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The benefic Jupiter
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ojhawool



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 9

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: The benefic Jupiter Reply with quote

It is generally understood that jupiter is all time benific then why results are different in Sag and pcs?
ojhawool
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every planet has a day sign and a night sign. In addition every planet (except the Sun and Moon) is either day or night. Basically if you have a day planet, the day sign is more "comfortable" than a night sign, but it's still a good sign for it. The exception is Saturn and Mars where this rule is switched so that the maleficness (is that a word? Well it is now) is lessened.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was poking around the site, in the mood to post something. Since I couldn't think of anything fresh and interesting to start a thread about, I decided to go way back and see what I could find. The simple thread topic of “The benefic Jupiter” caught my eye. There's something I can work with. The opening sentence, “It is generally understood that Jupiter is all time benific [sic]. . .”, was enough to get me going. I ended up with a topic I've considered for a long time: Regarding Jupiter we are left to fall back on 'Well, it's a benefic, you know'.

Now maybe we aren't really always told that Jupiter is always a benefic, but it seems to come awfully close. One gets the feeling that Jupiter can seldom do any wrong – especially among traditionalist astrologers. I've often been critical of 'modern' astrology, but in working with Jupiter I think those practitioners have surpassed the tradition-based ones in considering Jupiter's propensity to excess and the harm it causes. In some respects they seem to me to work with Jupiter much more successfully in natal charts. I do feel that Jupiter's traditional quality of moderation is over-blown and applied too automatically to the point of being treated as formula. Most commonly, again, among traditionalist astrologers. Somewhere around these parts is a thread about the transits of Jupiter. In it we discussed bad or unfortunate things happening during a Jupiter transit. In that thread and other discussions there's often a sense of bewilderment among those who post, as if Jupiter just isn't supposed to be involved in such things. Since then I've come across many more such occasions in various charts and lives where Jupiter is right there and active during bad times, especially concerning health issues and accidents. Accidents are poor examples of moderation. I do feel we are often being taught incorrectly and are left with an astrological Santa Claus who could never do any harm and who is too jolly to darken our day.

As most of us are probably aware, there are two traditional benefic planets: Jupiter and Venus. The funny thing is (well, it's not very funny when you think about it), masculine Jupiter is much more easily forgiven than is feminine Venus. She is much more frequently treated astrologically as a selfish wanton tart than Jupiter is seen as a pompous, greedy or careless jerk. It looks like basic prejudice and gender bias is routinely and unthinkingly applied through traditional formulaic usage. Jupiter = Benefic. Again, this is particularly common among the traditionalist crowd – but of course there are those who treat Jupiter much more realistically and with less leniency. I wish they would speak a little louder.

