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Horary with Possible Cazimi and Eclipse
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Horary with Possible Cazimi and Eclipse Reply with quote

I ran this chart today for the question, "What will my doctor tell me Friday?"

4:03 pm, Eastern Daylight Time
Cincinnati, Ohio
Regiomontanus Houses
24 Cancer ascends
Moon at 14 Aquarius on the cusp of the eighth

I am still in a state of transition following my mother's passing.
The querent is single, female, and age 51.

I do not have my advanced software on hand; but the Mercury/Sun on this chart does look like a possible cazimi to me. If it is, that is not a good indication on this chart, as Mercury Lord of the Twelfth in a New Moon chart shows the strength of the illness. Ideally, we do not want a strong illness!

Moon, indicator of the querent (well,me, really) is combust and therefore not strong--but within her current sign, will eclipse the Sun.

The querent has just had a CAT scan test for colon and internal organs. The doctor called to make an appointment to give the results on Friday. The results will be interesting to compare with the horary chart.

If anyone wants to comment on the chart, that would be welcome. I will post my own analysis later today.

Warmest regards,

Pam
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pam,

From Lilly, CA p.248:
Quote:
when the Lord of the sixth ... (is) placed in the sixth and ... a Fortune ... the Disease will soon be cured ...

Jupiter, L6, in the sixth is indeed a Fortune and Venus is there too. L6 is not very strong being peregrine and in fall and it's not aspecting L1 which, it is true, is not very strong either, being combust and in the 8th showing you are under a lot of stress. I'm sorry to hear that you've recently lost your mother. I imagine that's what this 8th house traffic jam is about -- your grief.

Sun and Moon are both above the horizon which is a positive testimony. Fortuna conjunct the Asc is also a hopeful sign.

The doctor, L7, is Saturn who disposits practically everything in the sky at the moment and is in mutual reception with Mercury, indeed cazimi, but not ruling the illness so whatever strength it can muster is a plus. Seems the doctor will have good help dealing with whatever it is that's ailing you. Also possible there will be some revisiting and revising of opinions as both Saturn and Mercury are Rx.

L1 applies to conjunct Mercury L12 and Mars L10 (the cure) is in the 12th ... the doctor will probably tell you you need to take some time out and rest or at least slow down. I suppose a period of hospitalization might be in the picture. Saturn in 3rd -- maybe the doctor will suggest some counselling to help you deal with your loss?
Let us know how it turns out and all the best.

Tara
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: Thanks for Your Kind Thoughts, Tara! Reply with quote

Tara, thank you for looking at this chart. I too find reasons for hope in the chart, although different ones than you named!

I follow Saunders' rules for the house of illness; the twelfth rules illness in New Moon charts. This method is touted as being most useful for charts relating to health/decumbitures where the urine is not used (I haven't tried the age-old method of examining the querent's urine yet!) Which brings in the pesky cazmini retrograde Mercury, strengthened by the Sun.

The cusp of the seventh ruled by a retrograde and peregrine Saturn makes this a tricky chart for both the astrologer and the physician, so we can all be excused from immaculate accuracy with this chart.

Cusp of the twelfth ruled by a retrograde and cazimi Mercury denotes an illness located in Mercury-ruled areas of the body. Since the subject of the doctor's conversation will be a CAT scan of colon and internal digestive organs, we find this fitting and will not worry too much about the Gemini-ruled arms and lungs (not included in the CAT scan) and focus on the Virgo-ruled parts (colon and internal digestive organs, highlighted by contrast for the CAT scan).

Reading Saunders' rules for mortality, I found five signs of death on the first few of Saunders' thirty pages. I quit reading after six. Three signs are enough to be fatal.

Here are the ones I found, without looking very hard:

Moon combust the Sun
Moon within five degrees of the cusp of the eighth
Lord of the House of Illness retrograde
Lady of the Ascendant in the House of Saturn
Lady of the Ascendant and Lord of the 12th both combust or retrograde, and the Moon ill-aspected (conjunct the Sun)
The Lady of the fourth opposed the Ascendant.

There I stopped. I think there are likewise some dire predictions associated with an eclipse chart, but you can only die once after all.

First, I will say that I asked the question, "What will my doctor tell me?", not "Will I live or die?". But I have had doctors (unsolicited) prediciting my untimely demise over the past few years, so it is a subject of interest to me from the point of view of "What will the doctor say?"; not that I have to believe him even if he indicates mortality! Saturn rules the seventh, casting some doubt on his prognosis. Because of my question, I take it the chart shows if the doctor will discuss a terminal condition, not whether I will live or die from this illness.

