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The benefic Jupiter
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuki,

Thank you for the Winchell chart. It's an interesting one. Jupiter as ruler of the 5th does seem malefic toward children, OR – is it just an extremely weak Jupiter which is easily pushed over the edge by that partile square to Saturn? In other words, it's maybe not that Jupiter itself is malefic but that it's dominated by the out of sect malefic that has the power to control it. There's also the square to Uranus, but I can't get excited about that one. It's out of sign and Jupiter will SD before moving into Leo with Uranus and perfecting the aspect.

It looks like it's the out of sect Saturn reflecting the problem. But what about the fact that Jupiter disposits Saturn? Might that mean that instead of the usual assistance Jupiter would be expected to give to Saturn this very weakened Jupiter is only able to give, to hand over, the children themselves to superior Saturn, the planet traditionally associated with death? Would that make Jupiter actually malefic or be merely an indication of its tragic powerlessness?



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Yukionna



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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuriy, I agree, Mars is in very bad state and feral if I'm not mistaken, so not modified by any other planet. In 9 it doesn't have so much power to act, but it's still strong enough to cause trouble.

Kirk, tnx for posting the chart, i didn't know how to do this and felt a bit bad about just giving the data...

Your post raised some questions:

you say Saturn is out of sect. I know there are 2 concepts of sect, one being that Saturn as a day planet should be situated on the same side as the Sun. In this case it is, so it is in sect, even in Hayz, cause it's in a masculine sign as well. So that mitigates its malefic nature somewhat as far as I understand.
The other concept, which Paul pointed out in a discussion somewhere, is the one, where the ruling light determines which planets are in sect. Here, as it is a night chart, Moon is ruling light, so all the feminine planets become somewhat stronger. Saturn as a day planet is not among those, so can be called out of sect.

Is it the latter you're refering to?

I use the first one, so it even got me thinking that Saturn is not all bad. It's still a malefic, but it is in it's triplicity (and decan), and it's oriental. Still, it's strong to act and should cause strive and limitations. And then there's the aspect with its dispositor Jupiter. Which raises the second question.
Jupiter applies to Saturn. I don't really know who is influencing whom negatively. To me it seems like two malefics working on the same agenda. I don't think Jupiter hands responsibilty to Saturn, because it should be in Saturn's dignity or its own dignity to be able to do this. Isn't that this thing about pushing nature (planet a is in the dignity of planet b and applies to planet b) and pushing power (planet a is in its own dignity and applies to planet b)?

It's interesting to see that the part of children is on 2 Leo (AC + Jupiter - Saturn). Saturn aspects it closely, Jupiter doesn't. Which would underline your argument of Saturn being the malefic force here.

The last point is about your remark on Jupiter being powerless. Power to me is a planet's ability to act, and it certainly can do that. Its essential weakness just renders it 'powerless' to express its inherent good nature, which is probably what you mean. It's the 'actively' being malefic that you don't see in Jupiter. I tend to disagree. Morin's quote about an essentially weak benefic in a good house realizing the affairs of that house but by corrupted means does seem to apply here. He was a bad cooky professionally, highly successful yes, but not someone whose attention you wanted to have.

Yuki
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Tzadde



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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to some sources, a planet is in Hayz when it accomplishes the following circumstances:
- the chart has the planet's sect: Sun, Saturn and Jupiter in day charts; Moon, Venus and Mars in night charts; Mercury changes its sect according to various occurrences;
- the planet is in the Sign according to its sect: all masculine (Air and Fire) are diurnal, all feminine (Water and Earth) are nocturnal;
- it is mandatory to be above the horizon.

Winchell's chart, following these guidelines, has two planets in Hayz: Mars and Venus.
Jupiter is in a condition opposite to the Hayz: he is out of sect and in the Sign of opposite sect; this is called extra-conditionem or contra-Hayz (for it being above the horizon, while extra-conditionem happens regardless of the position to the horizon). Being in e.c. above the horizon is actually worse than being e.c. below the horizon. So Jupiter can act as a real malefic.

As you can see, Jupiter is angular (thus powerful), while Saturn is succedant (less powerful) and dependent on Jupiter. Therefore, Jupiter is superior to Saturn.

The Part of Children is in 1 Aquarius (Asc + Saturn - Jupiter), so we can see a direct relationship of children's condition to this Jupiter-Saturn aspect. In Leo, it would be ruled by Sun, which is in a strange relationship with Jupiter (no aspect) and Saturn (out of orb, but in Sign aspect), therefore Winchell's children should be in a better condition than the Part would be in Aquarius...

