CA vol I: ch.19 - aspects
Part VI of Deborah Houlding's annotated edition of Lilly's Christian Astrology, covering pages 105-114 |
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Angela
Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Hellenistic Astrology 2: Primary Chart Rulers |
 |
|
| astrojin wrote: | Hello again,
[My own twist: The cadent luminary can still be predominator if it is in his/her own house of Joy i.e. sun in 9th or moon in 3rd. Sun in 9th is in his own house of Joy and also in his own sun-god house. Moon in 3rd is in her own house of Joy and also in her own moon-goddess house]
The predominator is the planet that represents the life of the native. The trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator tell use the thirds life of the native i.e. the first trigon lord = first part of life, second trigon lord = second part of life and third trigon lord = third part of life.
Once the predominator has been determined, we can then proceed to the oikodespotes of the natal chart. |
Hi Astrojin, I was wondering about your twist to the rule, like if this is a consistent rule, or if there are other factors to consider where it depends? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
astrojin
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Angela,
So far it seems to work for me. The detrmination of the predominator depends on the whole sign house positions of the luminaries as I have outlined. I just observed that if a luminary is cadent yet in his/her house of Joy - he'she can still be predominator. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Angela
Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hi Astrojin, thanks a lot. Does their ability to be predominator change their other abilities as well...like, does it tie into anything related to being able to conduct business like when figuring out the Kurios...or is that something else altogether? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
astrojin
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello again Angela,
At the moment I use the twist in general which means that when sun is in the 9th or moon in the 3rd, they are effective and are able to conduct its business though they may not be conspicuous enough compared to when they are in angular whole sign houses. Try using this concept to Bush's chart and you will see what I mean. He has luminary in sect (sun) in the 12th (cadent) and out of sect luminary (moon) in the 3rd whole sign house (also cadent). Without the twist, we will automatically go to ascendant (which is Leo) ruled by sun who (as it happens, also cadent) - hence non-effective person! If you use the twist, the out of sect luminary (moon) can be used as predominator because she is in her house of Joy and her oikodespotes would be Venus(Moon is in Libra) conjunct Pluto (planet of power - if you want to use Pluto). Venus the oikodespotes is in the 11th from the moon (very good according to Hellenistic principles) as well as located in the royal sign Leo...
For me I still use the outer planets but only in conjunction and I do not use them as rulers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Angela
Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Astrojin, thanks again for sharing your thoughts, and also for this example too  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ile
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Astrojin, this is my first reply on your posts, and first I want to say to you big THANK YOU for sharing all this valuable information with us here.
I'm always reading your posts with a pen and paper in my hands.
I also want to thank to Curtis Manwaring for his wonderful explanation on the visibility of the planets and choosing the Kurios of the chart.
I have a few questions to astrojin though; and these are related to the Nautical Metaphor.
| Quote: | The first and second Trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator = the winds that carry the ship to its destiny. The third trigon (triplicity) lord is the oars that move the ship.
|
Why should the third trigon lord be the one who is the mover of the ship?
How is this one distinguished from the other two and why?
| Quote: | | Oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of the chart = ship owner = the one who sets the agenda or destiny for the native under the restriction set by the bound ruler of the pre-dominator. |
Why is the bound ruler of the Predominator, the one who sets any "restrictions"?
Keep the good work!
Best,
Ile
_________________
My personal blog:
http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/
-------
"Iunge testimonia & iudica ex superabundanti" ~ Cardano |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GR
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 429
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Ile,
| Ile wrote: |
| astrojin wrote: | The first and second Trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator = the winds that carry the ship to its destiny. The third trigon (triplicity) lord is the oars that move the ship.
|
Why should the third trigon lord be the one who is the mover of the ship?
How is this one distinguished from the other two and why?
|
While Schmidt has also tossed around the idea that the third triplicity ruler might be the current under the ship of the nativity, and the other two triplicity rulers the "winds", the idea as I understand it is this: The diurnal & nocturnal lords switch over from one to the other at a certain point in the life of the native(probably the ascensional times associated with the signs they are in), while the third does not, yet remains a constant "background" influence in the life, which is why it being the "current" makes a better fit than the "oarsmen", as they could be whipped into a fast speed, as it were.
| astrojin wrote: | | Oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of the chart = ship owner = the one who sets the agenda or destiny for the native under the restriction set by the bound ruler of the pre-dominator. |
Why is the bound ruler of the Predominator, the one who sets any "restrictions"?
