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Reception by Fall
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Reception by Fall Reply with quote

Quote:
The lady is the Querent here?


Hi Julie,
yes she is.

Quote:
The question is about the relationship and the outcome? I'm reading the responses to your queries so if you settle the Reception by Fall issue, what will you advise the lady? She has sought your advice?


Yes she did. The couple have been together for about five years but for the past year or two she has felt that she has been doing all of the running while he no longer seems as responsive as she would like. She wanted to know if she would be happy staying in the relationship. (At least that's the gist of the question)

Quote:
She is over invested and he is under invested. If he feels resment and the lady has 'placed him in difficult circumstance' surely he has placed himself there, and no one else is responsible for his feelings? I'm simply curious as to how this would be dealt with in a sensible, truthful and kindly fashion? Confused


I pretty much agree with your assessment Julie and I said as much to her. When I mentioned the word 'resentment' on his part she smiled and nodded, so it seems that "rejection" is a good description of a planet being received into the fall of another.
As to how you approach this idea with a client all I can tell you is how I approach it, which is to simply question your client as to whether or not (s)he has noticed any sense of resentment or frustration on the part of the quesited. If you are reasonably sure of your ground then this question can initiate some very revelatory insights. Being honest and open with your client is of paramount importance and if there is some part of the horary about which you are unsure you should simply say so rather than just guess. Knowing that you are human can go a long way to gaining a rapport with a nervous client :-)

In this case I was able to encourage my friend that while it did not look as though she would get a great deal of satisfaction out of this relationship, her partner's frustration and resentment was more about his own situation and not about anything she was doing. I was also able to tell her that, based on the Moon's entry into Taurus in 14 weeks (angular, cardinal Moon, but slow) she would at that time be in a much more comfortable situation with far more resources with which to make positive decisions in her situation.Until then she would simply have to ride things out as best she could.

Again, thanks to everyone for all your help and the interesting discussion that my question provoked. Thanks especially to Astrojin for the explanation of the difference between 'resourceful' and 'powerful'; that's useful to know.

Cheers
=====
Pete
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 466

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again,

From Straylite:

Quote:
Does Mars in Scorpio not at least have the resources of triplicity? How would that fit into the picture?


Well, ... Mars in Scorpio is in its own domicile rulership. He is full of resources without having to refer to his triplicity (trigon). Perhaps your question is Moon in Scorpio (where she is fall) and yet still has the dignity of being in her triplicity?
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StrayLite



Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Memphis, TN USA "Elvisland"

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
Hello again,

From Straylite:

Quote:
Does Mars in Scorpio not at least have the resources of triplicity? How would that fit into the picture?


Well, ... Mars in Scorpio is in its own domicile rulership. He is full of resources without having to refer to his triplicity (trigon). Perhaps your question is Moon in Scorpio (where she is fall) and yet still has the dignity of being in her triplicity?


No, I meant Mars in Cancer. Mars rules the Water Triplicity. The Moon is not in Triplicity in Scorpio.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 466

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straylite wrote:

Quote:
No, I meant Mars in Cancer. Mars rules the Water Triplicity. The Moon is not in Triplicity in Scorpio


FYI, I use Dorothean scheme of Triplicity rulership and the water trigon has Venus, Mars and Moon as trip rulers. Hence, moon is the third trip ruler for water trigon (to be exact, the participating ruler).

According to Dorothean trip rulerships scheme, Mars is the second trip ruler of water trigon. Hence when Mars is in Cancer, Mars is in Fall and yet in its own triplicity for nocturnal chart (night chart).

Bonatti said that a planet in its own triplicity is like a man amongst allies.

If we use the concept of resources with essential dignities, a planet in fall can be interpreted as a planet with no resources (he is in a pit or depression). Using this concept and that of Bonatti's we can surmise that for a planet in Fall but also in its own triplicity, the native himself is without resources required to push his agenda but he has the right connection (allies) to help him or cushion him...

This does not apply to a day chart as the primary trip ruler of Cancer is Venus (Dorothean). This also bodes well with Hellenistic concept of sect because Mars is in sect for nocturnal or night charts. Hence, Mars is favourable to the native!