I read in his biography that two of his children died. The death of children is 8th Sign after PoC in Aquarius, hence Virgo, right where is Jupiter squaring and disposing ruler of PoC.
If we would take PoC in Leo, the 8th would be Pisces, and with Jupiter in detriment and without relationship with Sun (ruler of PoC), his children wouldn't have died... not in his lifetime, anyway.

I hope I make sense. If there is a direct relationship between significators, it should happen. If not, don't bother looking for nebulous or obscure techniques (like sextile to antiscion or something like that).
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuki wrote:

Quote:
you say Saturn is out of sect. I know there are 2 concepts of sect, one being that Saturn as a day planet should be situated on the same side as the Sun. In this case it is, so it is in sect, even in Hayz, cause it's in a masculine sign as well. So that mitigates its malefic nature somewhat as far as I understand.
The other concept, which Paul pointed out in a discussion somewhere, is the one, where the ruling light determines which planets are in sect. Here, as it is a night chart, Moon is ruling light, so all the feminine planets become somewhat stronger. Saturn as a day planet is not among those, so can be called out of sect.

Is it the latter you're refering to?

The latter is the most important one, and the one I was referring to. My understanding is that it's also the original condition of sect, with hemispheric placement in relation to the Sun and sect by sign coming later in astrology's development. First comes the basic 'Diurnal or nocturnal chart?'. You hear pretty often these days that the out of sect malefic is the one at highest risk of causing problems for the chart native. It seems to be one of those more recent rediscoveries in traditional astrology. Thus Mars in diurnal charts is the 'high-risk' malefic, with Saturn being the one for nocturnal charts. Likewise, for benefics Jupiter has the more help and moderation to offer diurnal charts, and Venus for nocturnal charts. Winchell's is a nocturnal chart, so immediately we should see what Saturn is up to.


Quote:
The last point is about your remark on Jupiter being powerless. Power to me is a planet's ability to act, and it certainly can do that. Its essential weakness just renders it 'powerless' to express its inherent good nature, which is probably what you mean. It's the 'actively' being malefic that you don't see in Jupiter. I tend to disagree. Morin's quote about an essentially weak benefic in a good house realizing the affairs of that house but by corrupted means does seem to apply here.

Well, I have to admit I've never been on firm ground with this 'quantity and quality' thing. When do factors determine how much strength and planet has and when do they determine the kind of strength it has – for good or ill? Maybe I need to read Morin. But in this chart Jupiter is in detriment, peregrine, out of sect in all 3 ways: by chart (it's a nocturnal chart); by placement (in the other hemisphere in relation to the Sun); and by sign. It's occidental of the Sun, whereas the superior planets are strongest when oriental. It's retrograde and moving slowly, with nearly 3 full weeks left before SD. And there's that partile square to out of sect (by chart) malefic, Saturn. The only good the going for Jupiter that I can see is its 11th house placement. Maybe that's enough to say it can act, but to me this is a scared, unsure, confused, befuddled Jupiter. A high anxiety Jupiter. I really can't see it having much confidence to act. To me this Jupiter just sort of stands there and pees his pants. Such a Jupiter is going to do as Saturn says. But there could be things I'm missing. Confused


Quote:
He was a bad cooky professionally, highly successful yes, but not someone whose attention you wanted to have.

Which I attribute to Mars – the ASC ruler. Cardinal Mars in Cancer got him out there in the world. I don't see Mars as being in such a bad state, but as being a divisive dude with a fair amount of power. Dignity by triplicity prevents being peregrine – and thus gives more focus. It's in sect by chart, placement and sign. It's the in-sect malefic, so there's a good chance of it working for the native rather than against him – or, with all factors considered, at least both. I don't see the cadent 9th house as particularly weak. Could the house that is the joy of the Sun really be all that weak? Perhaps it is regarding 10th house matters – the angle from which it derives its cadent condition. But the 9th trines the ASC, as does Mars by sign and degree. Cardinal Cancer can be a pretty nasty sign that likes to kick up some dust. This Mars, as ASC ruler in the house of publishing and broadcasting, fits the man very well.
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Tzadde,

Quote:
I read in his biography that two of his children died. The death of children is 8th Sign after PoC in Aquarius, hence Virgo, right where is Jupiter squaring and disposing ruler of PoC.
If we would take PoC in Leo, the 8th would be Pisces, and with Jupiter in detriment and without relationship with Sun (ruler of PoC), his children wouldn't have died... not in his lifetime, anyway.

