was so important to us happened on 17th June 02 at 7:13am.

The organisers of this market emailed us on 14th April 08 at 11:09am (that's the date of the mail arriving here; can't remember when I opened it).

Malcolm and Yuzuru, I'll email our birth data to you privately and thank you again for taking the trouble to have a look.

Malcolm, your commets about the balsamic moon bring me back to my original question of whether a waning moon for the start of a new business would override the benefits gained by an exalted moon over one that is in fall. Needless to say, we'd have to look at the whole chart and Malcolm has pointed out a comprehensive comparison between the two. BTW I migrated to Australia on a progressed Balsamic phase and our wedding chart has a Balsamic Moon plus quite a few debilitated planets but here we are, still happily plodding away after some 29 years........

I sort of agree with you on the retrograde Mercury but the strong essential and accidental dignity would probably mitigate any major deleterious effects.
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Malcolm Ramsay



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Lincoln, England

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Edith

Thanks for letting me know that you had ruled out the earlier date - I'd assumed that you would, otherwise I'd have replied earlier. In any case I don't see anything in the transits that make one date look significantly better than the other - but I think it would be worth your while looking at the transits to the business chart.

I took the July date as the 'natal' date for the business on the grounds that: a) it was the definitive end of the transfer, and the moment when it became irrevocable; b) it was an essentially symbolic moment which was wholly concerned with the business, whereas the parents moving was presumably primarily to do with their lives; and c) that date resonated with your own chart more than the January date. (The fact that the key point, for this issue, is within 3 minutes of my Moon confirmed that that was the right one for me to look at at least.)

Looking at the transits at the time of that important phone call, it seems clear that the key point is natal Jupiter: Saturn is half a degree from conjunction (with solar-arc progressed Venus within 1 degree), supported by a semi-sextile from Jupiter, so this is something that will develop over a long period. To quote Marc Robertson in 'Transit of Saturn' (which I initially found almost unreadable but am glad I persevered with) on Saturn conjunct Jupiter:

Quote:
The usual manifestation is some kind of opportunity that comes in the form of a minor advance that will have to be worked on for some time to make it outstanding. Yet the basis of something extremely lasting and firm in its makeup is there if you can perceive it ..... this proves, later, to be one of the most solid opportunities life ever offered them. They start it here and it reaches climax at the opposition.

(This is looking at it from the point of view of the business - from your personal point of view it might have been more immediately obvious that it was important and I'll guess that you personally have felt more engaged with the business since then than you were before.)

Jumping forward to the e-mail on 14th April about this new market, Jupiter is inconjunct its natal position, opposite the point it was at the time of that phone call. I'm going to guess that there was a seed of some kind planted at the Jupiter return (in May 01) which perhaps led to the phone call, and that the possibility of a second market first came up during the Jupiter opposition last year.

The first few years of direct marketing were presumably quite a struggle and you probably didn't start to feel on top of it until the Saturn sextile from September 06 to June 07. Jupiter turned retrograde opposite natal Jupiter in April 07, during Saturn's retrograde sextile (heading back towards the struggle zone), so I'll guess that was the "no way" time. But by the time Jupiter completed its opposition in November the Saturn stuff was probably going quite smoothly, and the second market perhaps began to look possible; but Saturn turned retrograde, so there was no confidence to jump into it - it turned direct on May 2nd a few days before you posted your question.

One reason I think you should be aware of the transits to the business chart is the fact that the Saturn square to that point will coincide with the Saturn/Uranus opposition in November - if you are dancing to that tune it will perhaps be helpful to know when the challenging bits are coming (and when they might be over).

The other reason is to do with Neptune turning retrograde on the 26th May - within 10 minutes of square to natal Venus in that chart. I'm not sure what role Venus plays in this issue, but ... it's a business chart (and it's possibly in the 8th house). It wasn't significantly aspected on the day of the phone call, but a couple of weeks later Mars conjoined transiting Jupiter in sextile to it (which perhaps coincided with the next step?) and the recent Mars/Jupiter opposition, which was building at the time of the e-mail, was trine to it. I don't know what effect the Neptune square will be having - as I said previously I'm more comfortable with principles than with specifics - but I'd be inclined to be a bit more cautious than I would otherwise be.

So now you can tell me that the timing was actually quite different.

Malcolm
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite a lot of food for thought there. I must admit that I rarely use cycles or non-ptolemaic aspects in transits but I will definitely have a look at it all.

I'm once more going to be out of action until at least Monday but will return with some feedback as soon as I can.
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've been to check out the new market last Sunday and we really, really like it. Good feel, natural outdoor atmosphere (disused nursery) and terrific community support. Much nicer than the other market we considered, although that one was located in a very cashed up suburb - after all both our suns are in detriment so I dare say we'd do much better in an alternative setting. So we told the co-ordinator we'd give it a try on June 1st and if it works out then every 3rd Sunday of the month.

Malcolm, your preference for the July 77 chart makes a lot of sense. I possibly see the key issue with the Jupiter square Nodes which was active both at the inception of the business name as well as when that important phone call occurred.

The square activated again 2 days before the possibility of a second market was raised (the 'no way' reaction on the first touch of the Jupiter square Node) and it will be active again a fortnight after our first trial, as it retrogrades over said square (going back from the initial reaction), almost to the day on our first regular, non-trial trading day (3rd Sun in Jun) and we'll get the final hit on 21st Nov this year. That should coincide with the Saturn/Uranus opposition and Neptune going direct. October/November is for us traditionally the screaming nightmare time where all the seasonal work has to be done by yesterday or else plus socially it gets busy as well.

My Moon is about to hit its balsamic phase and I have noticed that in quite a few of my cycles and even transits some activity or change literally occurs at the last crack of the whip, virtually on the last day. This resonates well with my strong proclivity to procrastinate. A third quarter lunar phase is - at least according to Bernadette Brady and probaby quite a few others - an ideal time to start something new within an existing framework. It almost sounds tailor made.

As far as the timeline is concerned and what you said, yes, the first few years have been a struggle and to be honest we still don't feel on top of it. Every time we reach some kind of a goal another business necessity rears its ugly head, so more money gets spent before the previous outlay is recouped. That may have something to do with the natal business chart's Jupiter being in detriment.

On the bright side, every year we have made some headway in overall takings, an average increase of over 25% in gross takings. But a 25% increase of a little is still not an awful lot however we are definitely moving in the right direction.

If there is general interest I can post a few more dates and how things unfolded but I don't want to clog up the forum, especially now that the decision has been made and the urgency of the election has run its course.

But Malcolm, you are definitely on the track and I thank you once again for taking all the time and effort.
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Malcolm Ramsay



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Lincoln, England

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback Edith. I tend to overlook the Nodes; my Sun is conjunct the North Node and I've never tried to separate the effects - it's probably time I learnt a bit more about them.

Good luck with the new market.

Malcolm
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