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Born at dusk

 
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Pisces_girl



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Europe

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Born at dusk Reply with quote

When the native is born at dusk, and the Sun is below the horizon by 2 degrees, is it considered a night chart?

For illustration:
Sun 8º 21' Pisces
Descendant 10º 24' Pisces

I would consider the Sun as being in the 7th for delineation, but then it seems like a contradiction to say that the chart is nocturnal.

The implications for me are numerous: placement of Pars Fortuna, firdaria, planets in or out of sect, etc.

As an aside, would this Sun be considered angular or cadent?
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 660
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically power is shifting in the chart towards the Moon so even though there is still light (with atmospheric refraction bringing the Sun's apparent position even closer to the descendant). You can think of it as a lame duck Sun with the Moon taking up political power.

Valens says that when the Moon is below the horizon in a night chart that one should use the daytime formula. Also if fortune should happen to fall amiss (8th or 12th for example) with the lord in an impropitious place then the formula switches again. See my delineation of Obama's chart:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/election2012.html

It is important to not just accept the lots of fortune and spirit as always static. Valens says that in some nativities they are more prone to mix such as an athlete whose actions (spirit) involves making or doing things with ones hands (fortune), etc...

Schmidt has said that the concept of angularity is really a composite concept, explaining that the word "kentron" has two primary meanings: one is that such a house is a place where activity revolves around such as a shopping mall where business is conducted; he other meaning of "kentron" is to be a prod or a goad to action. Sometimes the angles are called "pivots" or "pivot points" which has both of these meanings of the word "kentron" in the sense that one is a center of activity and the other has a sharp point which is a cause for motivation. In many charts the goad (the MC degree for example) falls outside of the main center of activity and that is to be expected. The shopping mall is not always active, as would be the case at 3 am and sometimes the activity shifts towards the taverns (a place of leisure). So he says that a planet is highly motivated if near the degree where the Ascendant, MC, Descendant and IC, but it might not be in the usual activity center. Also one can be in an agora (open market) area without much business happening.

The Sun is close to the goad (cattle prod) and if in the 7th whole sign is also in an angular whole sign house. The question is where is the Moon? If above the horizon, it is fairly unambiguous that you should use the nocturnal fortune formula unless fortune falls achrematistikos in which case the nocturnal calculation for spirit would become fortune if it falls better. When neither improves placement that much and the trigon lords of the sect light fall disconnected from the helm (ascendant) or in candent places, then one is fairly certain that the chart is base and the native prone to have a difficult life.
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Pisces_girl



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Europe

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoidosoft, thank you for your detailed answer.

zoidsoft wrote:
The Sun is close to the goad (cattle prod) and if in the 7th whole sign is also in an angular whole sign house. The question is where is the Moon? If above the horizon, it is fairly unambiguous that you should use the nocturnal fortune formula unless fortune falls achrematistikos in which case the nocturnal calculation for spirit would become fortune if it falls better.


The Moon is above the horizon (in the 11th) so it seems clear that the nativity is nocturnal and fortuna is in the 9th house.

I read the link you provided. You talk about the acquisitive place being the 11th from fortuna, as indicative of how one makes ones money and what level of financial success one has.

According to this, 7th house/Pisces would be the acquisitive place. What would then be the implication of this Sun in the place of acquisition?
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pisces_girl wrote:
I read the link you provided. You talk about the acquisitive place being the 11th from fortuna, as indicative of how one makes ones money and what level of financial success one has.

According to this, 7th house/Pisces would be the acquisitive place. What would then be the implication of this Sun in the place of acquisition?


Depends upon the rest of the chart, but potentially when the Sun becomes active as a time lord or Pisces is activated in zodiacal releasing, one potentially comes into acquisition. However, one should look at the nativity to see what planets witness the place and from where to see how financially successful one is. Riley translates this as the place of "accomplishment" which seems to be a good translation as well. Not all acquisitions are liquid assets; they might be skills or talents one has.
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
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Location: San Luis Obispo, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Curt. Like Pisces_girl, I find your details fascinating.

You have quoted Valens extensively, and while I have respect for all the Hellenistic astrological writers, I share your trust in Valens. We know that Ptolemy, for example, seems to have been a theoretician rather than a "working-class" astrologer. For others figures like Dorotheus, Firmicus and Hephaistio, we don't have nearly as much information as we would like.