I hope I make sense. If there is a direct relationship between significators, it should happen. If not, don't bother looking for nebulous or obscure techniques (like sextile to antiscion or something like that).

Saturn, the out of sect malefic, is in a partile square to Jupiter, the lord of the house of children. Isn't that plenty? I haven't plunged into the lots yet, even though I often read that I should. They seem too contrived to me. What you've presented seems, well, horribly obscure. Confused
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Tzadde



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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Saturn, the out of sect malefic, is in a partile square to Jupiter, the lord of the house of children. Isn't that plenty?

It is just one testimony. Many astrologers said there should be at least three testimonies for a situation to happen. I feel good with only two, though.

Kirk wrote:
I haven't plunged into the lots yet, even though I often read that I should. They seem too contrived to me. What you've presented seems, well, horribly obscure. Confused

You should plunge into the lots. They are very useful. Extraordinarily useful. Just like "vargas" or "yogas" in Vedic astrology.

So the Arab astrologers (from the early Medieval Age) would strongly disagree with you. They used the lots as often as the planets and the Houses.
Hermes Trismegistus (according to the legend) brought the Astrology from the skies to the people living on Earth, so they could understand the stars. Among his lessons were the seven Hermetic lots, based on the relationship of the Soli-Lunar Parts (of Fortune and of Spirit) with the planets (the Fortunes are mixed with Part of Spirit, the Infortunes with Part of Fortune)... The Arabs knew about these Parts and they wanted to develop this field, but they over-did them. If you pick the relevant lots and use them rationally, there should be no problem using them.

So no, these lots weren't contrived by a bit. There is a reason behind them: the planets, sometimes, have too many significations, so you have to pick them apart by using something that uses the same signification of both planets: for example, the part of marriage is used by mixing Asc (the native), Venus (love, marriage) and Saturn (longtime / longterm commitments). Got it?

Kirk, I have given an example of what is obscure to me. You can't compare the example with my previous post.
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lots, or parts, go back to the beginnings of western horoscopic astrology. Before the medieval Arabic astrologers the Hellenistic astrologers used lots extensively. So I've read. But they just haven't resonated with me - I can't even get myself to use the Lot of Fortune. I see much more clearly now that techniques are secondary. Primary is the personal resonance and involvement. That's what produces the vision. (However, there is still plenty of room for argument as to why I think much modern astrology is very iffy and often close to useless. Laughing ) For me the immediacy of the natural world takes several steps to the background when one starts coming up with lots or parts using in-the-head mathematical computations. They are too detached from the world around us. So I believe.

But that being said - I may change and start using the few essential lots in the future. I don't see much need to rush into it, though.
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Tzadde



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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
The lots, or parts, go back to the beginnings of western horoscopic astrology. Before the medieval Arabic astrologers the Hellenistic astrologers used lots extensively. So I've read.

That's true. Thanks for backing up what I have previously posted. So the Hellenistic astrologers would have disagreed with you, too... See, it's like 3 (Greeks, Arabs and me) versus 1 (you).

Kirk wrote:
But they just haven't resonated with me - I can't even get myself to use the Lot of Fortune. ["blah, blah"]

But that being said - I may change and start using the few essential lots in the future. I don't see much need to rush into it, though.

Nobody urges you to use them, I think it is better if you don't use them at all. This way everyone feels good. You, me and the old ones.
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Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
Kirk wrote:
The lots, or parts, go back to the beginnings of western horoscopic astrology. Before the medieval Arabic astrologers the Hellenistic astrologers used lots extensively. So I've read.

That's true. Thanks for backing up what I have previously posted. So the Hellenistic astrologers would have disagreed with you, too... See, it's like 3 (Greeks, Arabs and me) versus 1 (you).

Kirk wrote:
But they just haven't resonated with me - I can't even get myself to use the Lot of Fortune. ["blah, blah"]

But that being said - I may change and start using the few essential lots in the future. I don't see much need to rush into it, though.

Nobody urges you to use them, I think it is better if you don't use them at all. This way everyone feels good. You, me and the old ones.


Please clarify the "blah, blah" you added to my quoted passage.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
According to some sources, a planet is in Hayz when it accomplishes the following circumstances:
- the chart has the planet's sect: Sun, Saturn and Jupiter in day charts; Moon, Venus and Mars in night charts; Mercury changes its sect according to various occurrences;
- the planet is in the Sign according to its sect: all masculine (Air and Fire) are diurnal, all feminine (Water and Earth) are nocturnal;
- it is mandatory to be above the horizon.