Fortunately for me, the chart shows a clear sign of recovery: three upcoming aspects to the Moon while in her current sign. It does not matter if the aspects are "good" or "bad", according to Saudners. Moon will conjunct Mercury, conjunct Sun, and trine Mars. Saunders states that any one sign of recovery negates all signs of mortality in the chart.

I do think the doctor will discuss a serious condition, but one which can be managed with hopes of recovery. Mars rules the house of treatment and Moon's final aspect in this sign is a trine to Mars. I hate the thought of surgery, but according to Saunders, Mars ruling the house of treatment and in the eleventh house indicates "chirurgery" (surgery); the more so, I imagine, with an upcoming trine of the Moon to Mars.

I have an advantage in reading this chart, of course, since I know my medical history and a retrograde significator can mean something to me.

I have had liver problems in the past, so that digestive organ is of interest as a possible site of illness. Using Saunders' "star scan" methods of looking at the chart, the area that indicates the liver is the fifth house. The cusp of the fifth shows a liver whose condition is indicated by 17 Scorpio. Of the four planets indicating the four humours (Saturn, Venus, Moon and Jupiter), Venus (choler) has the most dignity here, hence describing the humoral state of the liver. She is in her triplicity in Capricorn, so is of moderate strength. Evidently it is not the quantity, but the quality of the humour that is causing problems. A humoral physician would say that Venus indicates an abundance of choler, attracting "bad humours" to the liver. The liver is a major producer of hormones and chemicals in the body. The chart seems to say something is going wrong here.

I think that's all I can grasp just now; if I do not post again before Friday, I will be sure to let you know what the doctor has to say then.

Well wishes,

Pam
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: Thanks for Your Kind Thoughts, Tara! Reply with quote

Oops! Duplicate post, I blame Mercury retrograde! Smile.
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 730

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pam

Please accept my late sympathies. I didnt go through all the threads.

usually i would look at combusted moon with high skeptism but here i might say maybe you will have rough time recovering? I dont know what planet is responsible for immune system but i think it is moon.

POF is a good sign. Here is a question i asked before. Since merc is retro, it is enforced by saturn by MR by sign which is good. wouldnt this be enough to conclude that you will recover even if it will take longer than usual?

keep your chin up,
CD
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, CD

Thanks for the encouragement!

I found your comments interesting. Could you elaborate on your reference to Saturn--good, why?

I wonder what the Moon combust makes you skeptical of?

A retrograde significator for illness I would take to mean the condition was returning, or likely to return.

Thanks!

Well wishes,

Pam
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pam,

Does Saunders use his method for horaries or only decumbitures, because it seems very different from Lilly's.

Anyway here's hoping for the best outcome. I look forward to hearing what your doctor has to say.

Tara
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stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there Pam, hope things go well for you. I drew up the chart on solar fire and I get a Cancer 11deg 45 ASC and Jupiter is in house 7.

Stan Confused
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 730

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pam

i have your chart in front of me

You are Moon, right?
it is leaving 7th house into 8th, correct?
Moon itself is peregrine. NO MR's to anything. Meaning that you have no control over the situation and wandering helplessly with "how will i survive it?"
moon is conjuncting Mercury which is conj Sun but MR to Mercury
so i began thinking why are all those planets alligned alonng sag 5th house into 8th house of aquarius?

Mars is entering 12th house - hospitalization. So I am thinking maybe saturn is your doctor and since there their 6th house is your 12th, is their job.

moon is mutually apllying mercury. I hope i am not wrong. Ivy goldstein said which seems Lilly had a different explanation to what happens when retro planet is applying to a faster moving planet. Ivy said that the condition of the situation will be hasten up.

8th house rules by surgery, right? NNode is there!this is GOOD! Jupiter and venus even though Venus is the stronger than peregrined Jupiter tell me that you should be OKAY BUT not without intervetion of doctors.

Even with its weak planets in the chart, you shoudl be OKAY.. moon trines mars at the end.

does this make sense? Please correct me if i am going off base

Cheers
CD

spirlhelix wrote:
Hi, CD

Thanks for the encouragement!

I found your comments interesting. Could you elaborate on your reference to Saturn--good, why?

I wonder what the Moon combust makes you skeptical of?

A retrograde significator for illness I would take to mean the condition was returning, or likely to return.

Thanks!

