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Hellenistic Astrology 2: Primary Chart Rulers
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Angela



Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 10

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Hellenistic Astrology 2: Primary Chart Rulers Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
Hello again,

[My own twist: The cadent luminary can still be predominator if it is in his/her own house of Joy i.e. sun in 9th or moon in 3rd. Sun in 9th is in his own house of Joy and also in his own sun-god house. Moon in 3rd is in her own house of Joy and also in her own moon-goddess house]

The predominator is the planet that represents the life of the native. The trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator tell use the thirds life of the native i.e. the first trigon lord = first part of life, second trigon lord = second part of life and third trigon lord = third part of life.

Once the predominator has been determined, we can then proceed to the oikodespotes of the natal chart.


Hi Astrojin, I was wondering about your twist to the rule, like if this is a consistent rule, or if there are other factors to consider where it depends?
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Angela,

So far it seems to work for me. The detrmination of the predominator depends on the whole sign house positions of the luminaries as I have outlined. I just observed that if a luminary is cadent yet in his/her house of Joy - he'she can still be predominator.
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Angela



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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Astrojin, thanks a lot. Does their ability to be predominator change their other abilities as well...like, does it tie into anything related to being able to conduct business like when figuring out the Kurios...or is that something else altogether?
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again Angela,

At the moment I use the twist in general which means that when sun is in the 9th or moon in the 3rd, they are effective and are able to conduct its business though they may not be conspicuous enough compared to when they are in angular whole sign houses. Try using this concept to Bush's chart and you will see what I mean. He has luminary in sect (sun) in the 12th (cadent) and out of sect luminary (moon) in the 3rd whole sign house (also cadent). Without the twist, we will automatically go to ascendant (which is Leo) ruled by sun who (as it happens, also cadent) - hence non-effective person! If you use the twist, the out of sect luminary (moon) can be used as predominator because she is in her house of Joy and her oikodespotes would be Venus(Moon is in Libra) conjunct Pluto (planet of power - if you want to use Pluto). Venus the oikodespotes is in the 11th from the moon (very good according to Hellenistic principles) as well as located in the royal sign Leo...
For me I still use the outer planets but only in conjunction and I do not use them as rulers.
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Angela



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Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Astrojin, thanks again for sharing your thoughts, and also for this example too Smile
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin, this is my first reply on your posts, and first I want to say to you big THANK YOU for sharing all this valuable information with us here.
I'm always reading your posts with a pen and paper in my hands.

I also want to thank to Curtis Manwaring for his wonderful explanation on the visibility of the planets and choosing the Kurios of the chart.

I have a few questions to astrojin though; and these are related to the Nautical Metaphor.

Quote:
The first and second Trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator = the winds that carry the ship to its destiny. The third trigon (triplicity) lord is the oars that move the ship.


Why should the third trigon lord be the one who is the mover of the ship?
How is this one distinguished from the other two and why?

Quote:
Oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of the chart = ship owner = the one who sets the agenda or destiny for the native under the restriction set by the bound ruler of the pre-dominator.


Why is the bound ruler of the Predominator, the one who sets any "restrictions"?

Keep the good work!

Best,
Ile
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ile,

Ile wrote:

astrojin wrote:
The first and second Trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator = the winds that carry the ship to its destiny. The third trigon (triplicity) lord is the oars that move the ship.


Why should the third trigon lord be the one who is the mover of the ship?
How is this one distinguished from the other two and why?


While Schmidt has also tossed around the idea that the third triplicity ruler might be the current under the ship of the nativity, and the other two triplicity rulers the "winds", the idea as I understand it is this: The diurnal & nocturnal lords switch over from one to the other at a certain point in the life of the native(probably the ascensional times associated with the signs they are in), while the third does not, yet remains a constant "background" influence in the life, which is why it being the "current" makes a better fit than the "oarsmen", as they could be whipped into a fast speed, as it were.

astrojin wrote:
Oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of the chart = ship owner = the one who sets the agenda or destiny for the native under the restriction set by the bound ruler of the pre-dominator.


Why is the bound ruler of the Predominator, the one who sets any "restrictions"?
[/quote]

Better to say the Kurios is the Ship Owner, while the Domicile Master is more the Captain of the nativity. The confines are given the role of restricting the behavior of a given planet in them, making them act in accordance to the nature of that particular confine lord. For example, say Saturn in Leo in the terms of Jupiter: while Saturn is disposed to behave in his manner, but is troubled by being in an alien sign and obligated to take what subjects the Sun offers him, Saturn now must also keep to Jupiter's idea of what he should be doing, according to its nature and chart disposition. This would effectively soften the malefic as Jupiter's nature is naturally benefic.
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gabe,

Thank you for your eloquent explanation.
It is great to have learned and experienced astrologers here from whom I can learn this beautiful art. I follow your posts too on this forum and "steal" from your knowledge and practice!

Keep the good work!
Best,
Ile
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR wrote:
Better to say the Kurios is the Ship Owner, while the Domicile Master is more the Captain of the nativity.


Hi Gabe. I think it is the other way around. I think Kurios is captain and domicile master is ship owner.
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GR



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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
GR wrote:
Better to say the Kurios is the Ship Owner, while the Domicile Master is more the Captain of the nativity.


Hi Gabe. I think it is the other way around. I think Kurios is captain and domicile master is ship owner.


