USA CHART

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As I understand it the historical evidence relating to the events of 4/7/1776 and the stronger astrological 'evidence' point to a chart around 5.00 -15pm. I have come across a few persuasive arguments as to why this would be correct, Rudhyar, Greene, Cornelius from memory

However I also understand that despite this some astrologers are sticking to other charts, Gem rising seems more popular than others. Even other days have been postulated.

So can anyone point me to a persuasive article/book, etc that defends this or another 'alternative' chart, going through the last 232 years of American history.

ps - i know some 'thinkers' argue that multiple charts can be used, but i am sceptical of this perspective.
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Last edited by robin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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You cannot use multiple charts in this instance, that would be foolish.

I currently look at Sibley natal for USA - Sag rising.
One of the events was the assasination of JFK.
A Mars opposite Venus. Venus ruling the 10th (president) with Mars ruling the 4th and 5th (presidents enemy and death of president)

Somehow managed to predict the destruction of an American city by a natuiral disaster - Katrina, which just happened to be on the Uranus square Uranus. Was using Sibley for that....Uranus spoke for itself in that event

Some other events used, but will recheck and get back to you.

3
thanks coffee

well i've just re-visited Cornelius's 'moment of astrology' and been looking at Juan Revilla's site and both argue in defence of multiple charts albeit for different reasons. Neither are 'lightweights' i'd have thought.

I'm really trying to find a detailed defence of a non-sag rising chart. I've seen quite a few defences for the sibley.
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Last edited by robin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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When you say multiple charts...do you mean multiple ascendant for the USA natal, or multiple date charts?

Like the declaration....something else or something else?

Can see multiple charts as valid if a country dissolved and started again as new, in the example of Yugoslavia and Russia breaking off into smaller countries.

Can you expand please?

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this is my interpretation, and i'm not the brightest, so it may lack validity/accuracy

cornelius argues for a chart becoming significant once you are able to 'divine' it's symbolism. over time the sibley chart became seen as the one, partly because the date of 4/7/1776 became accepted in the amercian psyche as the independence date. (your be aware significant events happened on other days, which could indicate the start of a country). However he also states that you can find synchronistic /meaningful symbolism on other charts.

If you remember 9/11, the transits and progressions were seen as descriptive of the event on various usa charts.

i found cornelius potentially contradictory/confused as he favours the sibley chart as being 'right' , and goes to great lenghts to say why but later says it's only one of the 'right' ones.

In the same way cornelius argues for a 'wrong' natal chart being as potentially useful as a right one, it's about divining the moment/symbolism through any chart.

Revilla is more prosaic i think. he would say look at various dates/charts in american history. All of which say something about the american psyche/history.

In the same way to understand your life you have your natal chart, your partners chart, the chart for the day you lost your virginity, the chart for the day you murdered someone , etc - use them all seeems to be revilla's stance.
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Last edited by robin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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See if I understand correctly.... :D

Events can be linked to any of the supposed natal charts of the USA through looking at the symbolism of events?

Like 9/11 would show up with the indep. natal as well as.... the civil war natal? Is that correct?

It sounded like what you are saying (based on another persons views) is that any chart could fit for America based on transits for important events.

If Im not missing the point, I would say no. Use ther civil war chart until the idep. or whatever natal came along and only go on events uptil that point. Once the new chart is "born" any future events cannot be related to the previous natal, it would have to be within the existence of the original natal timeframe.

Like if you had 3 charts for USA....

a) from the discovery to 1500
b) 1500 - 1900
c) 1900 - present.

My American (and even English) history is not the best :P

You could not use the 9/11 transits on natal chart a) as the timeframe would be out. Of course, it could show something which would indicate, but that chart would be "dead" when it is reborn.

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Coffee wrote:You cannot use multiple charts in this instance, that would be foolish.

I currently look at Sibley natal for USA - Sag rising.
One of the events was the assasination of JFK.
A Mars opposite Venus. Venus ruling the 10th (president) with Mars ruling the 4th and 5th (presidents enemy and death of president)

Somehow managed to predict the destruction of an American city by a natuiral disaster - Katrina, which just happened to be on the Uranus square Uranus. Was using Sibley for that....Uranus spoke for itself in that event

Some other events used, but will recheck and get back to you.
Ah yes!
Aquarius on the 3rd. Or the 12th (loss) from the 4th (land)
All coming back to me now. :lala

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i found cornelius potentially contradictory/confused as he favours the sibley chart as being 'right' , and goes to great lenghts to say why but later says it's only one of the 'right' ones.
Which is a major problem with this book.

