The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified.

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The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified.
I canceled my rectified horoscope of the U.S.A. birthtime 2h17m a.m.
after I rectified the U.S.A. horoscope rectified by Marc H. Penfield: 2h20m p.m..
For the rectification I used the Dutch astrologer Gieles his minus 1 year progression system.
New rectified birthtime for the U.S.A.: 2h19m56s p.m. lmt; gmt: 19h20m35s.
Ascendant: 08.22.26 Scorpio; M.C. 15.52.03 Leo.
Progressive aspects:
7 june 1776 M.C. sextile radix Saturn; 4 july 1776 Mars conjunct radix Pars and Ascendant square radix Draconis; 15 november 1777 Draconis trine mutual Cusp 2.
I have more progressive aspects of this horoscope, which you can see on my website: www.andriescats.nl.
My conclusion: this rectified horoscope can only be the very veritable horoscope of the United States of America!

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My conclusion: this rectified horoscope can only be the very veritable horoscope of the United States of America!
The problem I have here is that there are so many contenders for the title of the one and only valid chart for the 4th of July 1776. Lots of excellent astrologers have passionately argued why the USA chart has to have this time or that rising sign. The main contenders are Gemini, Sagittarius (Sibly), Virgo (Boehrer/Dobyns or Howland version) or Scorpio (Penfield). Of these the most popular seem to be the Sagittarius and Gemini rising charts. In addition a multitude of rectifications have been proposed to support these differing charts.

If all that isn't confusing enough there are those that argue that the 4th of July 1776 was not the key date anyway as the 2nd of July was when the the American colonies first described themselves as the United States of America and declared independence from Britain. There is therefore a chart for July 2nd (The Armistead chart). I am sure there is lots of scope for rectifications on this chart too.

Not to your taste? Never mind there is no shortage of available charts. Why wait until 1776? What about the date the Continental Congress actually declared war on Great Britain? After all that formally kicked off the whole process long before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Sound interesting? If so the 6th of July chart for 1775 (Boyd chart) is for you.

This link provides the main contenders/times but this is not an exhaustive list.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/USA.htm

For a fuller objective discussion on the whole issue of charts for the founding of the USA I highly recommend 'The Book of World Horoscopes' by Nicholas Campion.

While it is fun to study the competing contenders for a 1776 or 1775 chart I suggest it might be wiser and a lot less confusing to start working with some USA charts with some kind of verifiable time behind them that link directly to modern American political institutions like the federal constitution of the USA and the Presidency.

In 1776 the 13 American colonies had not formed what we know as the modern USA. That didn't take shape until the creation of the constitution which laid out the institutions of Congress, President and Supreme Court as we understand today. The division of powers between executive , legislature , judiciary and state powers which defines modern American government only begin with the federal constitution. This is how mundane or national charts for the rest of the world are assessed. Why should the USA be different?

The Presidential chart for inauguration of George Washington and the Federal Constitution chart(s) are therefore strong runners. With these charts we have times and we can actually describe a recognisable government of the USA assuming power. On the Constitution one can go for dates/times based on its initial signing, ratification or de facto date/time in force.

The US 'Presidential chart'. ie the inauguration chart for the very first US President seems a key one to compare against the candidates for the forthcoming Presidential election. Its one of the very few accurately timed charts we have: April 30, 1789, New York, NY between 12:40 and 12:45 p.m. LMT. Source: Campion, "Book of World Horoscopes,"

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The division of powers between executive , legislature , judiciary and state powers which defines modern American government only begin with the federal constitution. This is how mundane or national charts for the rest of the world are assessed. Why should the USA be different?
Good point. The only answer I can come up with is that the Declaration of Independence stated to the world, although it was addressed to King George III, what the country stood for, and why it would no longer abide by traditional monarchy. What came afterward were attempts to incorporate those original ideas stated in the preamble. One system failed one worked for a while until the Civil War, and it had to be modified so those mistakes wouldn't happen again. That makes the July 4 date unique (I think) in world History. The Magna Carta didn't dump monarchy. It redefined it.

Still Mark's point is a good one.

Tom

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The only answer I can come up with is that the Declaration of Independence stated to the world, although it was addressed to King George III, what the country stood for, and why it would no longer abide by traditional monarchy. What came afterward were attempts to incorporate those original ideas stated in the preamble. One system failed one worked for a while until the Civil War, and it had to be modified so those mistakes wouldn't happen again. That makes the July 4 date unique (I think) in world History. The Magna Carta didn't dump monarchy. It redefined it.
It cannot be denied there were unique features to the Declaration of Independence. A positive , excellently crafted statement of republican nationship which was undeniably first on the world stage. However, it had clear historical antecedents too.

