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Results of an experiment, part 1

 
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 171
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Results of an experiment, part 1 Reply with quote

I have just completed the first of a number of studies I plan to do to test some of Frawley's methods as presented in his sports astrology book, aka the pink book.

One of the problems in using game charts is the question of which team to put in the first house. I got to thinking that one way to avoid this, in a betting situation, is to bet the totals rather than the sides. For those not familiar with totals betting, the linesmaker puts up a number for each game (the average is 42 for American football) and the bettor can bet that the total points scored in the game will go over or under this number. Which team wins in irrelevant. Astrologically speaking, we could care less who is in the first house.

To see if the game chart would show very high or very low-scoring games, I went through my database of NFL games and made a thoroughly unscientific selection of several games that would fit these two criteria. This post will offer a few comments on the high-scoring games.

The first set consists of 17 charts for games played between 2002 and 2006. In order to eliminate as many variables as possible I selected only those charts where the favorite was favored by no more than about 6-7 points (the home field advantage is about three points), thus selecting games where the teams were fairly evenly matched. In addition, I looked only for those games where the points scored by both teams were roughly equal, as I wanted to avoid a blowout. The highest-scoring game in the set had a score of 58-48, and the lowest were in the range of 32-32, or thereabouts.

I will present a few examples here, to illustrate some of the things I have found. I will make the entire set of charts available to anyone who wants to see them. Or perhaps I could upload them to the files section.

The first chart is for Cleveland at Cincinnati (Ohio), played on Nov. 28, 2004, at 1:01:30 pm EST. This was the highest-scoring game in the set, with a score of 58 to 48 (I wonder if this is an NFL record?).
Cincinnati were 6-point favorites, and the totals number was 38, a little below average. Cleveland won, so this an upset, the only one in the set. Two things catch the eye immediately in this chart: Uranus is less than a degree above the horizon, and the Moon is void-of-course. Note that Jupiter, ruler of the fist and tenth, is exactly trine Neptune, the other ruler of the Asc. Also, Mars applies to a square of Neptune. These factors (except the Moon), illustrate one of the things I have noticed about these charts, i.e., that there is some form of planetary contact that suggests some kind of high-energy situation, or perhaps something unusual. There are a few contacts by antiscion: Saturn-90-Uranus and Asc; Jupiter-90-MC, and Mercury-60-Uranus. (I use an underline to denote an antiscion). This is one of the few charts in the set that could, taken by itself, denote a high score, although the lack of contacts for the 7th house team would be puzzling. This was the first chart I did, and after looking briefly at asteroids and Uranian planets I tried midpoints, and they seem to supply the missing factor. I decided to limit the midpoint contacts to those involving the angles, as those were the only ones that would serve to differentiate one game from the many others played that day at the same time. Some of the midpoints in this chart are SU/PL=SU/ME=MC; PL=ME/MC; POF=JU/ASC=ME/PL . There is a cluster of factors around 23-24 CP, including ASC/MC, UR/MC, SU, all are trine POF. I don't know if aspects between the POF and midpoints are valid, but the symbolism is certainly appropriate. I note that SA is square the ASC/DSC axis: I wonder what the score would be if that contact were absent! The Moon being VOC in a chart like this is very interesting. Frawley uses it to show the flow of events, but this one case alone has to call that interpretation into question.

Another chart in the series is New York Jets at Indiana Colts, played on Nov. 16, 2003, at 4:16:30 pm EST, in Indianapolis, IN. The line was Indiana -6, and the total number was 43. Here the only planet near an angle was Saturn, near the IC. The Moon makes several aspects, including a square to the Nodes, then the Sun, and finally an opposition to Uranus. Very different from the previous game. The midpoints JU/PL, JU/NN and ME/UR are near the angles. But in particular note the linkage between Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Pluto. Also, all four of these planets are linked to the angles by various aspects. Jupiter, in particular, is exactly -135- the ascendant. Indiana won 38-31.

One other is for Monday night football, Indiana at Tampa Bay, played on Oct.6, 2003, at 9:10 pm EDT. The line was Tampa Bay -5, and the totals number was 37. Indiana won 38-35 in overtime. First note Neptune on the MC, and the nodes right along the Asc, What is interesting is that the antiscion of the Asc is conjunct the IC, and the antiscion of the MC is conjunct the Dsc. Frawley doesn't mention antiscions of the Asc and MC, but if the antiscion of Fortuna is valid I can't see why that of the angles shouldn't be. Two separating contacts are PL-180-SA and SA-180-PL. Of more relevance might be R1(VE)-120-R10(UR), SU-180-MO/ASC, ME-180-ASC/MC, SU-0-POF and VE-0-JU/PL. Note in particular the very energetic linkage between Moon, Mars, Jupiter, and Uranus. Moon and Mars actually apply to Jupiter. The three planets all separate from Uranus, altho Mars applies to MO/UR and JU/UR.