[/quote]
Better to say the Kurios is the Ship Owner, while the Domicile Master is more the Captain of the nativity. The confines are given the role of restricting the behavior of a given planet in them, making them act in accordance to the nature of that particular confine lord. For example, say Saturn in Leo in the terms of Jupiter: while Saturn is disposed to behave in his manner, but is troubled by being in an alien sign and obligated to take what subjects the Sun offers him, Saturn now must also keep to Jupiter's idea of what he should be doing, according to its nature and chart disposition. This would effectively soften the malefic as Jupiter's nature is naturally benefic.
_________________
Gabe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ile
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Gabe,
Thank you for your eloquent explanation.
It is great to have learned and experienced astrologers here from whom I can learn this beautiful art. I follow your posts too on this forum and "steal" from your knowledge and practice!
Keep the good work!
Best,
Ile
_________________
My personal blog:
http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/
-------
"Iunge testimonia & iudica ex superabundanti" ~ Cardano |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
zoidsoft
Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 434
Location: Las Vegas, NV
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GR wrote: | | Better to say the Kurios is the Ship Owner, while the Domicile Master is more the Captain of the nativity. |
Hi Gabe. I think it is the other way around. I think Kurios is captain and domicile master is ship owner.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GR
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 429
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| zoidsoft wrote: | | GR wrote: | | Better to say the Kurios is the Ship Owner, while the Domicile Master is more the Captain of the nativity. |
Hi Gabe. I think it is the other way around. I think Kurios is captain and domicile master is ship owner. |
Really? I had it the other way in my head.
_________________
Gabe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Moderator
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 3482
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have decided to post a comment by Dracon from the thread 'Financial Significators in the Natal Chart'. The comments seem more appropriate to follow up on this thread. I have therefore posted my reply here:
Dracon wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Mark, greetings to all
Book 1 of Hephaistios of Thebes -”Apotelesmatics”, PH edition, contain a footnote, at chapter 13: ”The prefix sun in Greek has to basic meanings: „with” and „completely”. Accordingly, there are two different senses of sunoikodespotes, one when a planet is co-ruler, and another when is actually in its own house, at witch time it is completely the master of its house. Consequently there is no way to translate this passage clearly into English without rewriting it. We simply have to understand that „co-ruler” stands for two completely different concepts.” Robert Schmidt
There is a theory wich tell us that all the meanings of the planets are derive either from Sun or Moon (Moon signifies conception of children, Saturn-childless, estranged child; Mars-abortion etc). The lights won't serve, won't obey and won't deal with individual pursuits. From this perspective, the lights are not fit to set the agenda for the native, to be Oikodespotes. Firmicus susteined a similar theory by not according honor of Oikodespotes to the lights. You see, the lights are first option to be the Epikratetor of the chart, to be the ship itself, the native's whole life. We can't mix-up the ship with the owner or the captian of ship.
There are solid arguments that make me think that Oikodespotes is the bound lord of the Epikratetor and Sunoikodespotes is the domicile lord of the Epikratetor. The function of Sunoikodespotes is to oversight. In my opinion this notion implies: managmenet, control, direction and surveillance. Maybe we can discuss this in another topic, I really need to acces, listen and understand others point of view.
|
I have replied as follows:
| Quote: | Hi Dracon
Thanks for your post. A few questions:
Dracon wrote:
The lights won't serve, won't obey and won't deal with individual pursuits. From this perspective, the lights are not fit to set the agenda for the native, to be Oikodespotes.
Mark wrote:
Ok but what do we actually do delineation wise if the light is in its own domicile? Do we look at the bound lord? I had a chart recently, with Sun in Leo and Moon in Cancer. It was a night chart but the Moon was in the 12th. The Sun was in the 2nd WS house. I went with the Sun itself as the indicator of primary motivation for the native. It seemed to work well. Possibly heresy though according to the approach you outline above towards the lights. However, the chart had Virgo rising and Mercury in Leo so that sign was doubly emphasized. Practically, when a light is in its own domicile as predominator what is the way to go regarding the Oikodespotes?
Dracon wrote:
Firmicus susteined a similar theory by not according honor of Oikodespotes to the lights. You see, the lights are first option to be the Epikratetor of the chart, to be the ship itself, the native's whole life. We can't mix-up the ship with the owner or the captian of ship.
I think a bit translation is required for the non-hellenistically inclined!
Epikratetor=The Predominator-Usually sect light but could be ASC
Oikodespotes =Domicile Master of the Sect light-Dispositor of the light.
Kurios=Master of the nativity.
Dracon wrote:
There are solid arguments that make me think that Oikodespotes is the bound lord of the Epikratetor and Sunoikodespotes is the domicile lord of the Epikratetor. The function of Sunoikodespotes is to oversight. In my opinion this notion implies: managmenet, control, direction and surveillance. Maybe we can discuss this in another topic, I really need to access, listen and understand others point of view.
