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Hellenistic Astrology 2: Primary Chart Rulers
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Hellenistic Astrology 2: Primary Chart Rulers Reply with quote

Hello again,

Hellenistic astrologers have a number of primary rulers, all of which have different functions.

The first (and probably most important) that we are going to look into is the predominator of a chart.

Determination of the Predominator of a chart:
The predominator of a chart is the luminary of time (sun by day or moon by night) provided it is not cadent.

If in a day chart the sun is cadent, we take then moon as predominator.
If in a night chart the moon is cadent, we take the sun as predominator.

If both luminaries are cadent, the ascendant becomes the predominator.
Some astrologers also said that if the domicile ruler of the ascendant is also cadent, then we should use the Lot of Fortune.

[My own twist: The cadent luminary can still be predominator if it is in his/her own house of Joy i.e. sun in 9th or moon in 3rd. Sun in 9th is in his own house of Joy and also in his own sun-god house. Moon in 3rd is in her own house of Joy and also in her own moon-goddess house]

The predominator is the planet that represents the life of the native. The trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator tell use the thirds life of the native i.e. the first trigon lord = first part of life, second trigon lord = second part of life and third trigon lord = third part of life.

Once the predominator has been determined, we can then proceed to the oikodespotes of the natal chart.

Determination of the Oikodespotes

The term oikodespotes [domicile master] is used in domicile master/ruler of signs e.g. Mars is oikodespotes of Aries and Venus is oikodespotes of Taurus.

We say that Mars (or Venus) is the domicile master or oikodespotes of Aries (or Taurus) because it claims that sign as his dwelling place.

Following the same argument, we also have oikodespotes (domicile master) of the whole chart itself. To determine this, we must determine the predominator first in a nativity.

The domicile ruler of the predominator's sign is the domicile master (oikodespotes) of the chart (the planet that claims the whole chart as his dwelling place).
The domicile master is the one who sets the agenda/policy in native’s life.

The bound (term) ruler of the predominator is the oversight i.e. the one who sets the restriction over the domicile master (oikodespotes) of the chart.

In chart delieneation, you would want the domicile master of the predominator (oikodespotes) to aspect the predominator
and
the bound ruler of the predominator to aspect or configured to the domicile master (oikodespotes) of the chart. You also want to see whether these planets are “favorable” to the native.


The next planet that is equally important in the overall rulership of a nativity (besides Oikodespotes or domicile master of the chart) is called Kurios [Lord of the nativity]. Kurios is the executor of the agenda that Oikodespotes (domicile master) holds.

Determination of Kurios
Kurios of a chart is determined from the following candidates:-

1. Ascendant sign. We look to the planet(s) in the Ascendant sign AND bounds of the ascending degree.

2. Domicile Lord of Ascendant.

3. Moon and its Domicile Lord

4. Tenth sign from ascendant and its Domicile Lord

5. Lot of Fortune and its Domicile Lord.

6. Any planets that make phasis* in the chart. Should also include planets that make a first or second station 7 days before or after nativity.

7. The bound lord of the pre-natal lunation.

The Kurios (The Lord of the nativity) is determined using the above hierarchy AND is also fit to conduct its business*.

* see my previous post on Hellenistic astrology - Preliminary Natal Analysis.

Example:
Whole sign house, Dorotheus Triplicity and Egptian Bound (Term) rulers.

Chart of Hitler [Diurnal chart, Sun in Tau in 8th house, Moon in Cap in 3rd house, Asc in Lib].

Diurnal chart:

Predominator:
We first look to Sun and Sun is not cadent - hence Sun is the predominator. Trigon lords of predominator are Venus, Moon and Mars.

Oikodespotes
Domicile master (oikodespotes) of the chart is then the domicile master of predominator's sign i.e. Venus (which happens to be in 8th house in Taurus). The bound (or term) ruler of predominator (sun) is also Venus.

Kurios

Candidates:
1. No planets in the bounds of the ascending degree.
2. Asc is in Libra, domicile lord of ascendant is Venus
3. Moon is in Capricorn, domicile lord is Saturn
4. MC in Sagittarius, domicile lord is Jupiter
5. Lot of Fortune is in Cancer, domicile lord is moon
6. Planets making phasis in the chart: Venus and Mars
7. Prenatal lunation is Full Moon in 26 Libra. Bound/Term lord is Venus

Kurios is then Venus

Hence,
Predominator is Sun.
1st part of life = Venus, 2nd part of life = Moon and 3rd part of life = Mars

Oikodespotes (domicile master) is Venus.
Bound (term ruler) of predominator is also Venus.