"Multiple charts" does not mean that we can use a Sagittarius rising on Monday then, if we can't find an event in that chart switch to Gemini rising on Tuesday and then go to the Battle of Bunker Hill chart for another event we can't find in either on Wednesday. That would be absurd.

But we can use multiple charts based on a beginning chart the way Abu Mashar used the grand conjunctions. You have a significant grand conjunction then the following Saturn Jupiter conjunctions are compared to this basic chart much in the way a solar return is used with a nativity.

Nations don't spring into being as an infant does when he draws his first breath. One minute he didn't exist independently in the world the next he did. It can be argued that the USA sprang into existence on July 4, 1776 ,at one time of day or another, but the USA is more than her independence. Let's stick with the July 4 chart though.

Transits to the July 4 chart are not enough. Mars transits something every two years, what is different about this Mars transit from all the others? We might have to look to a progressed chart or an event chart closely related to the event. For example we might use JFK's inauguration in conjunction with July 4, 1776, and Nov 22, 1963, or we might use the Battle of the Bulge chart in conjunction with Patton's or the Pearl Harbor chart or FDR's chart in order to better understand it. This is the way I understand the use of multiple charts. They are nested, not independent of each other

Cherry picking one that "works" in one instant then discarding it in favor of another when it doesn't "work," is, of course, silly.

Tom

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Speaking of Ab? Ma'shar, in his On The Great Conjunctions And On Revolutions Of The World, which I am very loosely paraphrasing, he says to use the Aries Ingress chart for when the 'dynasty and King' begin to rule. For the U.S.A., the current government, based on the Constitution of the U.S.A., first took power in 1789, when George Washington took the Oath of the Presidency on Wall Street in Manhattan, New York, becoming essentially our first constitutional 'monarch'. So under Ab? Ma'shar's guidelines, one would use the Aries Ingress for 1789 set for New York, NY USA as the chart of the United States.

I admit that my knowledge of Ab? Ma'shar's method is weak, due to my inherent sloth, and hope that someone more knowledgeable about it will chime in. <cough>Steven<cough> :D
Gabe

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coffee
your better of reading these ideas yourself as they are quite sophisticated.

tom,
revilla's thinking relates to the 'seed metaphor', namely why just the one seed. He is persuaded by what he sees as epiphanies. so for usa the civil war, pearl harbour, jfk, 9/11......
however, like cornelius but from a different rationale, you would have the sibley chart in the middle of a round table and all these other charts surrounding it. So the sibley remains the focus but to describe the history of the usa in more depth you would need these other(s).
so i suppose your 'nesting' fits here?
what interests me more is the practicalities and results of this approach

gr,
well this is what i'm looking for - an alternative chart with a detailed interpretation.

looks like i'll have to keep looking?
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Last edited by robin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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I've used the 7GE35 rising for decades -- philosophically, about the time I was intensely into it, I was reading Gregory Severin on the native American (Mayan) zodiac which he began at Aldebaran -- which was in July 1776 in an intricate formation with Uranus & theoretical US rising

2) the great blackout of November 1965 was concurrent (w/in hours as I recall) of a progressed eclipse using the 18AQ10 natal moon of the 7GE35 ASC -- it was on Spiro Agnew's birthday

3) the new moon at 7GE 34 -- may 29, 1995 -- conjuncting hypothetical US ASC was synchronous with progressed Lunar Return at 18AQ10 -- I consider this the start of the WWW (which Al Gore invented)

that the line of main argument -- of course I have a catalogue of events

one thing to remember in checking out the ASC -- the heavy aspects of outer planets to each other do not count -- one has to pay close attention to the angles & the progressed moon.

i do not like the sag rising sibley chart because US moon is void of course & if ben franklin had ANYTHING to do with the timing, he might have not worked with URanus since George's star outside our ken until 1789, but voido moon would have been within his astrological armamentorium

Initially adopted 7GE35 from Robert Jansky's set of charts on the 1976 election when I first began studying astrology.

sonja foxe

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robin wrote: gr,
well this is what i'm looking for - an alternative chart with a detailed interpretation.

looks like i'll have to keep looking?
There is a email list called Interpres Stellarium on Yahoo! Groups, which has been asleep for a long while, but they have discussed this approach and done delineation on the chart, as well as some current ingresses for specific years. It is rather complicated, just like the other modern approaches, but with a lot more logic :D A simple demonstration, I'm afraid, will elude you at this point.
Gabe