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Exercice: the death
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bouhha



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 16

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Exercice: the death Reply with quote

Hello everybody

My uncle (the brother of my father) was very sick. He had a cancer and was suffering a lot.
So I asked this question: when will he die?

4 août 2007 4.40 pm Paris France

He died the 6 december 2007

How can you explain it with the chart?
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Yossarian
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't try. In Horary Astrology it is best to phrase the question in a way that will elicit a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

The question of 'when' is best answered by using transits and secondary progressions to the natal chart, or transits and solar arcs to the natal chart, or solar returns, lunar returns or harmonics, or better yet, a combination of those or other techniques (for verification).

You'd be looking at the activation of the 4th, 8th and 12th Houses, and the 9th House or its ruler should come into play, since after all, one will be taking the longest journey of their life.
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What house were you using to signify your uncle? It's also helpful if you note the ascendant you get so we can be sure we're on the same page.

Also the convention on this forum is for the poser of the question to offer his/her own attempts at understanding the chart first.

Tara
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chrysalis



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Bouhha,

If I set your chart correctly I have 1 Sag on the ascendant. Is that correct? If so, your father's brother is shown by the radical 6th house of the chart and it's ruler, the turned 3rd house from the 4th, and so shown by Venus.

For the significator of death we have the choice of the radical 8th house ruler, which is Mercury in the chart I set with Regiomontanus houses, the ruler of the turned 8th house from the 6th, which is Jupiter, or the natural planetary ruler of death, Saturn.

The timing of the death is given by the retrograding Venus as your uncle moving back into Leo and making a conjunction with Saturn the natural ruler of death at roughly 27.33 Leo. The distance traveled for the two to make aspect is a little more than 4 degrees, giving the four month time frame for the event.

Best wishes,
Julie
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Yossarian
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrysalis wrote:
The timing of the death is given by the retrograding Venus as your uncle moving back into Leo and making a conjunction with Saturn the natural ruler of death at roughly 27.33 Leo. The distance traveled for the two to make aspect is a little more than 4 degrees, giving the four month time frame for the event.


That's really bad astrology. The ASC is 1 Sagittarius, so the question is premature.

End of story.

There's no point in having rules for Horary/Electional Astrology if astrologers are going to violate the rules to feel good.

Regardless, the distance between Venus and Saturn is actually 5 degrees 24 minutes, not "a little more than 4 degrees" so the conjunction occurs on August 13 at 9:13 pm, and the Moon, not the planets, is the timer in Electional Astrology.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yossarian wrote:
I wouldn't try. In Horary Astrology it is best to phrase the question in a way that will elicit a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

The question of 'when' is best answered by using transits and secondary progressions to the natal chart, or transits and solar arcs to the natal chart, or solar returns, lunar returns or harmonics, or better yet, a combination of those or other techniques (for verification).

You'd be looking at the activation of the 4th, 8th and 12th Houses, and the 9th House or its ruler should come into play, since after all, one will be taking the longest journey of their life.


Well, that's bad astrology also, I'd say.
Besides, it is NOT required that we always ask a question in a way that will elicit a 'yes' or 'no' answer...the death WILL occur, so it doesn't make any particular sense in the context of this situation to pose such a question, does it? The way the question was initially posed makes all the sense in the world.
Moreover, horary lends itself readily to any kind of analysis...or are you saying that Lilly&co. all got it so very wrong??? Have you read "Christian Astrology", at least a bit? Where does your precious information come from, I dare ask?
Apart from that, taking the ruler of the 9th(or 12th) as a relevant significator in death questions clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding in this matter...or should I say,lack of knowledge?
I wouldn't have bothered to write this response if you hadn't been so arrogantly disrespectful in labelling somebody else's horary reading as "bad astrology"... it's your astrological reasoning that went wrong here, along with your proper respect for somebody else's opinion.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yossarian wrote:
chrysalis wrote:
The timing of the death is given by the retrograding Venus as your uncle moving back into Leo and making a conjunction with Saturn the natural ruler of death at roughly 27.33 Leo. The distance traveled for the two to make aspect is a little more than 4 degrees, giving the four month time frame for the event.


That's really bad astrology. The ASC is 1 Sagittarius, so the question is premature.

End of story.

There's no point in having rules for Horary/Electional Astrology if astrologers are going to violate the rules to feel good.

Regardless, the distance between Venus and Saturn is actually 5 degrees 24 minutes, not "a little more than 4 degrees" so the conjunction occurs on August 13 at 9:13 pm, and the Moon, not the planets, is the timer in Electional Astrology.