Kurios is Venus.


Nautical Metaphor
It seems that Hellenistic astrologers use the nautical metaphor to describe a natal chart.

The ship itself = the native’s life = predominator.
The first and second Trigon (triplicity) lords of the predominator = the winds that carry the ship to its destiny. The third trigon (triplicity) lord is the oars that move the ship.

Oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of the chart = ship owner = the one who sets the agenda or destiny for the native under the restriction set by the bound ruler of the pre-dominator.

Kurios (Lord of the nativity) = Captain of the ship = Executor = the one who is responsible to bring the ship to the destination set by Oikodespotes (Domicile Master).

Ascendant sign = “helm” of the ship = physical life.
Domicile Lord of the Ascendant = Helmsman = the First Officer of the ship.

Lot of Fortune = everything that befalls the native through not of his own doing.
Domicile Lord of the Lot of Fortune = man on the prow of the ship = Second Officer who is on the look out for the things/events that are going to befall the native.

It is important that the Lord of Lot of Fortune be able to communicate with the Domicile Master or Ascendant (Helmsman) or Lord of the nativity (Kurios)


Last edited by astrojin on Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s a bad dream. It’s like suffocating and pleading, unheard, for fresh air. ‘This plus that equals that’. And just around the corner the ever-recurrent ‘Woe unto the child who has too many planets in cadent houses’. Formulae for existence. Keep an eye on the malefics.

Rules. Schemes of plus and minus. You could, you can’t. Implied: you will, you won’t. A tight and cutting belt from birth – a gift from the Greeks. Or perhaps you’re the lucky one: Everything smiles. The gods smile, the planets smile, and you smile – as you are blessed to receive that which you desire. It’s in the formulae. It’s in the birth stamp. It’s all right here on the page, awaiting decipherment.

Astrology is becoming smaller. Easier, for those who like definitions for existence. But it’s wrong. Something’s wrong. We are feet inhabiting brains; we are soles that feel no earth. We walk not on sod and soil, but on concepts of what will create and deny, or destroy, life. The gods who would throw us into the world and force us to act were killed ages ago – we only have eyeglasses for reading the parchments describing their intentions. Astrology eludes us. We sometimes get close; it slips away, yet again. Our weak bones can no longer carry the weight of its flesh. A waste of time. A waste.
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It’s a bad dream. It’s like suffocating and pleading, unheard, for fresh air. ‘This plus that equals that’. And just around the corner the ever-recurrent ‘Woe unto the child who has too many planets in cadent houses’. Formulae for existence. Keep an eye on the malefics.


An insightful response.

This is why I prefer the astrology of the late Elizabethans to the astrology of the ancient Greeks.

Better late and a bit loose than early and too tight. Wink
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
An insightful response.


Not very much. It is somewhat pretensious and I feel that it was disrespectful to the work of Astrojin. If you don´t like the existence of rules, if you are superior to them, ok. But I don´t see you giving anything as positive as astrojin is trying here.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3201
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is somewhat pretensious and I feel that it was disrespectful to the work of Astrojin.


I agree. We can do without the sarcasm. If you don't like it, ignore it.

Tom
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all,

I am not going to say much about the negative responses...

I posted these so that everbody could share these materials. Nothing more.

Let me remind you that some of the people here did not post concepts that they are championing. When you attack their posts, they will feel that they are being attacked personally and they would then take the offensive stance of championing the posts (when in reality they are not advocates of those posts in the first place!). I am certainly not your typical hellenistic astrologer and I do not use some these concepts, so I am not going to defend them.

So, I think I'll take the passive response. I shall withdraw myself altogether. I hope I have done more good than harm...God knows better.

To Deborah Houlding - Thank you ever so much for having this forum. Must have been a lot to maintain such wonderful website!
May God bless you always!
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I posted these so that everbody could share these materials. Nothing more.


That is the purpose of the forum and your posts have always been entirely within that framework. Feel free to continue with this work. There are people who read and benefit from such posts whether they respond or not. Thank you for your efforts.