Mark wrote:
I would be very interested in hearing the sound arguments you refer to. In particular why you think the Oikodespotes is the bound lord rather than the domicile lord. I had been under the impression that The bound (term) ruler of the predominator is the oversight i.e. the one who sets the restriction over the domicile master (oikodespotes) of the chart.
Mark |
_________________
“In nature's infinite book of secrecy a little I can read.” Antony and Cleopatra i.2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Marius Cojoc
Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Tîrgu Mures, Ro
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Mark, greetings to all
The ancient traditon handed down different schemas to identify the Epikratetor. What all have in common?
The lights are always first option. Sun in a day chart, Moon in the night chart. You may think that sect status is a priority but this issue is very tricky. In fact, Vettius Valens stated ''I say that the Sun also predominates by night and the Moon by day if they should happen to be figured opportunely.” Book 3, Anthology, PH, page 27.
Perhaps, secondary candidates are pure logical. We search the Ascendant because if the ship is damaged we would like to get fastest we can to the shore and without a proper working helm we are doomed. In such case, the only thing which can save the ship is our Fortune, our luck.
Hylegical places are always first option. We search the house which conduct most dynamical and favorable business for the native. Observe that Vettius Valens used a dynamical house system to judge this topic. Perhaps, in this inquiry, dynamical places win against the good or bad places.
Planets in dignity always fulfill what they promises.The dignity determines the possibility for manifestation but can't decide alone the outcome of the issue. We can discuss here about the basic functionality of domicile lord, exaltation lord and bound lord.
Now, your case is very interesting. According to Schmidt the twelve house speaks about „that which bears off or carries away from the native” and the second house speaks about ''what bears or yields in the interest of the native”. The twelfth house may work against the native's life and her dynamic is not recommended. If Sun is placed better, the Moon is all but certainl disqualified.
Sun in Leo, second house. Masculine zoidia describe events that arise and take effect, and fire-like zoidia describe events that must occur, they are necessarily and are forced to appear. Leo is a fourfooted solid zoidion and suggest us support and a steady completion of events. I find these things to be of much help in a life and death issue. So, I would choose Sun as Epikratetor in the detriment of the Moon, especially if this is a male chart, but not until I find out in what bounds the lights reside and how they are configured with them.
I will bring those arguments in another topic and I expect other opinions as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Moderator
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 3482
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello Dracon,
Your post raises some very interesting points. I should just state my memory completely failed me on the chart I mentioned. The rising sign was Leo not Virgo! I think I incorrectly recalled it this way as Mercury was on the ASC. The Sun falls in the 1st WS house below the horizon. It was as in the 1st dynamical sector by Porphyry houses. The Moon is in the 12th WS house and dynamical sector.
Here is the data:
ASC: 5'09 Leo
Sun: 24'35 Leo
Moon: 3'58 Cancer
Mercury: 6'05 Leo
Venus: 22'33 Leo
Mars: 6'18 Cancer
Jupiter: 21'01 Leo
Saturn: 14'20 Virgo
Lot of Fortune: 25'46 Virgo
Lot of Spirit: 14'32 Gemini
The client was female.
Sorry for the confusion caused.
I took the Sun to be the predominator. I was unclear what to do for a domicile Master. I know see the Sun is in the bound of Mercury. Mercury lies on the rising degree and in its house of joy. It also lies in the bound of Jupiter like the ASC degree. I took Mercury as the Kurios. This fits the occupation of the client well which involves advice work including legal advocacy.
Mark
_________________
“In nature's infinite book of secrecy a little I can read.” Antony and Cleopatra i.2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
astrojin
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello,
To Ile,
Thanx for the comments and I see that your questions have been addressed by the experts here!
All the best in your study! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Moderator
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 3482
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dracon wrote:
| Quote: | Hylegical places are always first option. We search the house which conduct most dynamical and favorable business for the native. Observe that Vettius Valens used a dynamical house system to judge this topic. Perhaps, in this inquiry, dynamical places win against the good or bad places.
|
Very good point. Its something I have been pondering myself lately too. How can we determine if the predominator is 'fit for business' without determining its distance from the angles? As the length of life was calculated using quadrant/dynamical porphry houses there seems a good case for giving serious consideration to quadrant houses in calculating the predominator. Yet reading Astrojins notes Robert Schmidt seems to be focusing on whole sign houses as the key determinant. From what I can see the process of identifying the natal predominator and the apheta for length of life calculation are identical.
Mark
_________________
“In nature's infinite book of secrecy a little I can read.” Antony and Cleopatra i.2
Last edited by Mark on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:54 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
Skyscript on Facebook