PS:
In Hellenistic astrology (according to Schmidt) Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are in sect in day chart and out of sect in night chart whereas Moon, Venus and Mars are in sect in night chart and out of sect in day chart.

The medieval concept of sect (reletive to horizon and gender of sign) are all rejoicing conditions (not definition for sect).
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my words from a previous post:
Quote:
He mentions that there is reception even when the first planet is in the triplicity, or term of the second one.


I have to give an explanation to this (or better say a rectification-mea culpa-) :
Reading Zahel again it is obvious that he mentions expressly that the second planet must have two or more of the minor dignities in the sign where the first planet is and not just one in order to have reception (so its different from the case of domicile and exaltation).
Say for example Moon in Gemini and in the bound of Saturn applying to Saturn.

That would be the first observation.

For the second one I need the help of another member trained in Latin (maybe Osthanes would be so kind to help me) to confirm my translation.

So, Zahel mentions citing Mesahala that Moon in vacuus cursu (void of course) after passing in the next sign and applying to a planet that is the lord of the first sign or in exaltation in the first sign, is also received by this planet. But if this planet it’s not either the domicile lord or in exaltation in the first sign then this planet will impede Moon.
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Levente Laszlo



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sasha and all,

as I see it, your interpretation is right. Nevertheless, from Sahl's words another question arises, that is, whether the opinion of Māshā’āllāh is faithfully rendered. This is not a minor question, I suppose, even if the reformulation of inherited rules for interrogative astrology is largely due to Sahl - and that is why he should be considered as a founder of interrogative (i.e. horary) astrology. Sadly, we seem to have no opportunity to get an overall sight on the extant works and fragments from Māshā’āllāh's interrogative astrology, since besides his On Reception there are only scattered (and partly unpublished) pieces in Arabic, Greek and Latin.
The reason why I am so suspicious is that while in his On Reception Māshā’āllāh clearly delivers his magisterial opinion about reception in one fashion, it by no means is the same as his pupil's. The other point is Māshā’āllāh's characteristic conceptualization of 'light-pushing' and the framing of the outcome from the strength of the receiver, which is radically reworked by Sahl. So from our scanty evidences I would not for sure accept Sahl's rendering as faithful, although, not matter how thorough revision it may have been in about 825, it was his conception about reception (or, at least some of its tenets) which became canonical.
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for your answer and comment.

Yes you are right it’s a big problem we have here:
1. Few incipient sources to compare;
2. lack of Arabic knowledge (I myself promised to go to an Arabic class as soon as I am getting out of the present projects).
3. lack of understanding of the ancient culture and civilization.
4. an so on

There is another important discussion that could be made about what can be understood by : pulsatio virtutis, dispositionis, or nature.
What’s your opinion about this terminology used in the Latin translation of Sahl?

He speakes about pulsatio of the virtutis, dispositionis or nature.
In the case of pulsatio virtutis Sahl gives the example of the Moon in Taurus applying to Jupiter. In this way Moon entrust its virtutis to Jupiter.
In the case of pulsation dispositionis and nature he gives as example: Moon in Aries applying to Mars. In this way again Moon entrust her dispositione or nature to Mars
I imagine that there must be a reason for using different words, and I have something in my mind especially something from Hellenistic astrology that could bring some light.

On the other hand even this pulsatio is questionable. I wonder what was the Arabic corespondent
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Levente Laszlo



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven,

it sounds really intriguing, even if Sahl must have been an experienced astrologer, since in the 820's and perhaps also in the 830's he served as a counsellor for Khurāsān governor Ibn al-Husayn and later for Ibn Sahl, the vizier of Caliph al-Ma’mūn.

Hi Sasha,

I can absolutely agree with you and I could add many other items to your list, for instance, the astounding fact that the overwhelming percentage of the astrological literature has never been published, thus it can only be found in vulnerable (and often, in unique) manuscripts which are difficult to access even to scholars.
Concerning Sahl's terminology, we are happy to find the distorted Arabic terms for pulsatio virtutis and pulsatio dispositionis et naturae which are dapha alchia and dapha aredir, respectively. The Arabic originals are daf‘ al-qūwwah and daf‘ al-tadbīr.
Now, daf‘ means something like 'delivery' (so 'pushing' is a bit misleading), and qūwwah and tadbīr means something 'ability to act' and 'performance', respectively. (I must tell you I am not competent in Arabic, I just used a dictionary.)
Actually, the unknown translator chose pulsatio for daf‘ which thus roughly corresponds in sense to Greek parallagē. Virtus is an acceptable and clear translation, while tadbīr seems to have given him pains as he chose a hendiadyoin, that is, circumscribed it with two words, dispositio and natura. That later is telling.