Tom
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Edith



Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucky you, Kirk! I feel a similar sense of despair but mine stems from my overwhelming sense of ignorance.

I am in the process of wading - or should I call it muddling - through various texts and books in order to gain some rudimentary understanding of the major sources of our western astrological foundations, including but not limited to Hellenistic Astrology.

Astrojin's summary of his or her notes on Hellenistic Astrology is IMHO one of the clearest presentations on the subject I have come across. S/he has cut through a lot of waffle and has offered this forum the results and deductions of some fine research. Private conclusions and observations have been clearly identified as such.

I may or may not apply some or all of the concepts in my own work but then my understanding is that we all accept some concepts of what we learn and discard or reject others, no matter what the subject is, otherwise we'd be reduced to robotic regurgitators or inevitably, Mamma Mia! trip up on our own dogmas.

I have noted on previous posts that Astrojin's work is of the standard that I can only hope to gain one day.

So my vote is, Astrojin, keep on sharing your knowledge and bring on the next post, the sooner the better.

Kirk, your posts also show a fine mind and one that doesn't seem to be too afraid of confrontation so I'm looking forward to some more vigorous discussion in a supportive manner.

Cheers all

Edith
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 545

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,

please don't stop writing on this subject. I've finally found a place where I can learn so much about hellenistic astrology, but not only about it...
this forum is really great.
What you've presented here is simply outstanding-your writing is concise, clear and very educative.So I would give you an advice-do not read the ignorant negative comments and don't let them discourage you.

There are so many of us who are very grateful to you for your great contribution to this forum.
I hope you'll stay with us because we need you-it's as simple as that. Smile
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin,

I second the other people here who ask you to keep on sharing the information you've got. I think it has been perfectly clear that you don't have to subscribe 100% to every idea that you've presented here. Your second post was highly informative and interesting, and I think I was not the only one who printed it out on paper for later study; now we only have to study how those priciples work in practice before accepting them blindly (and I think no one here is doing that!). In general you've been very generous in your sharing here and really enriched this forum.

Kirk, what has been the matter with you lately? You're like a bully on the schoolyard, keeping pushing all the others. Everything seems to be just rubbish for you, be it Hellenistic astrology or Sabian symbols or what else...
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not very much. It is somewhat pretensious and I feel that it was disrespectful to the work of Astrojin. If you don´t like the existence of rules, if you are superior to them, ok. But I don´t see you giving anything as positive as astrojin is trying here.


I disagree, but that's your perception, and you're entitled to it. The rules of any form of astrology apply only to that particular approach. There are no universally agreed upon, let alone formally validated, absolute astrological rules. I think the perspective represented by the Elizabethan approach to astrology is far more flexible, much more organic. I think that may have been Kirk's point too, although he expressed it differently. His comments were perhaps disrespectful of the Hellenistic approach to astrology, but not necessarily of the work of Astrojin. He's entitled to his point of view, as is Astrojin.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that may have been Kirk's point too, although he expressed it differently. His comments were perhaps disrespectful of the Hellenistic approach to astrology, but not necessarily of the work of Astrojin.


I had that opinion too. There is something to think about here. How often do members of this forum make disparaging remarks about modern astrology without appreciating (or caring) how offensive those comments can be to the astrologers who follow those techniques? (I’m talking about the Skyscript forum generally, BTW, not the traditional section in particular).

There is an ongoing tightrope in this forum between avoiding offensive posts, and discouraging passionate and earnest debate about controversial – but sometimes important – concerns. Losing Astrojin’s contribution will be a serious loss to the forum and I’ll add my name to the petition for him to reconsider. One comment in particular struck a chord with me:

Quote:
“I've finally found a place where I can learn so much about hellenistic astrology, but not only about it...”


Yes, I agree. It’s nice to be able to talk about issues like sect, without wondering whether you are getting drawn into one Smile

I would be happy to offer Astrojin locked threads if it will encourage him to continue with his notes without fear of distraction. At the same time, there is something in Kirk’s post – some sense of him putting his finger on something I can’t quite put my finger on, that reassures me that I’m not alone in feeling suffocated by some aspects of the modern analysis of Hellenistic technique. This is not something that I experience when I read the actual texts or primary sources, and it does not detract from my own genuine interest in ancient and classical astrology.