While people inevitably look to Magna Carta as the closest historical precedent for a Declaration of independence a better comparison probably comes from Scotland.

The Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 was a declaration of Scottish independence and sovereignty. It also established the principle that sovereignty rested with the people not the monarch.

To quote the document:
for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom ? for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath

The Scottish influence on the Declaration of Independence has been something academics have taken more interest in lately. Not just the Declaration of Arbroath itself but also the influence of Presbyterian educators in America in the 18th century. The tradition of the Covenanters who defied the King Charles on religious grounds also made insurrection against an unjust English King conceivable.

http://www.amazon.com/Scottish-Inventio ... 0761827919

Nine of the framers of the Declaration of Independence were of Scots ancestry and many others had an educational background strongly influenced by Scots academics. These included Thomas Jefferson himself who was educated at William and Mary college Virginia where he came under the tuteledge of William Small, a Scottish professor of mathematics and natural philosophy who became Jefferson's prime awakener and inspirer. Jefferson once wrote that Small was "as a father" to him.

Of course I don't want to overemphasize this point. Jefferson will have been influenced by John Locke and Thomas Paine like many other late 18th century Americans. Still it shows that the Declaration of Independence didn't come out of a vacuum even if left its predecessors looking quite shabby in comparison.

Despite my enthusiasm for later charts like the Presidential or federal constitution dates/times I accept the 4th of July has an important symbolic role in American history.

I am not opposed to charts from 1776. I personally use the Sagittarius rising (Sibly) chart. Its just there are so many possible charts and times I don't forsee an astrological consensus on this any time soon. Some charts clearly have little or no historical basis ( especially the Gemini rising chart). However, the romantic school of astrology will prefer this over historical evidence. Other charts though can have equally logical cases made for them ie morning chart ( Virgo rising), Afternoon chart (Scorpio rising) or late afternoon (Sagittarius rising). IMHO The strongly religious nature of the USA, its positive optimistic outlook, and the American tendency to think and consume on a large scale all seem to be explained to me in part by a Sag rising chart. I therefore think its no accident that it was the USA that put the first man on the Moon. However, I understand and respect the fact that others will have equally convinced arguments for other charts/times for the 4th of July 1776.

In any case as Nicholas Campion states nations are not people. They don't have to have a single historically significant birth times. Although all mundane astrology operates on the basis that some dates/times will have a stronger resonance than others. Rather than proposing the 'one and only' chart I therefore favour exploring a variety of USA charts.

4th of July 1776 clearly has to be one of those as a seed moment. I would compare this to key dates in Irish history. First off we have the Easter Rising of 1916. This represents the aspiration of the Irish people for independence from Britain. However, there was no political settlement to support this aspiration yet. The 1922 chart represents the de facto separation from Great Britain as the Irish Free State. Finally the 1949 chart marks the birth of the Irish Republic and Ireland formally ending all political links to Great Britain through the British Empire or Commonwealth.

The history of America is rather like this except we have a multitude of candidate dates. Sadly, the exact timing for the Declaration of Independence remains controversial. Thats why I prefer to start off with charts like the Federal Constitution and Presidential chart which have clear times and represent the beginning of modern American politics as we know it. At least with these charts there is more hope of an astrological consensus.
Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Hi Mark,

Although I'm well aware of the influence of John Locke and Thomas Paine on Jefferson, everyone has antecedents, I do have to confess I've never heard of the influence of the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath on the American Declaration of Independence. This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Tom

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Ironically, its not a public holiday here in Scotland
We did the same thing to the Irish, i.e. took their holiday. St. Patrick's Day celebrations in New York City are bigger than anything in Dublin, Ireland

Tom

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The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified.
I canceled my rectified horoscope of the U.S.A. birthtime 2h17m a.m.
after I rectified the U.S.A. horoscope rectified by Marc H. Penfield: 2h20m p.m..
I see Michael O'Reilly has produced a book entitled 'Political Astrology' . It works on a Scorpio rising chart similar to Marc Penfield's suggested Scorpio rising chart but rectifies the time marginally from 2.20pm to 2.21pm.

It has received a glowing review from Ray Merriman on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Astrolo ... 095&sr=8-1

Michael O'Reilly also puts his basic case for the Scorpio rising chart on his website:

http://politicalastrology.homestead.com/Main.html

Apparently, the book lays out the case for the Scorpio rising chart in considerable detail. I look forward to receiving my copy. However, there is always the problem of any work starting from a preconceived viewpoint and seeking evidence to support it. I think Nicholas Campion's discussion of all the 1776 charts from his Book of World horoscopes is essential initial reading in this area.