All of the charts in this set seem to follow the same pattern, i.e., a group of planets, usually neither angular nor all ruling the angles, supplemented by a 'bunch' of midpoints which do involve the angles. Whether this signature is reliable enough to have predictive value remains to be seen. I have assumed that Frawley's rule about holding the various non-planetary points fixed and having planets apply to them should also apply to midpoints. If Frawley has discussed midpoints in horary charts elsewhere I would appreciate it if someone could scan in the material and email it to me, or post it here.

These three examples will serve to give an idea of what these charts look like. I invite your comments.

Bob
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leeleelee



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 79

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Results of an experiment, part 1 Reply with quote

Bulletbobb wrote:
I have just completed the first of a number of studies I plan to do to test some of Frawley's methods as presented in his sports astrology book, aka the pink book.

One of the problems in using game charts is the question of which team to put in the first house. I got to thinking that one way to avoid this, in a betting situation, is to bet the totals rather than the sides.


Thanks for the insight.

Guessing the totals is a good idea but there are just too many variables outside astrology to consider. An hour ago a WC qualifier game between Venezuela vs Bolivia has ended 5-3. That for a game of football (soccer) can be considered extremely high score. At this very moment, Colombia is playing Argentina in a VERY similar chart. Can we also expect a high scoring game?

Information for Venezuela vs Bolivia:
Estadio Polideportiv:
07N47'11'', 072W11'52''
Time: 6:40pm (GMT-4)
November 20, 2007.

Bob, can you see anything?

Bulletbobb wrote:

........ I wonder what the score would be if that contact were absent! The Moon being VOC in a chart like this is very interesting. Frawley uses it to show the flow of events, but this one case alone has to call that interpretation into question.


Moon VOC is ok, because Frawley considers aspects of the antiscia too.
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Ficina
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats on all your hard work, Bob. It's an interesting way of looking at things and, as you say, avoids the problem of which team gets the Asc.

I'm not sure which of John's methods you are testing out. You've mentioned several techniques which he wouldn't use, such as aspects to outer planets and outer planets as co-rulers. As for midpoints, I don't remember him ever mentioning them and would guess he doesn't use them as they would be too "modern".

Quote:
The Moon being VOC in a chart like this is very interesting. Frawley uses it to show the flow of events, but this one case alone has to call that interpretation into question

The Moon showing flow of events is just one of several ways of determining the result of a match. If it's VOC, then it's just a case of looking for other testimonies. If there aren't any, then he goes for the default option, i.e. the favourite will prevail. However, in my own experience I've found the VOC Moon often indicates a draw, unless other testimonies show otherwise.
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This answer is for Lee:

1> I have no interest in guessing the totals. If there is no reliable method for predicting them then I will abandon the quest.
2> It would seem to me that if there are factors outside astrology operating which do not show up in the game chart then I would think these factors would apply equally to predicting who would win. If that is true then everything in Frawley's book is pointless.
3> Your point about antiscia and the VOC Moon is well taken. I will check it out. I am now looking at a set of very low-scoring games, and at least one of those charts has a VOC Moon.
4> As to the game you mention, I have not developed this method to the point that I would try to predict which way the score would go. I gave you a pretty good idea of what I have noticed so far: why don't you try it yourself and let us know? I assume you have the exact starting time of the other game you mentioned? The fact that the starting times are 'very similar' (whatever that means) doesn't invalidate what I am doing. As I believe I mentioned in my post, I believe the use of midpoints and other factors involving the angles is necessary to separate those charts which are 'very similar'.

Before long I will do another test, this time using only games played at 1pm, and where there were both high and low scoring games. This should tell me whether the use of midpoints is the key to separating those games with otherwise similar charts.

Thanks for the input,

Bob
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Bulletbobb



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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reply is to Ficina.

As to which of Frawley's methods I'm testing, when I started doing the charts I carefully listed the various Frawley factors, but after awhile it became apparent that many of the charts didn't have many factors, one way or the other. At first this puzzled me, but then I realized that it what one would expect. For the purpose of this experiment I deliberately selected charts where the teams were fairly evenly matched and the scores were roughly equal, because I wanted to see what very high or very low scores looked like. Frawley's methods are designed to detect an imbalance in the results. Since these games are well-balanced one would expect either an even balance or no factors at all.