Which sources do you use Tsadde? I have read the following in Benjamin Dykes' book Introductions to traditional astrology Abu Ma'shar & al-qabisi, where they use the word suitablity or domain to describe hayyiz:

from abbreviation of the introduction by Abu Ma'shar III.3
Suitability is if a masculine planet were above the earth by day (but below the earth by night) and in a masculine sign, but a feminine planet below the earth by day (but above the earth by night) - with Mars alone being excepted, since he, though he is male, is still nocturnal.

There's nothing in that quote that suggests that a planet has to be above the earth to be considered in its domain or Hayz.

Quote:

The Part of Children is in 1 Aquarius (Asc + Saturn - Jupiter), so we can see a direct relationship of children's condition to this Jupiter-Saturn aspect. In Leo, it would be ruled by Sun, which is in a strange relationship with Jupiter (no aspect) and Saturn (out of orb, but in Sign aspect), therefore Winchell's children should be in a better condition than the Part would be in Aquarius...


You have a point. I red a bit on the part of children in Zoller's course, and although he says that by night the formula must be reversed, he also writes that when the part is in a sterile sign such as Leo, then there will be no children. In a 'rather fruitful' sign such as Aquarius the native will have few children. So that seems to be in accordance with your argument.

I don't use the parts much yet, only for additional information, when sth isn't clear, or if things seem to contradict each other.

Yuki
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Yukionna



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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk,

Kirk wrote:

You hear pretty often these days that the out of sect malefic is the one at highest risk of causing problems for the chart native. It seems to be one of those more recent rediscoveries in traditional astrology.


Well, so far for me the later method seems to work out, but I'll keep the other one in mind and experiment with it. Will see...


Quote:

Well, I have to admit I've never been on firm ground with this 'quantity and quality' thing. When do factors determine how much strength and planet has and when do they determine the kind of strength it has – for good or ill?


I struggle with these concepts still too. The house position is one thing, they seem to give the planet its power to act, whereas the sign position gives the planet its quality. So if we go by its position in the 10th, Jupiter can act. It's angular, it has muscles, lots of them. Which is't good when its quality is bad, because nothing good comes from that. But I'm sure you know all that.
For me other stuff is difficult. Such as: retrogradation, phase, sect and all that. How does that determine how 'good/bad' and with how much power a planet will be able to act. How is Jupiter weakened by being retrograde, does it take away even more of its beneficial quality (little as it has anyhow), or does it take away its power to act. Or both?

Quote:

Maybe that's enough to say it can act, but to me this is a scared, unsure, confused, befuddled Jupiter. A high anxiety Jupiter. I really can't see it having much confidence to act. To me this Jupiter just sort of stands there and pees his pants. Such a Jupiter is going to do as Saturn says. But there could be things I'm missing. Confused


I don't know about scared, but it should act in an untypical Jupiter way. Selfconfidence turns into arrogance, expansion into bullying, religion into bigotry etc. Kind of corrupted. It is not the significator of Winchell himself as it isn't part of the AC, but it aspects the AC, therefore modifying it, and I guess that it strongly and negatively describes his professional life.

I agree with what you say about Mars and the 9th.. I didn't know 9 was the house of publishing, that really fits in well.

Yuki
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Tzadde



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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Which sources do you use Tsadde?
[...]
There's nothing in that quote that suggests that a planet has to be above the earth to be considered in its domain or Hayz.


Robert Hand:
Quote:
To see the influence of sect we must look at 3 aspects:

1. If the chart is diurnal or nocturnal and what planets corresponds.
2. The sect of signs (signs can also be diurnal or nocturnal) and the planets that correspond.
3. The nature of placement. For example, a planet is placed diurnally when is above the horizon in the daytime or below at night.

If a planet is in accordance with all these 3 aspects then is in a very powerful position, named Hayz.


Douglas Noblehorse:
Quote:
Building on the sect definition of the chart as diurnal or nocturnal, one must also consider each planet’s placement by hemisphere as defined by the Ascendant/Descendant axis - and also each planet’s placement by sign. The upper hemisphere in a diurnal chart (as defined by the Sun above the horizon) is diurnal, whereas the lower hemisphere is nocturnal. In a nocturnal chart (with the Sun below the horizon), the upper hemisphere is nocturnal and the lower hemisphere diurnal.

So, planets above the horizon in a diurnal chart are “placed” diurnally, even if they may be nocturnal planets. Below the horizon, they are nocturnal by placement. For example, Saturn may be below the horizon - and so is a diurnal planet in a diurnal chart “placed” nocturnally. This would interfere with Saturn’s expression a bit more than if Saturn were above the horizon in this chart. Conversely, the Moon in this chart might be above the horizon, and so it is a nocturnal planet in a diurnal chart “placed” diurnally. This would further inhibit this particular Moon’s expression - already diminished by being out of sect.