One argument made in favour of the Scorpio rising chart is the scorpionic image of the Bald Eagle chosen for the federal government of the USA. However, I think that tells us more about the much later federal government than the 'spirit of 1776'. Irrespective of which 1776 chart is chosen we have the option of a Scorpio rising chart for the Federal Government chart.

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One argument made in favour of the Scorpio rising chart is the scorpionic image of the Bald Eagle chosen for the federal government of the USA. However, I think that tells us more about the much later federal government than the 'spirit of 1776'. Irrespective of which 1776 chart is chosen we have the option of a Scorpio rising chart for the Federal Government chart.
Thank you, Mark! The Scorpio chart as the chart of the federal government makes sense to me. I never could see it as the nation as a whole.


On the web page that Mark linked to above, Michael O?Reilly writes:
The most prominent national characteristics are symbolized by the Ascendant, so in a country known worldwide as the only remaining superpower, it makes sense that the United States should have Scorpio Rising, the sign directly associated with the eagle. ..... The Scorpio and Sagittarius Ascendants derive their historical legitimacy from several written accounts which indicate that John Hancock signed the document when it came out of committee during the afternoon of the fourth.
http://politicalastrology.homestead.com/Main.html

An image near the text contains a caption that reads, ?The Eagle is a Scorpio symbol?. In contrast, Lilly lists the planet Jupiter for the eagle on page 64 of CA. However, in discussing Mars on page 68 Lilly writes: (with original parentheses) ?(some say the Eagle)?. So the eagle could apply equally to two consecutive signs, Scorpio and Sagittarius, by way of Mars and Jupiter. The eagle could be the indication ? a sign from the heavens? ? that we are to use more than one chart. That gives us a long afternoon to work with. Perhaps indeed there are different charts for different moments of that afternoon. A Scorpio rising moment could apply to the federal government, a Sagittarius moment could apply to the character of the people and the nation as a whole. It would be interesting to find out as nearly as possible everything that happened that afternoon.

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I better clarify what I mean by ''federal government chart''.

There are 3 potential times Nicholas Campion suggests for a federal constitution chart.

First is signing of the constitution:

17/09/1787 Philadelphia 4.00pm. Campion cites two historians for this time. However, there other times listed for this chart on the Astrodatabank discussion of this chart (oddly Campion isn't mentioned). Particularly, 11.29am although no explicit source is listed. This gives a chart with Sagittarius rising and a Sagittarius Moon. The 4.00pm time gives a chart with Aquarius rising and a Sagittarius Moon.

Second is the ratification by the necessary 2/3 of states.
This came about with the ratification of New Hampshire.
21/06/1788. Campion doesn't cite a time for this.

Thirdly, is when the federal constitution came into effect:
04/03/1789 Philadelphia 00.00 hours.
Possibly the only US chart we can be 100% sure of on timing. For once rectifications are redundant.

Congress met for the first time at 9.00am later that day. So a 'Congressional chart' could be timed for then.

At the moment I am giving more weight to what I call the ''USA Federal Government chart'' of 4/3/1789 with its precise timing.

The Federal Government chart has Scorpio rising (27 degrees) and a Gemini Moon. Mercury is retrograde which seems to be a strong argument against any notion this time was elected on astrological principles.

Another important point I have just noticed is that 20 years before adopting the constitution the Confederal government of the USA which ran from 1781-1789 was also strongly Scorpio in quality. David Solte has argued the Confederal goverment chart should be timed for when the 2nd Continental Congress adopted the Articles of Confederation and sent this to to the 13 states for their ratification. This chart has Sun, MC, Mercury and Saturn in Scorpio! Solte argues this is the effective chart for the USA although others have argued the ratification time is more important for a Confederal government chart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation

In my opinion although this is undeniably the first government of the USA It needs to be acknowledged that this was an unsuccessful model of government in the US due to the inherent weakness of the confederal goverment constitution and its lack of any decisive authority over of the states. The lack of a USA wide military, executive, judiciary , fiscal policy or co-ordinated economy created overwhelming difficulties for this first attempt at a USA government. Modern American political institutions ie the Presidency, Congress, Supreme court, defined state powers and of course the constitution itself all date from the introduction of the federal government which comes nearly 20 years later. Still, if we accept Solte's chart just for the Confederal government era and use the Federal Government chart of 4/03/1789 it could be argued American government has always had a strong scorpio quality since it first came into existence.

