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The benefic Jupiter
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favro



Joined: 29 Mar 2010
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Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:
Of course, the planet can act as benefic to other houses than the 1st, for example, the 10th trigons the 6th, so the sixth favors the 10th. But otherwise, in a radical chart, 6th, 8th and 12th are mostly malefic houses, therefore, anything inside it is mostly malefic as well.


I will also be using Whole Sign Houses in my questions.

Tell me PFN how can a planet in the 6th which has become a malefic act as a benefic when it aspects planets in the 10th? Could it also be a benefic to planets in the 2nd?

How about planets in the 8 & 12, aren't they favoring the 4th?

favro


Last edited by favro on Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is one of the feel cases that I have a rule set in stone for myself. 100% of the times, a planet inside 6th, 8th or 12th, be it dignified or not, be it a benefic or not, if it is whole signs we talk about, will always act primarily as a malefic.

. . . in a radical chart, 6th, 8th and 12th are mostly malefic houses, therefore, anything inside it is mostly malefic as well.

. . . If the planet is essentially malefic, and has dignity, being inside these 3 malefic houses, then things could get really nasty for the native, or better put, to the matters of the 1st house, which is, suposedly, the most important region in a given chart.


I think it's critical to keep in mind the relationship of 6,8 and 12 to the ASC, the lack of aspect to it. As you wrote, those houses do aspect the 4/10 axis, harmoniously, so there is some good to be had from them – and houses 4 & 10 are very important houses. However, I could never get myself to say that planets located within houses 6, 8, & 12 would “always act primarily as a malefic” 100% of the time. That's far too severe and unworkable for me. I would feel far more comfortable with a toned down 'They act primarily as malefics regarding the ASC'. But I'm talking about natal astrology here. In horary it probably is closer to what you say. Horary necessarily doesn't have the same degree of flexibility that natal astrology has – unless we prefer to approach natal astrology as instruction manuals for automatons.

I do still feel some confusion and uncertainty in distinguishing between a planet being malefic and simply being unable to produce the positive things it has to offer. When is Jupiter truly a trouble-maker, as I believe it surely can be, and when is it simply too weak or lost to be able to get the person to look forward positively, act creatively and see with a more openly inclusive view? If Jupiter in 6, 8, or 12 is too weak to furnish some forward-looking optimism is its lack of performance enough to call it malefic? And if it trines the 10th house – the house of praxis and action in the world – from the 6th, or sextiles it from the 12th, isn't it being helpful to the chart native? Maybe we stress the importance of the ASC too much, too generally. Jupiter in 6 may not be of much help to the 1st house health, vitality, and expression of the native, but it sure would seem able to give the person some breaks in activities, career, and social standing – secondary matters compared to health and vitality, but right up there near the top of concerns for most people. The powers of Jupiter being dependent, of course, on many other things such as sect, phase and essential dignity. In any case, I would find your stony rule to get in the way. Smile


Quote:

. . . in a radical chart, 6th, 8th and 12th are mostly malefic houses . . .

I used to think so, but now I think that has become too easy to say and is used unthinkingly in natal work. I guess I would word it differently now – but don't know yet how to put it. “Mostly” seems far too strong and simplistic. At least, 'in relation to the ASC and its concerns' should be added. Maybe it works if we are thinking specifically of the health and expression of the chart native. I now don't view the natal chart as the chart of the person, but of the person and his or her possessions, circumstances and environment. My natal chart is not just about 'Me'. Houses 6,8, and 12 might be malefic regarding the person and yet rather helpful regarding his or her possessions, circumstances and environment.



Edited to add: I hadn't noticed favro's post where some of my concerns were already addressed.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to mostly agree with you Kirk, although I think some would really be eluded by extreme simplifications like the one I put forth in my last post. Sorry for that.

The AsC is the most important section of the chart regarding the native, both for his body as to his soul. That is why we always consider the chart taking its perspective, which we call the radical chart. But in truth, it is just a perspective among others possible. Of course a person is not only the AsC, but the AsC sustains the only thing that taken out, condemns one to vanish into memory, in this realm at least: life itself.

About the planets turning up malefic or not in a malefic house, I can not be sure how to approach this, but I'll try: this is a very abstract discussion, but is a foundation of astrology, the division between malefics and benefics, and neutrals inbetween.