Add to that you must also consider the sign each planet is in - with masculine signs (Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius, Aquarius) being diurnal, and feminine signs (Taurus, Cancer, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces) being nocturnal. This colors each planet even further. So you have four considerations - the sect of the chart, the natural sect of the planet, the sect of the planet’s hemisphere (or house) placement and the sect of the planet’s sign placement. When all four sects agree, the planet is considered to be in hayz - a very positive, powerful condition. For example, the Sun in Aries in the 10th house (which naturally, is a daytime chart) is in hayz, because it’s a diurnal planet in a diurnal chart, placed in a diurnal house in a masculine, and therefore diurnal sign.

Conversely, the Moon in Scorpio in the 11th house would also be in hayz - but only if the native were born at night, with the Sun below the horizon.


Curtis Manwaring:
Quote:
There are 2 more ways that a planet can be in sect other than it just being a diurnal or nocturnal birth chart. A planet can be in it's own light or it can be in it's own similitude. If a diurnal chart then Saturn and Jupiter are in it's own light if they are above the horizon with the Sun, and the Moon, Venus and Mars are also as long as they are below the horizon. If a nocturnal chart then the Moon, Venus and Mars should be above the horizon and Jupiter and Saturn should be below in order to say they are in their own light.

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Paul
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
The other concept, which Paul pointed out in a discussion somewhere, is the one, where the ruling light determines which planets are in sect. Here, as it is a night chart, Moon is ruling light, so all the feminine planets become somewhat stronger. Saturn as a day planet is not among those, so can be called out of sect.


Right one tiny clarification, just for others' benefit, it's the nocturnal planets rather than just the feminine ones, obviously Mars isn't a feminine planet but is still a nocturnal planet.

I know you knew this already but just to be really precise in case someone else gets confused!
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

It looks like it's the out of sect Saturn reflecting the problem. But what about the fact that Jupiter disposits Saturn? Might that mean that instead of the usual assistance Jupiter would be expected to give to Saturn this very weakened Jupiter is only able to give, to hand over, the children themselves to superior Saturn, the planet traditionally associated with death? Would that make Jupiter actually malefic or be merely an indication of its tragic powerlessness?


Apologies if this has already been said (am still catching up on the posts), and I'm not even sure who this guy is, but I would think that the problem is that Jupiter is a qualitatively weak planet here and is afflicted by the partile aspect to Saturn. You mentioned what of Jupiter disposing of Saturn, well really what this means is that we have a weak planet (jupiter) receiving an out of sect malefic - so opening itself up to its malice essentially. This occurring by square surely does not help matters. I think from what Yuki mentioned this would seem to be relevant.

Receiving an out of sect malefic by square is probably going to be a bit hazardous anyway I would think.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuki,

Quote:
I don't know about scared, but it should act in an untypical Jupiter way. Selfconfidence turns into arrogance, expansion into bullying, religion into bigotry etc. Kind of corrupted. It is not the significator of Winchell himself as it isn't part of the AC, but it aspects the AC, therefore modifying it, and I guess that it strongly and negatively describes his professional life.

I agree with what you say about Mars and the 9th.. I didn't know 9 was the house of publishing, that really fits in well.

Sometimes we overlook the simplest things. Rolling Eyes I wasn't associating Jupiter with him personally but as you wrote, it aspects the ASC so it definitely has its part in describing him. I was focusing on Mars as the ASC ruler. I see a lot of the bullying, arrogance, and divisiveness coming from Mars.

I do see it as a scared Jupiter. Scared as in too nervous and indecisive to act confidently. But as for Winchell himself that strong Mars in Cardinal Cancer got him going – belligerently and divisively.


Yes, the 9th is the house of publishing. Books are signified there. Televisions and radios are usually listed as 3rd house things, but I came to the conclusion some years back that broadcasting itself – the activity of 'casting abroad' information is 9th house. It does make sense: If you write your manuscript in the 3rd house and publish it as a book in the 9th, then you can write your script in the 3rd house and broadcast it in the 9th.

There's the old idea that the houses are polarities and opposing houses can share significations. Morin, again. So when it comes to media broadcasting the 3rd and 9th are probably both valid. I find that usually the opposing houses of a polarity retain their distinctions pretty strongly, but this 3/9 and broadcasting thing seems to work for both houses. Same for forums and forum posting: I've long seen both 3 & 9 active and prominent.
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