This has been banging around in my head for some time now, along with a fair amount of assorted trivia. For myself, I have needed to strongly modify any excessively simple traditional tags of 'benefic' and 'moderation' regarding Jupiter. But 'simple' describes very well how Jupiter has been seen astrologically. Compared to the other planets there's so often not much to be said about Jupiter. It gives the definite impression of being a rather boring planet. Mars, Saturn, Venus, naughty little Mercury – those are easy to talk about. Benefic and moderate Jupiter is so dull. Drab, really. You can see it in forum discussions. The color lies with the other planets. The fact is, Jupiter is not understood. That's the fate of those poor guys who can only do nice things, and never to excess.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I a toy of fate? I just noticed that I wrote that post during the Jupiter hour for my location, having posted it 11 minutes before the hour of Mars. Also, Moon is separating from conjunct Jupiter and next applying to conjoin Venus, with a sextile to Uranus in the interim. Using Placidus, that Moon-Venus-Jupiter combo is in the 9th house, the place to find astrology. Am I a mere instrument, a pawn chosen to bring Uranian upset to the benefics? It gets kind of creepy sometimes. Oh well, it gave me something to do.
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard some traditional astrologer's opinion that Jupiter in Sagittarius in retro state isn't good at all. That came from astrologer's practice.
She gave some example of native's years during Jupiter's ferdaria(mostly 20s years of life in nocturnal chart) and argumentation for whole set of unfortunate events was the Jupiter's retrograde status in natal chart.
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are situations in which Jupiter can be considered an accidental malefic; one of them is mentioned by Yuriy above. The other ones I can think of:
- in Capricorn, Virgo or Gemini (especially angular and in nocturnal charts);
- in 6th, 8th or 12th in any essential dignity (from triplicity up);
- in extra-conditionem (especially above the horizon, which is worse than below: in night chart and in nocturnal Sign);
- peregrine and in square or opposition (without reception) with any malefic, but if you find him in his or Venus' terms, he can resist this affliction; for example, Jupiter in Aquarius is malefic, especially in opposition with Mars, but if he is in own terms, then he is benefic and can dissolve Mars' attempt to vitiate him.
- retrograde is never good for any planet, be it in domicile or not.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't imagine many knowledgeable astrologers saying that Jupiter in Capricorn, Virgo or Gemini is malefic. Weak, perhaps, or unable to perform at its best. But not actually malefic. The same with Jupiter in 6, 8, or 12. Is it truly malefic in those houses? Likewise, retrograde may not be “good” for a planet, but does that make Jupiter retrograde truly malefic?

I do want to mention again that I think Jupiter is poorly understood – isn't given the chance to be understood. It has been limited by being treated as the 'good times' planet and isn't allowed to be one of the planetary gang. It seems to serve as some sort of God stand in. You know – nice, helpful, and understanding. And as Sunday school God is really pretty cloyingly sweet, so, commonly, is astrological Jupiter.
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
I can't imagine many knowledgeable astrologers saying that Jupiter in Capricorn, Virgo or Gemini is malefic. Weak, perhaps, or unable to perform at its best. But not actually malefic. The same with Jupiter in 6, 8, or 12. Is it truly malefic in those houses? Likewise, retrograde may not be “good” for a planet, but does that make Jupiter retrograde truly malefic?

I do want to mention again that I think Jupiter is poorly understood – isn't given the chance to be understood. It has been limited by being treated as the 'good times' planet and isn't allowed to be one of the planetary gang. It seems to serve as some sort of God stand in. You know – nice, helpful, and understanding. And as Sunday school God is really pretty cloyingly sweet, so, commonly, is astrological Jupiter.


Well, all depends on personal attitudes.
If essentially dignified Jupiter afflicted by retro-status than it can come out like higher aims and expectations but poor results and deep disappointments.
Of course, keeping low profile makes everything looks ok, living just like ordinary peoples.
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
I can't imagine many knowledgeable astrologers saying that Jupiter in Capricorn, Virgo or Gemini is malefic. Weak, perhaps, or unable to perform at its best. But not actually malefic. The same with Jupiter in 6, 8, or 12. Is it truly malefic in those houses? Likewise, retrograde may not be “good” for a planet, but does that make Jupiter retrograde truly malefic?

I don't think you'll find answers by asking rhetorical questions. But if these are not rhetorical, I'll answer later. Just let me know.

Kirk wrote:
I do want to mention again that I think Jupiter is poorly understood – isn't given the chance to be understood.

Hint: mix Mars, Sun and Venus.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think you'll find answers by asking rhetorical questions. But if these are not rhetorical, I'll answer later. Just let me know.

I'll let you decide. Answer if and what you wish.


Things today led me to Deb's 'Conversing with Heaven' where I found "So what does it mean when the 'Greater Benefic' is made destructive by fiery excess?". It's nice to see someone with such knowledge of traditional astrology allow Jupiter to be blatantly "destructive".

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/cwh.html [The statement is found to the left of the "Think fast!" image.]


Quote:
Hint: mix Mars, Sun and Venus.

What are we supposed to do with that?