As to Frawley not using some of these things, what can I say? When I see Uranus parked right on the Asc of one of the highest scoring games in NFL history what am I supposed to do, ignore it? As far as midpoints go, why not? He uses Fortuna, which is much like a midpoint, and antiscions, which are much less used that midpoints. As to whether they are more or less valid I cannot say.

In all US sports except, I believe, hockey, a draw is not possible. A VOC Moon in a game scoring perhaps twice as many points as normal.... It has to make you wonder.

Bob
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aquirata



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 157
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting project you have here, Bob.

From what I can gather from your posts, here are a few observations that may be relevant:

1. Uranus on angles: It seems to be common experience that, whenever Uranus is involved in the chart, there will be something unusual about the event. This may mean high scoring, but could be many other things.

2. Antiscia: Although John is using these little creatures extensively, I'm not convinced they have such a general applicability. I tend to stick to basics.

3. Asteroids, Uranians: I would ignore these. The ancients worked with seven planets, and there is no evidence that I know of showing that modern astrologers are any more successful with modern techniques. Pluto for me falls in line with Ceres and Eris (the three dwarf planets), but Neptune and Uranus should be looked at.

4. Midpoints: Definitely need to be given attention. They work for the same reasons aspects do.

5. Aspect patterns: That's one of the keys in my view. You may want to look at John Nelson's work on radio reception.

Hope you'll find the above useful. Please keep us updated on your project.

Cheers,
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your input. Glad to see someone has read my post. I have done several similar studies since the one you read. I had planned to post them but the lack of interest has caused me to change my mind. Too much work to write the results up for the little feedback they generate.

I have seen enough charts now (about 100) to be able to say that I agree with Frawley in that UR and NE on the angles seem to have no consistent effect on the games, at least as far as winning or loosing is concerned. I'm sure they mean something, but it's not apparent in the end result. One thing I have found is that Frawley's view that Pluto on the angles is harmful to the favorites is not correct, at least as far as American football is concerned. I have 5 charts that I can recall where Pluto was within a degree or two of Asc or MC and the favorite won big. PL may not help the Favs, but it doesn't seem to hurt them.

In the test sets I have done I have found no reason to question what Frawley says about antiscia. In the Recent Advances book reference is made to an article by Davison in which he reports on a study he hade of them, in which he found them to be valid. Additional points beyond 'the basics' are necessary in this area because one needs ways to differentiate between the many charts on a given day which are otherwise similar. Using just the standard tools you would have to pass on most games as the charts would either be the same or there would be no factors operating.

I have found again and again and again that midpoints are valid in these charts. There is absolutely no question on that point. I am doing a study now of games that were won in overtime. My purpose is to try and get an idea of just what it is that these charts show, what do they measure. I think it is excitement, rather than scoring, per se. I speculate that a game won in OT (which is sudden death in American football) would always be exciting. In the first five charts I picked, 4 of the 5 had the Sun right on the MC! Aha!, says I. Then I realized that because all the charts were for 1:01:30 pm games that there might be a bias in the data. (True, but they were for different locations, which would move the Sun at least to some extent). So I put up another batch for nominal 4 pm games. These charts had nothing on the angles, and were quite ordinary. Even doing all the antiscia didn't help much. Then I decided to look at the MP's. Oh boy! What a difference! Like, wow! I can provide examples if anyone is interested.

There is no doubt that MP's are valid in these charts. Whether they have predictive value is another question. I haven't yet tried to work out just what rules they operate by, but there is no doubt they are valid.

I have Nelson's book around here somewhere. I'll check it out.

I have found that the Sun, unless it rules the 4th or 7th, seems to relate strongly to the favorite.

Frawley's teachings about the Moon do not seem to be valid for American football. It's apects over a four degree range are supposed to show the flow of the game. In the great majority of games the Moon doesn't make any aspects over the four degrees, and I have several charts for routs and big wins where it's VOC!. At the moment I am using it like any other planet, altho I suspect it does have some special significance.

My next test set will be of very boring games, to contrast with the exciting games. I propose to use games with very lopsided scores, like 40-0. What is less exciting than a game where one team fails to show up? I thought at first to use very low-scoring games, but several of the charts from that test set (I have two where the score was 3-0!) look very much like the charts from the high-scoring set. Low-scoring games are not necessarily unexciting, as soccer fans will testify.

I invite your comments.