The rest of the planets CAN and DO play the role of the timers in horary, it's not just the moon Laughing the way you're putting it,only the aspects of the moon are able to perform anything or show us reliably the time frame in which the outcome of the question will become obvious...
Funny, never heard of that before, but it surely is an unique statement, as well as your confusion at the end of the paragraph where you bring electional astrology into play, without any apparent need for it...
All this began with a horary question, remember?
Furthermore, we use the symbolic time in horary, not the real time when the aspect is perfected, according to ephemeris...so the "August 13. at 9:13 pm" as the moment when this conjunction occurs is totally irrelevant and meaningles in the context of this question. As we already know, the person didn't die then, so it is clearly the wrong reasoning and technique YOU'RE showing off here.
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bouhha,

I am sorry to hear of your uncle's illness and your family's loss.

Could you please clarify what ascendant do you have for your chart? For some reason I have 10 Sagittarius.

Also, could you provide us a chart interpretation? It is the format that we are requested to follow on this list. The person who posts the question gives their best effort at interpreting the chart before we all chime in.

I would be interested in attempting to apply rules for finding death on the chart according to medical astrology (decumbiture). I look forward to your post.

Best wishes,

Pam
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"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
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bouhha



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 16

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

I have an AC at 1°50 Sagittarus

About my interpretation. I couldn't find one that fit the reality. At first, I did the same interpretation than Chrysalis.
My uncle died the 6th of december 2007, that means 4 months and 2 days after my question
In the chart, we can't find any orb of 4°. The orb between Vénus and Saturn is 5°24 (= the middle of January)

I have given you this chart as an exercice because I can't find any interpretation that explain the death of my uncle 4 months after the question.
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Darlene3



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 16
Location: USA

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone,

Bouhha,

If you take Julie’s analysis of Venus Rx applying to Saturn, which I think is a solid analysis, and look for additional factors that might speed perfection you may find your answer.

A likely place to start is the Moon. It is close applying to Saturn and will then translate Saturn to Venus simultaneous to Venus Rx mutually applying to Saturn. Venus and ‘Moon translating Saturn’ meet exactly in 3 degrees 25 minutes of ‘timing’ units (from Moon’s starting point). A reasonable assessment is between 3 degrees 25 minutes and 5 degrees 25 minutes in timing.

The Moon is fast which could speed the time closer to the lower number than to the higher. Many planets/angles in mutable signs are said to ‘hasten’ things, whatever they may be. I think mutually applying significators are said to speed a tad, but I am not positive.

My sympathies for your loss.

Kind regards,
Darlene
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bouhha,

The Moon applies to the square of Mercury, Lord of the radical 8th house, in 4 degrees 53 minutes. There's your 4 degrees (well nearly 5 but let's not split hairs).

L8 receives the moon however which normally would protect against death. In this case however, as your uncle was suffering so much, the fact that death was a welcome relief from suffering is indicated by L8’s reception of the moon.

Thanks Bouhha for this interesting example of reception.

Tara
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chrysalis



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The aspect between Venus and Saturn perfects at 27.29 Leo. The timing is given by the distance the faster moving of the two planets must travel to perfect the aspect, so while they are 5 degrees apart when the question is asked, they conjunct in less distance than that because Saturn is also moving forward while Venus moves backward. The distance traveled by Venus to perfect the aspect is 4 degrees 15 minutes, so a bit more than four months to the event, and so it proved.

The Moon does not go with the quesited, so since the uncle is the quesited, he does not become co-signified by the Moon. The Moon could carry however, carry the light from Venus to Saturn, but it must travel 5 plus degrees to perfect the translation of light between the two significators, so in my opinion, the Moon does not give the timing of the event.

Regarding the early ascendant, it's my understanding that the consideration before judgement on early and late degrees rising stems from a time when it could be difficult to tell exactly which sign was on the horizon near the change of ascending signs. In the modern age with atomic clocks and computers, we no longer have this difficulty. In any event, the chart gives the correct timing, and by that very fact, proves it's radicality.

I am new to this forum, and frankly appalled by the rudeness expressed here by posters when someone disagrees with them. I hope this is an isolated occurance and not the norm.

Best wishes,
Julie
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Julie,

Re your comment,
Quote:
The Moon does not go with the quesited

Deb teaches in her horary certificate course that the Moon can signify querent, quesited, or the situation in general. I find that a direct aspect between Moon and L8 in a question about death is more or certainly every bit as relevant as an aspect between lord of quesited and Saturn as general significator of death. Either way, we get our timing, as is often the case with reliable indicators of timing - it's there in more ways than one.

Tara
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chrysalis



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tara,

I studied with John Frawley, and he teaches that the Moon does not co-signify the quesited.

I certainly respect your point of view however.

Best wishes,
Julie
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Julie. We all find the teachers who are meant for us I guess. Difference of opinion makes for interesting conversation as long as it stays civil, as you pointed out.

Cheers. Smile
Tara
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