We say that Venus and Jupiter are benefics because they portend principles that we understand as desirable to permeate one's life. Venus carry the idea of conjunction and Jupiter of expansion. Finally, they carry these in moderation, because of their relation to the Sun giving them moderate heat and moisture. It is this moderation that allows them to be called benefics, without it, Jupiter fattens up beyond limits, instead of simply growing and developing at a moderate pace, as we would desire, and Venus start to develop her less respected side. Still, the benefics failures are more acceptable than those, of say, Mars, that through his "separation principle", may be unruly at it's best, or mad/deranged at it's worst.

So, while Jupiter and Venus leans more toward good than not, we can not say that they are wholesome good, benefics are just farther away from evil. True good is only God, and perfection is divine. So, Jupiter can do evil if he gets nasty enough, and for him to get nasty all that we need is a bad position, a lack of dignity and a bad influence.

At last, an example of 6th helping 10th in a chart:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Roosevelt,_Franklin_D.

Roosevelt has Mercury in 6th, close to the MC degree. While Mercury rules the 6th (triplicity), alongside Saturn (rulership) showing a strong disease overtaking the body of the native (testimony also strenghtened by the position of the AsC ruler in a place of enmity to himself, disconected from the place of vitality, the 6th) he still ascended to power. Roosevelt would never be president if he was not who he was, and he would never be who he was if he had never been struck by polio. The 10th fed on the light of the 6th, and while the 1st suffered, his reputation could rise.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with PFN that a planet in aversion (by whole sign aspect) to a particular place will act in a more malefic nature toward that place.

However what I wanted to comment on was that actually traditionally astrologers did recognise that benefics out of sect or in the places of their fall or detriment did act more malefically. At the same time malefics in sect and dignity were more benefic.

I'll get some quotes if necessary but just wanted to point this out.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just finished reading bonattis 146 considerations.. consideration 110 is interesting in connection with this discussion on jupiter as a possible malefic influence which someone here might like to explain if they feel so inclined.

"the 110th consideration is that you look to see in nativities and in universal questions, whether the ascendant is scorpio: because he whose ascendant it was, will not have fortune(good luck) in the roman church, on account of cancer, the exaltation of jupiter, who naturally signifies clerics, which will then be the 9th house, which signifies the church; and jupiter is the enemy of mars, who is the lord of the ascendant."

it would seem there are more creative ways to find a way where jupiter isn't necessarily a good thing, at least from bonattis pov.. if anyone can unravel the logic of this - feel free. i will post this in the bonatti thread i started too as it relates.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PFN,

Thanks for the post.

Quote:
So, Jupiter can do evil if he gets nasty enough, and for him to get nasty all that we need is a bad position, a lack of dignity and a bad influence.


I'm still unsure how many factors it takes for Jupiter to cross over from being a weak and ineffective benefic to being an outright malefic.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Paul:
Quote:
. . . actually traditionally astrologers did recognise that benefics out of sect or in the places of their fall or detriment did act more malefically.

I would like some of those quotes from old sources. What I usually hear is that out of sect benefics just can't offer much of the good stuff. But that doesn't make them actually malefic. This is more of that confusion I see so often.
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
From Paul:
Quote:
. . . actually traditionally astrologers did recognise that benefics out of sect or in the places of their fall or detriment did act more malefically.

I would like some of those quotes from old sources. What I usually hear is that out of sect benefics just can't offer much of the good stuff. But that doesn't make them actually malefic. This is more of that confusion I see so often.


I've been away from home very late the last few days so haven't been able to get at my books. I'm home briefly this evening and then away for the weekend so if I get time later I'll take some quotes.

But in the meantime if you have access to Sahl's Fifty Judgements, I quickly glanced at it last night and Judgement 26 outlines that malefics in dignity have their malice mitigated and absolutely restrained. I know of some other examples that are much more straightforward than this passage though so I will try and find them, I just can't remember where I read them.

Valens mentions that malefics in sect behave better as well. There may be some room for debate that it is the cast that it is more complex than JUST the sect of the planet but you will hopefully get the idea that there is some weight to the premise:

Vettius Valens, Anthologies, trans by Mark Riley:
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

Book I, pg2
Quote:
The benefic stars which are appropriately and favorably situated bring about their proper effects according to their own nature and the nature of their sign, with the aspects and conjunctions of each star
being blended. If however they are unfavorably situated, they are indicative of reversals. In the same way even the malefic stars, when they are operative in appropriate places in their own sect, are bestowers of good and indicative of the greatest positions and success; when they are inoperative, they bring about disasters
and accusations.