Osthanes
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Osthanes, you are quite a treasure!!!

Now, I have been digging too (believe me or not I spent good hours). I finally decided to take a serious look at my Arabic collection of scanned works to see whether I could find something useful. And surprisingly I found something.

But first I would like to present also some remarks made by the well trained master in classic languages and classic astrology Giuseppe Bezza about the significance of pulsatio:

Pulsatio: è, in un'applicazione, la trasmissione di luce e di natura ad opera del pulsans verso il receptor.
Pulsatio is, in an application, the transmission of light and nature by the pulsans towards the receptor planet.


Pulsatio naturae: è una pulsatio in cui il pulsans (il pianeta che compie l'applicazione) sta in una dignità del receptor e, portandogli la propria luce, gli offre in dono la sua stessa natura. Per esempio Mercurio in Capricorno che si applica a Saturno, offre a Saturno la natura del Capricorno che è il suo domicilio
Pulsatio naturae: it’s a pulsatio in which pulsans (the planet that makes the application) is in the dignity of receptor and, carrying its light to it, offers as a gift (donazione) its one nature. For example Mercury in Capricorn that applies to Saturn, offers to Saturn the nature of Capricorn which is its domicile.


Pulsatio virtutis: è una pulsatio in cui il pulsans (il pianeta che compie l’applicazione) sta in una propria dignità e comunica al receptor la propria forza.
Pulsatio virtutis : it’s a pulsatio in which the pulsans planet (the planet that makes the application) is in its dignity and convey/transmits to the receptor planet its one strength.

So it appears that according to Bezza’s opinion we are dealing with nature, and strength.


Now, I wasn’t able (yet) to find the Arabic text corresponding to the chapter that I tried to translate in my previous posts, but I found a fragment correspondent to the Latin chapter from the translation of Sahl’s introduction about the 50 judicial considerations:

The method used:
First I searched in the Latin texts of these 50 considerations the relevant terminology for our research: pulsatio, pulsatio naturae et dispositionis, pulsatio virtutis.
Then I looked at the consideration that contained this terminology in the Arabic fragment.
Final step: trying to translate the Arabic terminology (I am almost tabula rasa in Arabic and that gives me headache, but what the heak for the sake of art, we are leaving in the 21 century, a century of information and multiculturalism).

1. latin 34 consideration: Juppiter cum aspexerit malum mutat naturam suam in bonum….

The Arabic 34 consideration (I will reproduce the whole 34 consideration so that someone trained in Arabic to have a full view over the text):

إذا كان نحس يدفع إلى نحس فإنه نقل شر إلى شر
و إذا كان نحس يدفع إلى سعد فإنه يتحول من الشر إلى الخير
و إذا كان سعد يدفع إلى سعد فهو نقل خير إلى خير
و إذا كان سعد يدفع إلى نحس أصاب بعد الخير شرا
و هكذا فاشرح الأشياء



طبيعته : nature, kind, quality, ease


So here it appears we have no problem.

As an observation I noticed that where the Latin translator used aspexerit (which could be in English aspect) the Arabic text speaks about
نظر : which would be behold, look, consider, vide, believe, gaze, which in my opinion is quite a different from aspexerit used in the Latin translation.
And it can be seen also in other places that the Latin translator was not quite in accordance with the Arabic terminology. In other places it seems that the Latin text adds commentaries to text that were not implied by the Arabic text


2. Latin 35 consideration: Cum malum pulsat item iungitur malo……


The Arabic 35 consideration (I will reproduce the whole 34 consideration so that someone trained in Arabic to have a full view over the text):


