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Allocating the Ascendant
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Ficina
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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Location: Kent, England

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Allocating the Ascendant Reply with quote

John's analysis of the Sunderland/Portsmouth game over on the Predictions thread has got me thinking about this vexed question again.

Basically we have three options - home team, faves, colours. When the home team are the faves, I think we can feel comfortable in allocating the Asc to them. All's right with the world, as it were. Fortunately this is probably the case 80%(?) of the time. However, when the away team are the faves perhaps we should then use the colour method as a decider.

When I have time, I'm going to do some research into this, looking at previous games where the away team were the faves and perhaps also where the home teams were only marginal faves.
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
games where the away team were the faves and perhaps also where the home teams were only marginal faves.

Yesterday we had two good examples of this, didn`t we? Sunderland and Bolton were such teams and Sunderland won and Bolton lost.

I look forward to reading about your research Very Happy
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always allocated home team the AC, as you know. I'd just like to note the lastest two examples where this didn't work(with the method I use) unless I gave faves the AC:

13 Jan Bolton/Blackburn 16:00, 1-2
14 Jan Crewe/Leeds (odds: 3.75/1.83) 19:45, 0-1

In the first chart, Moon trines anti-Fortuna and in the second, Moon sextiles Fortuna. These indicate faves are in favourable positions. Therefore I wondered if it's legitimate to give the faves AC...

Obviously two examples are not enough and I'll have to look at more charts...
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Ficina
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking that if we're using JF's antiscial testmonies perhaps we should go the whole hog and adopt his Asc=faves method also. However, I'm not quite prepared to do that yet, especially while I'm exploring the colour method as a decider.

The Crewe/Leeds game was an excellent example. Leeds wore their yellow away strip which probably fits for Mercury, but in any case we had Jupiter=red for Crewe and, as Goca pointed out, as long as we can allocate one colour then that's OK.

Bolton were very marginal faves, but the colour method would make them the Asc anyway - Cancer/Moon=white. I have no explanation for that result but it was a local derby and they are often difficult to predict.
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Gem



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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've been thinking that if we're using JF's antiscial testmonies perhaps we should go the whole hog and adopt his Asc=faves method also. However, I'm not quite prepared to do that yet, especially while I'm exploring the colour method as a decider.

I'm not prepared to do that either becuase home team=AC works well most of the time and JF says his method is only for high-profile matches.

I'm intriegued that you limit the use of the color method as a decider. If it works in those occassions, then why not go the whole hog and use it all the time?
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Ficina
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like you, I've been perfectly happy using Asc=home team because it does work well most of the time and I've used it ever since I first started doing footie charts about 15 years ago Surprised And I guess I've just accepted that on some occasions it hasn't worked. It was getting that Sunderland game wrong that got me thinking about it.

As I say, I'm just experimenting at the moment. I don't see the need to apply the colour method when the home team are the faves. For one thing, it's a lot of extra work and I'm not very good at it anyway! Very Happy
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Gem



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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you aren't good at it, Ficina.
You've been doing this for 15 years? Gobsmacked (you have my respect...)
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I judge natal charts I give the Ascendant to the person (or querent) because he is in his own place. Opponents are shown by the 7th. I think that whoever may be defending a title, may rightfully claim the ascendant - but favourite by odds does just not do it.

What would it take for my partner or opponent to capture the ascendant of my nativity.

Or like I said in a different string, if the descendant is essentially stronger than the ascendant - do we give the descendant to the favourite?

I have no problem in adapting POF as default for the favourite (or POS by night), and secondly the Moon shows which way the public goes. And then POS could be place that wins the publics affection, if not by odds - then like pets, mascots or through heroism.