Last edited by ### on Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuriy wrote:
Quote:
I've heard some traditional astrologer's opinion that Jupiter in Sagittarius in retro state isn't good at all. That came from astrologer's practice. She gave some example of native's years during Jupiter's ferdaria(mostly 20s years of life in nocturnal chart) and argumentation for whole set of unfortunate events was the Jupiter's retrograde status in natal chart.


I sure can't see basing unfortunate events simply on a planet's retrograde status. Jupiter is a diurnal planet. Retrograde diurnal Jupiter in Sagittarius in a diurnal chart hardly seems likely to become a beast - especially if we add being occidental of the Sun, where the superior planets are happiest. Confused
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Yuriy wrote:
Quote:
I've heard some traditional astrologer's opinion that Jupiter in Sagittarius in retro state isn't good at all. That came from astrologer's practice. She gave some example of native's years during Jupiter's ferdaria(mostly 20s years of life in nocturnal chart) and argumentation for whole set of unfortunate events was the Jupiter's retrograde status in natal chart.


I sure can't see basing unfortunate events simply on a planet's retrograde status. Jupiter is a diurnal planet. Retrograde diurnal Jupiter in Sagittarius in a diurnal chart hardly seems likely to become a beast - especially if we add being occidental of the Sun, where the superior planets are happiest. Confused


So, what do you think about chart with retro-Jupiter in 1st house in Sagittarius in nocturnal chart with Sag AC? That's with main luminary Moon in Pieces (ruled by Jupiter) and most of planets in Jupiter's term or triplicity.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.astro.com/wiki/astro-databank/index.php?title=Graynor,_Ari&redirect=no

chart with jupiter in sag retro on the midheaven in a nocturnal chart..

my 2c? - trying to put planets in a box to imply something based on whether it is a diurnal or nocturnal chart, or whether it is retro, stationary or direct is tricky... the cop out is going into other parts of the chart to explain why every position is always an exception.. i don't think one can generalize about anything in astrology, but people/astrologers do regularly.

here is an alternative thought..

if planets that are retrograde are in the wrong position in terms of strength connected to the idea of oriental/occidental, then astrologers that follow all this are sort of saying the same thing, no? whether they communicate this via the pop ideas on retro (and i don't know that the indian astrology crowd hold to these retro ideas) or due a superior planet( in this example) being not in the best position oriental/occidental then it sounds as though the same idea is being expressed.. what about the idea that it makes the other planets more prominent and these retros less so? putting astro in the framework of good/bad is an age old problem.. i have never bought into the idea that jupiter is all good. i recall a very personal experience with transit sun conjunction my jupiter which was a big disappointment.. obviously there will be other factors going on, but "jupiter all good" is definitely not a sure thing.. trying to alter this with the other means - retro, occidental, nocturnal - you name it - seems like a fools game, but then astrologers love this type of stuff!
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you James_m for the link.
I'm concerned because important young person in my life has the described above configuration.
Some practicing astrologers persisting on some conclusions base on their experience, while its in contrary with common judgments.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
The same with Jupiter in 6, 8, or 12. Is it truly malefic in those houses?


This is one of the feel cases that I have a rule set in stone for myself. 100% of the times, a planet inside 6th, 8th or 12th, be it dignified or not, be it a benefic or not, if it is whole signs we talk about, will always act primarily as a malefic.

Of course, the planet can act as benefic to other houses than the 1st, for example, the 10th trigons the 6th, so the sixth favors the 10th. But otherwise, in a radical chart, 6th, 8th and 12th are mostly malefic houses, therefore, anything inside it is mostly malefic as well.

That being said, a planet ruling the 12th, but in a benefic house, say, 9th, will be way better than a planet ruling the 12th, inside the 12th, or 6th or 8th. If the planet is essentially malefic, and has dignity, being inside these 3 malefic houses, then things could get really nasty for the native, or better put, to the matters of the 1st house, which is, suposedly, the most important region in a given chart.
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