Well wishes,

Pam
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:02 am    Post subject: Hi, Tara Reply with quote

Tara said:

Quote:
Does Saunders use his method for horaries or only decumbitures, because it seems very different from Lilly's.


I would use either Lilly's rules or Saunders' for horary charts that deal with illness. As it happens, Lilly does not provide rules for urineless charts, but Saunders does, so I use those.

Lilly and Saunders both lived at the same time, but Saunders was a physician all his adult life, while Lilly became a physician only later in life.

Warmest regards,

Pam
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:08 am    Post subject: Hi, Stan! Thanks for the good wishes Reply with quote

Stan said:

Quote:
Hi there Pam, hope things go well for you. I drew up the chart on solar fire and I get a Cancer 11deg 45 ASC and Jupiter is in house 7.


Wow, Stan. That's quite a difference! Are you using Regiomontanus houses? Jupiter in the seventh would be fantastic, but the chart I brought up has Jupiter and Venus in the sixth.

Wonder what's causing the discrepancy?

Warmest regards,

Pam
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:27 am    Post subject: CD; Thanks for your Thoughts! Reply with quote

CD wrote:

Quote:
8th house rules by surgery, right? NNode is there!this is GOOD!


I would like to agree with you: Good is good, and GOOD is even better!
And normally I would find the North Node good. However, in this chart, North Node with Moon and Sun approaching conjunction within the same sign says eclipse.

Which on a chart relating to health, as a rule is not good.

If you are following modern rules, eighth for surgery is what I am told.
Lilly never said it, and I try to stick with Lilly and his contemporaries in my chart interpretations. Lilly and his buddies say eighth for death.

I don't want to be preoccupied with death; it happens to all of us once, and that is enough. But I have been in the position before of being slammed with shockingly bad news at the doctor's office, and I have found that I have great difficulty concentrating on what the doctor is saying when he is suddenly talking about terminal conditions. So I would rather have some idea in advance, so I won't be so startled when I get the news.

Decumbiturists were experts in examining a chart for signs of death. It was the first thing they looked at on a chart. These were doctors who practiced during the plagues. With eighteen hundred deaths a week in London alone, there were very practical reasons for knowing which patients were going to recover, and which were not.

Nevertheless, I do appreciate your generosity of spirit! And after all the talk of death, the chart does say recovery, although the threat of death is probably what it will take me to go under the knife.

I'll be sure to tell you what I find out tomorrow.

Warm regards,

Pam
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pam

I hope the best for you. Keep us posted on your health / doctor convo tomorrow.

cheers
CD

PS check your PM box i sent ya a PM
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About Stan's discrepancy on the chart - Pam, you listed EDT rather than EST when you posted the chart data. Yet the Asc you list is a result of casting the chart in EST -- which is the correct time. I guess Stan took you at your word ...

Also about surgery ... according to Lilly, the 10th is the cure -- Aries on 10th - Mars ruled - could indicate surgery as well, which fits with a period of hospitalization with Mars in 12th.

Good luck at the doctor's today, Pam.

Tara
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Visit to the Doctor Reply with quote

Thanks for the support, all!

The doctor wants me to have my gallbladder out.

And yes, I am the sort of patient to say, "What will happen to me if I don't?". And the doctor assures me that I will be much worse off, does not know if I can withstand the complications of a gangrenous gallbladder with the heart, liver, and kidney conditions I already have, etc, etc.

And that is what the doctor had to say. A condition he considers serious, with hope for recovery through surgery, as the chart suggested.

The reason the chart shows no great pernicious aspects from Saturn, the author of stony obstacles in tender places, is (I imagine) because at the time of the question, I was not suffering from an attack of gallstones. But as we saw in the chart, nearly everything is disposited by Saturn, and by Saunders' rules, Saturn is posited on the cusp of the third house, a place that indicates, "The throat next the stomach". Saturn in the earthy sign of Virgo, ruling the digestive organs, is a fitting indicator of a stone.

I really did not want to believe I have gallstones or would require surgery.

I think looking at the chart beforehand helped me face up to the facts.
But I still wonder what the eclipse will mean for my health.

Thanks for the kind thoughts and well wishes from CD, Tara, Stan and all those who popped up with cheery notes through PM.

One of these days I may post a chart for the outcome of the surgery; as far as I know, the chart I cast for today's conversation is limited to the conversation itself, and does not necessarily predict the outcome of the actual surgery.

Well wishes to all!

Warmly,

Pam
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Last edited by spirlhelix on Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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