Really? I had it the other way in my head.
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have decided to post a comment by Dracon from the thread 'Financial Significators in the Natal Chart'. The comments seem more appropriate to follow up on this thread. I have therefore posted my reply here:

Dracon wrote:
Quote:
Hi Mark, greetings to all

Book 1 of Hephaistios of Thebes -”Apotelesmatics”, PH edition, contain a footnote, at chapter 13: ”The prefix sun in Greek has to basic meanings: „with” and „completely”. Accordingly, there are two different senses of sunoikodespotes, one when a planet is co-ruler, and another when is actually in its own house, at witch time it is completely the master of its house. Consequently there is no way to translate this passage clearly into English without rewriting it. We simply have to understand that „co-ruler” stands for two completely different concepts.” Robert Schmidt

There is a theory wich tell us that all the meanings of the planets are derive either from Sun or Moon (Moon signifies conception of children, Saturn-childless, estranged child; Mars-abortion etc). The lights won't serve, won't obey and won't deal with individual pursuits. From this perspective, the lights are not fit to set the agenda for the native, to be Oikodespotes. Firmicus susteined a similar theory by not according honor of Oikodespotes to the lights. You see, the lights are first option to be the Epikratetor of the chart, to be the ship itself, the native's whole life. We can't mix-up the ship with the owner or the captian of ship.

There are solid arguments that make me think that Oikodespotes is the bound lord of the Epikratetor and Sunoikodespotes is the domicile lord of the Epikratetor. The function of Sunoikodespotes is to oversight. In my opinion this notion implies: managmenet, control, direction and surveillance. Maybe we can discuss this in another topic, I really need to acces, listen and understand others point of view.


I have replied as follows:

Quote:
Hi Dracon

Thanks for your post. A few questions:

Dracon wrote:
The lights won't serve, won't obey and won't deal with individual pursuits. From this perspective, the lights are not fit to set the agenda for the native, to be Oikodespotes.


Mark wrote:
Ok but what do we actually do delineation wise if the light is in its own domicile? Do we look at the bound lord? I had a chart recently, with Sun in Leo and Moon in Cancer. It was a night chart but the Moon was in the 12th. The Sun was in the 2nd WS house. I went with the Sun itself as the indicator of primary motivation for the native. It seemed to work well. Possibly heresy though according to the approach you outline above towards the lights. However, the chart had Virgo rising and Mercury in Leo so that sign was doubly emphasized. Practically, when a light is in its own domicile as predominator what is the way to go regarding the Oikodespotes?

Dracon wrote:
Firmicus susteined a similar theory by not according honor of Oikodespotes to the lights. You see, the lights are first option to be the Epikratetor of the chart, to be the ship itself, the native's whole life. We can't mix-up the ship with the owner or the captian of ship.

I think a bit translation is required for the non-hellenistically inclined!

Epikratetor=The Predominator-Usually sect light but could be ASC
Oikodespotes =Domicile Master of the Sect light-Dispositor of the light.
Kurios=Master of the nativity.

Dracon wrote:
There are solid arguments that make me think that Oikodespotes is the bound lord of the Epikratetor and Sunoikodespotes is the domicile lord of the Epikratetor. The function of Sunoikodespotes is to oversight. In my opinion this notion implies: managmenet, control, direction and surveillance. Maybe we can discuss this in another topic, I really need to access, listen and understand others point of view.

Mark wrote:
I would be very interested in hearing the sound arguments you refer to. In particular why you think the Oikodespotes is the bound lord rather than the domicile lord. I had been under the impression that The bound (term) ruler of the predominator is the oversight i.e. the one who sets the restriction over the domicile master (oikodespotes) of the chart.

Mark

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Marius Cojoc



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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

msg deleted

Last edited by Marius Cojoc on Sat May 03, 2014 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Dracon,

Your post raises some very interesting points. I should just state my memory completely failed me on the chart I mentioned. The rising sign was Leo not Virgo! I think I incorrectly recalled it this way as Mercury was on the ASC. The Sun falls in the 1st WS house below the horizon. It was as in the 1st dynamical sector by Porphyry houses. The Moon is in the 12th WS house and dynamical sector.

Here is the data:

ASC: 5'09 Leo
Sun: 24'35 Leo
Moon: 3'58 Cancer
Mercury: 6'05 Leo
Venus: 22'33 Leo
Mars: 6'18 Cancer
Jupiter: 21'01 Leo
Saturn: 14'20 Virgo
Lot of Fortune: 25'46 Virgo
Lot of Spirit: 14'32 Gemini

The client was female.

Sorry for the confusion caused.

I took the Sun to be the predominator. I was unclear what to do for a domicile Master. I know see the Sun is in the bound of Mercury. Mercury lies on the rising degree and in its house of joy. It also lies in the bound of Jupiter like the ASC degree. I took Mercury as the Kurios. This fits the occupation of the client well which involves advice work including legal advocacy.

Mark
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

To Ile,

Thanx for the comments and I see that your questions have been addressed by the experts here!

All the best in your study!
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracon wrote:
Quote:
Hylegical places are always first option. We search the house which conduct most dynamical and favorable business for the native. Observe that Vettius Valens used a dynamical house system to judge this topic. Perhaps, in this inquiry, dynamical places win against the good or bad places.


Very good point. Its something I have been pondering myself lately too. How can we determine if the predominator is 'fit for business' without determining its distance from the angles? As the length of life was calculated using quadrant/dynamical porphry houses there seems a good case for giving serious consideration to quadrant houses in calculating the predominator. Yet reading Astrojins notes Robert Schmidt seems to be focusing on whole sign houses as the key determinant. From what I can see the process of identifying the natal predominator and the apheta for length of life calculation are identical.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:54 am; edited 3 times in total
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