But it is commonly known that Valens was indeed a "working-class astrologer." He often prefaces his statements with phrases like, "I wandered throughout Egypt in search of knowledge until someone taught me this technique, and I have found it to work beautifully." Or he will say, "I have found this lot to be very mystical and important." The fact that he speaks from his own personal experience as a working astrologer makes me want to trust him, so I thank Curt for these detailed observations.

If I were you, Pisces_girl, I would trust Valens as well.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pisces_Girl wrote:
Quote:
When the native is born at dusk, and the Sun is below the horizon by 2 degrees, is it considered a night chart?


I haven’t had much time for the forum lately so I only just saw your post.

This topic has been extensively discussed on Skyscript over the last few years. Here are two threads that generated lively discussion on the topic:


http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3688&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4404

I think Deborah Houlding's point about the planetary hours is a powerful one.

Mark
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Pisces_girl



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Europe

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Mark, I will check the threads.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1330

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pisces-girl,
without having checked the linked threads I should like to quote

Manilius, Astronomica, III. Book, Verses 178 - 185,

where he simply claims day-nativities to have the Sun higher than the transverse cardinals, night-nativities below them.
Dawn or dusk do not seem to be any problem for him.

Johannes
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Pisces_girl



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 25
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:


Manilius, Astronomica, III. Book, Verses 178 - 185,

where he simply claims day-nativities to have the Sun higher than the transverse cardinals, night-nativities below them.


Johannes,

excuse my ignorance, but I never heard the term "transverse cardinals" before.
What does it mean?

Pisces
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 445
Location: USA

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pisces,

"transverse cardinals" seems like a rather tortuous way of saying the pivots or angles of the chart. In Latin cardio is a good translation of the Greek kentron, which both carry the meaning of pivot and are used to describe the angles.

Gabe
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pisces_girl wrote:
excuse my ignorance, but I never heard the term "transverse cardinals" before.
What does it mean?

The Ascendant-Descendant axis, also called "threshold".
The angles include MC and IC, but the quote given by Johannes Susato doesn't refer to them.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pisces_girl wrote:
Johannes,

excuse my ignorance, but I never heard the term "transverse cardinals" before.
What does it mean?

Pisces

The original text is as follows:

"Cum tibi, nascentis percepto tempore, forma
constiterit caeli, stellis ad signa locatis,
transverso Phoebus si cardine celsior ibit,
qui tenet exortum vel qui demergit in undas,

per tempus licet affirmes natum esse diei.
At, si subiectis senis fulgebit in astris
inferior dextra laevaque tenentibus orbem
cardinibus, noctis fuerit per tempora natus."


My attempt to translate the underlined part of the text:

"When Phoebus [the Sun] will go higher than the transverse cardinal
which holds the beginning or wich sinks in the waves, . . . "
and:
". . . lower than [beneath] those cardinals, which - to the right and to the left - hold the circle of the world."

This is, as Tzadde rightly says, the axis AC-DC, and as Gabe says, 'a rather tortuous way' to describe it.
But I think it is also a very poetical way to describe and teach Astrology two thousand years before our times.

Johannes
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Pisces_girl



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Europe

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:

The original text is as follows:

"Cum tibi, nascentis percepto tempore, forma
constiterit caeli, stellis ad signa locatis,
transverso Phoebus si cardine celsior ibit,
qui tenet exortum vel qui demergit in undas,

per tempus licet affirmes natum esse diei.
At, si subiectis senis fulgebit in astris
inferior dextra laevaque tenentibus orbem
cardinibus, noctis fuerit per tempora natus."


My attempt to translate the underlined part of the text:

"When Phoebus [the Sun] will go higher than the transverse cardinal
which holds the beginning or wich sinks in the waves, . . . "
and:
". . . lower than [beneath] those cardinals, which - to the right and to the left - hold the circle of the world."

This is, as Tzadde rightly says, the axis AC-DC, and as Gabe says, 'a rather tortuous way' to describe it.
But I think it is also a very poetical way to describe and teach Astrology two thousand years before our times.

Johannes


It is poetical indeed.
Thank you for taking the time to translate and explain it.

Pisces
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