إذا كان نحس يدفع إلى نحس فإنه نقل شر إلى شر
و إذا كان نحس يدفع إلى سعد فإنه يتحول من الشر إلى الخير
و إذا كان سعد يدفع إلى سعد فهو نقل خير إلى خير
و إذا كان سعد يدفع إلى نحس أصاب بعد الخير شرا
و هكذا فاشرح الأشياء



يدفع : I found to mean waft



3. Latin 42 consideration: receptor dispositionis cum fuerit occidentalis per….


The Arabic 42 consideration (I will reproduce the whole 34 consideration so that someone trained in Arabic to have a full view over the text):

قابل التدبير إذا كان غربيا يعني أمام الشمس كان ضعيفا منكسا الا ثم ما يقضي
و إن كان شرقيا كان قويا نشيطا تام القضية
لأن مثال الكوكب الفاسد مثل البناء إذا هدم فإذا بني جاد و حسن




التدبير : I found in a dictionary with the sense of strategy. So it’s more likely the way how it is conceived the action of that planet, it’s a matter of management of its action.

Regarding receptor planet the word seems to be:

قابل : the one that accepts, consents, is accessible, agreeing



I wasn’t able to find pulsatio virtutis in this Latin version of Sahl’s 50 considerations to which I have the Arabic fragment. I shall keep looking to this term and I will notify members if I find something.


Last edited by sasha_i on Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know we have here members with knowledge in Arabic language (if I am not in error zohra must have some knowledge in Arabic).

Please bring some light in this shadow corner of the forum, and help us.
If we succeed to find out what was the original sense of the Arabic terminology it would be a great thing for the development of the art in our astrological community.
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven

Hi

2007? or 2008?

CD
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Steven,

for me it appears that the outcome was destroyed by the opposition between Saturn and Mercury. even though it is interesting and probably some good effects camed from the trine between Jupiter and Sun to which Moon applies
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
An aspect does not destroy a conjunction, but a conjunction does destroy an aspect. An aspect does not cut off an aspect, but it does prohibit the matter. But a conjunction does in fact cut off an aspect.



Steven I looked again to the latin text to the 17 consideration where the Latin translator tells that: coniunctio que fit per aspectum non annullat coniunctionem que fit per corpo in uno signo (the aspect doesn’t cancel conjunction) ... but according to his translation coniunctio annulat eam que fit per aspectum (the conjunction cancel an aspect)


I looked at the Arabic text of 17 consideration:

الكوكب يريد أن يجامع الكوكب في برج فلا يدركه في ذلك البرج
حتى يخرج إلى البرج الآخر فالحاجة مقضية
إلا أن يجامع قبله غيره
فإن إتصل بغيره لم يضره ذلك لما وصفت لك : أن الإتصال لا يبطل المجامعة و المجامعة تبطل الإتصال و النظر لا يقطع النظر فافهم


But exacly where the translator uses the same word (annullat) the Arabic text use different words:

So the Arabic text uses يبطل which is right translated in latin with cancel ( so the translation : aspect doesn’t cancel conjunction is correct)
But when it speakes about the effect of conjuntion over aspect the Arabic text uses
تبطل which would be idleness, inaction, which to my knowledge isn’t the same with canceling
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Steven,

First I must admit I have never read Sahl! I'm Latin-deficient and am awaiting Benjamin Dykes's translation which is scheduled for this year.

While Saturn is the ruler of the Midheaven, by whole signs Pisces is the 10th house and thus Jupiter rules the job. The Moon is applying to Jupiter while she is in Jupiter's triplicity and face and he is in his domicile and triplicity in Sagittarius. So I'd say that you got the job, either that night or in 6 days or weeks from the question. Also, Jupiter being so dignified, it would have been a job that bestows great quality of honor

Of course this totally contradicts Sahl. I wonder if it is simply that Sahl is just wrong or that there are mitigating factors in this chart, e.g. the retrogradation of Saturn or the high dignity and strength of Jupiter. I would agree that the doctrine of reception is not as tightly bound as perhaps Sahl have it be.
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 82
Location: usa

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven,

Interesting question. I would venture that, since the Moon is translating the dignified 7th house Jupiter to Saturn by trine: Jupiter (a competitor) gets the job.

Try as I might, I just could not see it Sahl’s way (probably too set in my simple ways).

My Best Wishes towards your continued health improvements!

Christina
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