This is from Astrodatabank:
Source Notes: David Solte's Presentation of the U.S. chart, data given in San Diego Astrological Society "The Uranian," May 1993, time rectified. He used the minutes of the Continental Congress to narrow down the passage of the Articles of Confederation to a few hours between 11:00 am and 2:00 pm on Nov. 15, 1777, when they were meeting in York, PA. Solte then rectified the chart to 12:46 pm Local Mean Time for the date and time when the Articles of Confederation became effective. The Declaration of Independence had declared that America was a separate entity from Great Britain, but it was not until the Confederation was established that the U.S. became a group of states united under one government. Quite a few astrologers find that this chart works well for following the fortunes of the US government and the nation as a whole.
David Solte's chart is on display with others here:
http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/USA.htm#DavidSolte

Solte's rectified chart for the Confederal Government has the Sun at 22 Scorpio and the MC at 23 Scorpio which comes quite close to the ASC degree of the Federal Government for 04/03/1789.

Ron Grimes chart for the ratification of the Articles of Confederation is interesting too. It has Jupiter on the exact degree of the later federal government chart (27 Scorpio). Maybe that fulfills the joint Jupiter/Mars influences Kirk raised earlier here.

Its interesting that the Bald Eagle was first adopted by USA government from June 20th 1782 during the Confederal Government period. It become adopted as an official symbol of USA government in 1787.

http://www.baldeagleinfo.com/eagle/eagle9.html

Apparently the bald eagle was chosen as the emblem of the United States of America, because of its long life, great strength and majestic looks, and also because it was then believed to exist only on the North American continent. However, it was also perceived as a symbol of 'authority and power'. The eagle is traditionally a symbol of power and empires such as those of Ancient Rome, Napoleonic France, and the Unified Germany have all utilised it. Benjamin Franklin opposed the adoption of the this national symbol because he argued it had negative associations.
''I wish that the bald eagle had not been chosen as the representative of our country, he is a bird of bad moral character, he does not get his living honestly, you may have seen him perched on some dead tree, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the labor of the fishing-hawk, and when that diligent bird has at length taken a fish, and is bearing it to its nest for the support of his mate and young ones, the bald eagle pursues him and takes it from him.... Besides he is a rank coward; the little kingbird, not bigger than a sparrow attacks him boldly and drives him out of the district. He is therefore by no means a proper emblem for the brave and honest. . . of America.. . . For a truth, the turkey is in comparison a much more respectable bird, and withal a true original native of America . . . a bird of courage, and would not hesitate to attack a grenadier of the British guards, who should presume to invade his farmyard with a red coat on. ''Benjamin Franklin
One can only wonder how the history of the USA might have been different if the Contintental Congress had gone for Benjamin Franklin's suggestion of a Turkey as the national emblem! :)

If you prefer a more patriotic, romantic explanation there is also a story which claims eagle was used as the national emblem because during one of the first battles of the Revolutionary War, the noise of the struggle early in the morning woke the eagles from their nests. They circled overhead. Many of the men fighting said that the shrieking sounded like the word freedom. I have no idea what the source for this legend is.

I think if we stick with signs rather than planets there is a much clearer link to the symbol of the eagle with Scorpio than Sagittarius. Medieval sources such as Ibn Ezra make the link between Scorpio and birds of prey quite explicit. Scorpio is often associated with the constellation 'Aquilla' the Eagle.

Re: The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified.

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Andries H. Cats wrote:My conclusion: this rectified horoscope can only be the very veritable horoscope of the United States of America!
The standard for rectification in mundane astrology is the same as personal astrology, which is at least 1 major significant event for each decade. It will take at least 24 major significant events for an acceptable rectification of the USA chart.

I really think astrologers need to get together and develop a standard for rectification for country natal charts. An accurate rectification for the US should include territorial acquisitions (Gadsden Purhcase, Alaska Purchase, Louisiana Purchase, Florida and annexation of Texas), all 4 assassinations, at least 6 military conflicts plus the Civil War, 9-11, the resignation of Nixon, the Supreme Court's ruling on Brown v Board of Education, Marbury v Madison, In Re Dred Scott, and Roe v Wade, plus constitutional amendments, and financial actions, like the creation of the Federal Reserve, and both departures from the gold standard (1933 and 1974).

Of course the real test of any chart is its predictive ability, and one that cannot clearly predict the outcome of the 2008 Election is not the correct natal chart.