All the more reason why Astrojin’s open-minded and generous commentary is so valuable. I hope he will continue to keep us informed. We shouldn’t try to stop the commentary but perhaps we can all be a bit more considerate in where, when and how we offer our views? And a bit more relaxed when we read the views of others?


Last edited by Deb on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 445
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Astrojin,

please don't stop writing on this subject. I've finally found a place where I can learn so much about hellenistic astrology, but not only about it...
this forum is really great.
What you've presented here is simply outstanding-your writing is concise, clear and very educative.So I would give you an advice-do not read the ignorant negative comments and don't let them discourage you.

There are so many of us who are very grateful to you for your great contribution to this forum.
I hope you'll stay with us because we need you-it's as simple as that. Smile


I'm thirding this. Astrojin, don't let the haters get you down!
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I’ll add my name to the petition for him to reconsider.

I'll add mine too Smile

I don't find anything 'suffocating' at all about what Astrojin has written. It's part of astrological tradition and even though some people may not like some aspects of it but that doesn't change the tradition.

Nowhere in Astrojin's post were personal evaluations such as
Quote:
‘Woe unto the child who has too many planets in cadent houses’. Formulae for existence. Keep an eye on the malefics.
Rules. Schemes of plus and minus. You could, you can’t. Implied: you will, you won’t.

and
Quote:
perhaps you’re the lucky one: Everything smiles. The gods smile, the planets smile, and you smile – as you are blessed to receive that which you desire.

These are not unchangeable rules imposed by gods and it's up to the individual to see if they have any validity or to decide whether they apply them in their astrology. I found Kirk's critisicism didn't help to have constructive discussions about those techniques. For example, I don't necessarily think that people with many planets in cadent houses can't receive what they desire.

Quote:
Astrology is becoming smaller.

Astrojin's posts have enlarged my astrology and I hope he/she'll stay with us and I eagerly await more from him/her Smile
The same goes for Kirk. I also appreciate his contributions( but when he's in a better mood, perhaps) Smile
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gem wrote:

I don't find anything 'suffocating' at all about what Astrojin has written. It's part of astrological tradition and even though some people may not like some aspects of it but that doesn't change the tradition.


Agreed. If anything it is pretty vital and something greatly lacking in later approaches.

Gem wrote:

Nowhere in Astrojin's post were personal evaluations such as
Quote:
‘Woe unto the child who has too many planets in cadent houses’. Formulae for existence. Keep an eye on the malefics.
Rules. Schemes of plus and minus. You could, you can’t. Implied: you will, you won’t.

and
Quote:
perhaps you’re the lucky one: Everything smiles. The gods smile, the planets smile, and you smile – as you are blessed to receive that which you desire.

These are not unchangeable rules imposed by gods and it's up to the individual to see if they have any validity or to decide whether they apply them in their astrology. I found Kirk's critisicism didn't help to have constructive discussions about those techniques. For example, I don't necessarily think that people with many planets in cadent houses can't receive what they desire.


Mostly agreed. Smile I do think it is important to realize that people and their lives are very much determined. It may be uncomfortable to agree to that, in this age of "Just do it!" and other "free will" inspired fantasies, but we live in this world, not the world of our hopes, fancies, and dreams. Now we can argue how or even if astrology can help us to see this determination with total or at least significant clarity.

Gem wrote:

Quote:
Astrology is becoming smaller.

Astrojin's posts have enlarged my astrology and I hope he/she'll stay with us and I eagerly await more from him/her Smile
The same goes for Kirk. I also appreciate his contributions( but when he's in a better mood, perhaps) Smile


Yes, Astrojin has done a nice job posting this for us. There is a criticism, and I'm not even sure it's completely relevant, but these are checklist-type notes, and people seem to be forgetting that there is a process of judgment involved. Astrology isn't like a blood test; it doesn't state that we have an excess of protein or not enough iron as matter of fact. We go through the delineation processes, and then we judge, as rational creatures, hopefully inspired by divinity and not fear or ignorance.

As for Kirk, he seems to be at a point I myself have been, in a state of doubt as to the worthiness of astrology. There is a lot of it, coming from many different angles and no one on earth has yet to really process it all. We do have some shining stars, but it seems we are destined now to have to eat the whole meal of the tradition before we can really make true sense of it. It probably a generational process at this point, if we are lucky we'll be alive for it.
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