If Fortuna is you property or kingdom, I wonder if the Part of Spirit is where you hoist your flag...
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Ficina
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Gem Very Happy I said I started 15 years ago. There have been long gaps when I haven't done it at all, so it's not actually 15 years' experience. I used to concentrate on predicting exact scores, which is much more difficult of course and was probably the reason I gave up for a while Laughing
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always puzzles me why people cling to tenaciously to the idea of the home team getting the first house. These game charts are a subset of contest analysis, so I would think that whatever rules apply to contests in general would have to apply to game charts. In many types of sports contests the idea of a home team simply doesn't apply. Boxing and tennis come immediately to mind. Yet we can put up charts for these contests, where there is no home team. Therefore the first house does not and cannot refer to the home team. It must refer to some quality that one of the two contestants possesses. Since the first house is associated with Aries, one would expect that quality to be something along the lines of self-confidence, aggressiveness, etc. This quality does usually apply to the home team, and that is why putting the home team in the first usually works. But being the favorite works better, and, as Frawley points out, using your own knowledge of the teams works even better. Looking at it another way, for the first house to equate to the home team you would have to find some symbolism in astrology which links that idea and the first house. I know of none. To the fourth house, perhaps, but not the first.

Regards,

Bob
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Goca



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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In many types of sports contests the idea of a home team simply doesn't apply. Boxing and tennis come immediately to mind. Yet we can put up charts for these contests, where there is no home team. Therefore the first house does not and cannot refer to the home team. It must refer to some quality that one of the two contestants possesses.

Bob, fantastic analyses!
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Ficina
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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When a game is played on neutral ground, then obviously there is no home team, so then I always give the Asc to the favourite. The only problem with that method is when there is no clear favourite. This was the case in two major cup finals last year, the English FA Cup and the European Champions League. The bookies' odds were equal and there was nothing to tell between the teams. Goca successfully predicted the results of both these games using the colour method.

As I said in my original post, I'm looking at three methods of allocating the Asc. I'm sure there are others but I chose to look at just those three. Home team (when applicable), favourites (when applicable) and colours (always applicable!). Best of all is when all three methods agree. Failing that, then it's two out of three.

We have only two options, and occasionally only one (as in the examples above) when the game is on neutral ground. But most of the time, at least on the football threads, we are looking at domestic games where we have the three options available to us.

I'm not expecting people to agree with this approach. It's just something I'm working on Smile
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Gem



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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob
In traditional astrology, the 1st house isn't necessarily equated with Mars. Mercury rejoices there(a minor accidental dignity) because his association with intellect, head and speech. Saturn is a co-sig.

The reason I allocate AC to home team is that because AC is the most powerful point in the chart. I don't know how things are in the USA, but here in Europe, playing at home is considered to be a strong advantage. Particularly when two teams of equal standings play, bookies give home team shorter odds. Home ground is like a fortress where the home team fight and protect, while visiting team has to play in an alien and sometimes hostile enviroment(disadvantaged), going into a lion's den, as it were, with the local supporters roaring behind the home team. The AC is the ones who do the fighiting and the 7th is the House of open enemies.
Statiscally also home team has been proved to be in an advantageous position.


Last edited by Gem on Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ficina
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've made some excellent points there, Gem Cool
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Bulletbobb



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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree completely with Gem: most of the time the home team is the favorite. Here in the US the home field is generally considered to be worth 3 points in the pointspread.

But it sometimes happens here, and I am certain it happens 'over there', that the home team is playing a clearly superior opponent, in which case they are not made the favorite by the line maker. If you have a home team that has a loosing record and they are playing a road team that has won it's last dozen games, then no amount of home field advantage is going to make them a favorite. You think that team really thinks they are going to beat the visitor? They're not fools. They know the most they can hope for is to not be completely humilitated in front of their fans.

Sometimes there is no home field advantage at all. Some teams actually do better on the road. Years ago the New Orleans Saints (NFL) were a terrible team. Their 'fans' showed up with signs that said 'New Orleans Aint's', and some wore paper bags over their heads so no one would know they went to a Saints game. You think the Saints had a home field advantage in that situation?

But you are correct in that we need more than one way to decide on who gets the first. An analysis of team preformance over the last few games is probably better than using the spread alone, but you can never be sure.

One of these days I have to try Goca's method, even tho I'm skeptical. I have been experimenting with Sophia Mason's diurnal chart method, which would bypass the question entirely, but I have decided to put it on the back burner for now. Anybody interested?

Bob
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