(Book II, pg26)
Quote:
But if
these stars happen to be configured properly, in their own sects, they are actively positive. As a result, these stars are not to be considered malefics in all cases; they can be bestowers of good. Particularly if Saturn (for day births) has a favorable relationship with the houseruler and has Jupiter and the sun in aspect, it then makes men wealthy, famous, profiting from legacies, lords of estates and slaves, guardians and
supervisors of others' affairs. For night births, however, if Saturn is /59K/ configured well and has a
relationship with the houseruler, it will also cause the loss of what was gained, reduction in rank, and infamy. Let the same considerations be true for Mars: for night births it grants leadership, generalship,
public commands of the masses; for day births (if Mars is in operative places), it brings about the previously /58P/ mentioned circumstances, but it then turns them into reversals, fears, and oppositions; it makes leadership subject to factionalism and terror. It brings attacks of enemies and uprisings of the mob, famines and p lagues on cities, assaults, fires, dangerous crises.
In the same way the benefics will take on the character of malefics whenever they are situated badly as houserulers. If they happen to be at angles while their houseruler just precedes an angle, their ability to do
good will be weakened. In any type <of> it will be necessary to examine how the houseruler of the houseruler is situated and what stars it has in aspect. If the overall houseruler is unfavorably situated, but its ruler <ruler> is configured well, then the native will have help and a basis of livelihood and rank proportional to the position of the star.


Book VII, pg130
Quote:
Often oppositions or squares of malefics do no harm at all, but instead are beneficial because they are in their proper places, have a benefic in aspect or have a distribution in their own sect



There are other examples which are more specific but which we can infer from that the malefics in sect, and in their 'proper places' (ie in dignity) tend toward greater benefice. But it's difficult to mine quotes like this out of context as often so much is given by way of example.

I'll get more quotes because there are some which are very explicit, like something like "But the malefics in their own dignity act like benefics, this should always be remembered" or something. Ironically I'm trying to remember where I read this.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that Morin has rather outspoken ideas about this subject, I'll try and post some quotes later on.

However the above mentioned argument, that those planets in 6, 8, or 12 may not be good for the native, due to being in aversion to the Acs does make sense, I would just not state it that strongly. I feel that they are more or less out of control and therefore can cause difficulties, but it depends on their essential strength.
(I wonder if reflection might also help some. Eg Jupiter in 6 being in applicative aspect with a planet that can see the Ac and acts as intermediate. It could suggest that the native becomes conscious of the planet in the 6th house that way and has more control over what it does and doesn't do.)

If I remember correctly, according to Robert Zoller, in order for a benefic to become an accidental malefic, it has to be in a difficult house, of weak esse and it must be in an afflicting aspect with a malefic.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Astrologia Gallica Book 21 by Morin:

Pages 58 till 60, and page 63
Quote:
In general, a benefic planet in good celestial state located in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, ninth, tenth or eleventh house...grants the good things of that house, and the results will be real, abundant, lasting, and unattended by difficulties.

However, a benefic in a fortunate house in a state which is adverse by sign or through aspect either grants nothing, or grants things attended by difficulties or through evil means, or which are at best scanty, spurious, unreliable, or of little use.

A benefic in a good celestial state in the unfortunate houses..prevents or mitigates the evil of these houses, and this is also true for the seventh which through the meaning of litigations and open enemies attributed to it is sometimes evil.
So, Jupiter in the 12th ...makes the native subject to few diseases and even those will be easy to cure; and this planet will free the native from prison...

But a benefic in adverse celestial state, in the 12th or 8th house or ruler of one of these houses, will not prevent disease and may even cause serious ones, nor will it prevent a violent death, especially if this is shown in some other way.

And so, a benefic in good celestial state and in a fortunate house will grant the good things of that house with ease and in abundance; in an unfortunate house it will free the native from the things signified by that house, or will ultimately grant the good which is hoped will issue from the situation, such as a recovery from illness, release from prison, victory over one's enemies.
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

You wrote about malefics turning benefic. To me that's not the same as a benefic turning malefic – let's call it a benefic becoming perverted. A malefic becoming benefic does seem to be a very possible result of the weakening of maleficence. It's a removal of the malefic quality. If that contributes to a smoother and more cooperative flow for manifestation then ultimately it can indeed be called benefic. But for a benefic to become malefic seems much stronger, it's not not simply the elimination of benefic qualities. It's more of an active corruption causing harm and hindrance.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

It's odd. The whole point of my resuscitating this thread was to express the view that Jupiter can be malefic and destructive, but I'm lost in not being able to determine what it takes for that to happen. I can in no way see Jupiter in 6, 8, or 12 being enough to make it malefic. As has been mentioned, it takes more harmful factors to make that happen. I just don't know how many factors, and which ones, it takes to cross over from a weak and ineffective Jupiter to an actually malefic Jupiter. I guess I have a lot more to learn. The terms malefic and benefic seem to be traps that too easily catch a person in 'box' thinking. It's not that I find them too morally judgmental. Rather, they too easily become limiting labels that are hard get away from or switch when chart factors call for it. It's in the art of it all, I suppose. And I may be hung up on something as basic as the difference between 'good' and 'bad'. Oh dear.

Another thing: When it comes to the influence of a negative aspect from a malefic wouldn't astrology traditionally rule out Mars regarding Jupiter? The more superior planet was always said to affect the less superior. Mars is 'beneath' Jupiter and thus has little power over it. Saturn is the one to squelch or pervert Jupiter. Venus is the benefic that can be negatively influenced by Mars.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Yukionna,

Thank you for the Morin quote. I have the book. It just sits there. I probably should give it some exercise. To be honest, I've been having some pretty strong anti-astrology feelings for some time now. Morin is a good example of the sort of characters in the astrological world that I've had enough of.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kurt,

Quote:
To be honest, I've been having some pretty strong anti-astrology feelings for some time now. Morin is a good example of the sort of characters in the astrological world that I've had enough of.



Laughing Well, I think I can understand that, like I said, he's pretty outspoken und very convinced of what he says. I quite like him for that, but don't know how I'll feel about it after 10 years or so.
I would be interested though what it is that irritates you, could you elaborate a little?

Yuki
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Hi Kurt,

Quote:
To be honest, I've been having some pretty strong anti-astrology feelings for some time now. Morin is a good example of the sort of characters in the astrological world that I've had enough of.



Laughing Well, I think I can understand that, like I said, he's pretty outspoken und very convinced of what he says. I quite like him for that, but don't know how I'll feel about it after 10 years or so.
I would be interested though what it is that irritates you, could you elaborate a little?

Yuki


Embarassed

I was just venting. I shouldn't do that.

I should also be more accurate: I've been feeling more anti-astrologers than anti-astrology. And what really, really gets me going are the current-day astrologers and astrology students who dabble in simplistic 'psychology' as, ultimately, their primary concern, with astrology serving as just a tool to pick apart and explain themselves and everyone else. (I get in a huff over these things from time to time. Secret )

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with Morin. Confused
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Yukionna



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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been looking for a chart that might serve as example for a Jupiter gone malefic, and here's one that could illustrate that:
Walter Winchell
07.04.1897
19:30 New York
It's Rodden Rating A.

I searched for Saturn-Jupiter tension, as Kirk's remark on Jupiter not being able to be affected by Mars due to this superiority theme, got me thinking that he might be right about that.

So here's a Jupiter that couldn't be in worse state:
in detriment, retrograde, slow, out of sect, occidental and in square with Saturn. In fact, it's so weak, it doesn't really need the square with Saturn to become malefic. (I'm actually not just a little smug about finding such a bad-ass Jupiter)
It's accidentally strong in 10, so it can act.

Jupiter rules the 5th house of children. He had 2 biological and one adopted child. The latter died of pneumonia at the age of nine, his daughter spent a lot of time in psychiatric hospitals and his son committed suicide.

On the other hand, Jupiter is ruler of 10 by position, and Winchell was quite successful and famous, although more feared than loved, and his success came at the expense of other people, whose secrets he exposed, making their lives difficult. His success might also be explained by the exalted Sun in 6. It's ruler of the house in the house and can therefore realize the affairs of that house.
He ended his career after his son's death.
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Yuriy



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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in this chart Mars shouldn't be disregarded, Jupiter alone might not be so malefic toward children (5th ruler).
Mars ruler of watery triplicity (5th house) in nocturnal chart, detriment in fall in Cancer, ruling AC, but not peregrine (own triplicity), so can act.
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