Bob
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LaurieB



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I agree midpoints seem to be important, although I haven't really had time to check them in a significant number of charts yet.
I have noticed however that the charts I checked, that had unexpected results, all had active midpoints. Problem is I have no idea how to interpret those midpoints.
You wrote somewhere that you think it is the planetary qualities itself that should be interpreted, not their role as house rulers, but sometmes I get the impression that in some charts they only make sense in their capacity as house rulers, or as dispositors of Fortuna or the Moon. Take the Shaktar Donetsk-Benfica game: here the MC was on the midpoint of Mars and the North Node. Mars is also L4 and as such I think had something to do with the underdogs winning. Qestion is what and how?

Maybe I should go on checking more charts and a pattern will emerge.
I had a chart 2 days ago with the moon on the midpoint of ascendant/descendant. I expected a draw, but the game was cancelled!
I must try and find more cancelled games, I think, but that doesn't happen very often.

I am uncomfortable with midpoints; they are too abstract for me, too artificial. Yet they seem to "do" something, so I cannot ignore them....
Nor do I want to, but they are slippery, I think.
Oh well...
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Bulletbobb



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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing abstract or artificial about MP's, or slippery, either. I would suggest you limit yourself to those involving the angles and the rulers of the angles, to keep the list managable. Asc/MC, R1/Asc, R10/Asc, etc. Since the Sun seems to have something to do with the favorite, and the Moon should have something to do with something you might add them in.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to interpret what they mean, just look at what they do. If you limit contacts to the angles then the two planets involved will mean much the same as in an aspect. E.g., MA/JU=Asc will be pretty much like MA=JU, since the Asc has a rather broad meaning. Get COSI for meanings.

I can't say anything specific about the MP's just yet because my test sets aren't selected to investigate MPs. I just see them out of the corner of my eye, if you know what I mean.

Talking about eyes, you know the saying 'keep your eye on the prize'. What this is all about is the ability to pick winners. Yes, MPs play a role in describing the game, but do they have predictive power? What I would worry about is that you have so many MPs clustered around the angles that you can't predict anything. That's why you need to limit which one's you're looking at. You can drown in MPs if you're not careful. Antiscia are numerous but nothing at all like MPs.

Bob
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aquirata



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always read your posts with interest, Bob. Another option you may want to consider is to connect with those few people who seem to be responding to you regularly, outside of this forum. I have my own research programs on the go, and I tend to work by myself because it is very difficult to find true collaborators.

With respect to Uranus and Neptune, I don't doubt for a moment that their effect is much smaller than that of the seven ancient planets. So even if they have a definite effect with respect to the outcome, it would be much harder to observe. I am also convinced that Pluto is way overvalued today. It belongs with other dwarf planets in the hierarchy of things such as Ceres and Eris, and its impact on charts is nowhere near to planetary effects.

I will have to revisit antiscia based on your comments. Interestingly, I just received my copy of Matheseos Libri by Firmicus Maternus, and one section in it is devoted to a detailed explanation of antiscia, and how they enhance chart interpretation.

Your comment about the Sun is interesting. I have material from Carl Libra who advocated the use of the Overlord (Sun) for judging event charts. He didn't use it for favourites but in connection with finding the name of the winner in a horse race. Symbolically, the Sun would be a good indicator for the favourite as the King of the Court.

I wouldn't through the Moon out yet as significator for the flow. It is only one possible indicator, so just because it doesn't do anything in many charts, it doesn't necessarily means it's useless. If you examine charts where the Moon is in action, I'm sure you will find some correspondences.

Thanks again for posting, and I look forward to your next analysis.
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Last edited by aquirata on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bulletbobb



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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seem more evidence of Plutos lack of influence in these charts with this weekends NFL games, at least those played at 1:00 pm. In those charts the JU_PL conjunction is moving back and forth across the MC. Didn't seem to bother the favs any. Interesting charts, as they were for only a few minutes after a new moon. I think Pluto should be thought of as a planet astrologically because at the time of its discovery, and for many years thereafter, it was so considered. The other dwarf planets don't have the impact of Pluto because we knew when they were discovered that they weren't 'real' planets.

The new Moon in several of these charts enabled me to check another Frawley teaching, i.e., that in such charts the POF is on the Asc but its antiscion jumps around all over the place. Not really true. He is correct in that the POF is on the Asc, but the antiscion moves by the same amount as the ascendant. In some cases this could make a difference, but even here in the US the movement isn't as much as you might think. A few degrees. In the small countries in Europe there would be very little movement. But it does move more than Fortuna itself, so he is correct to that extent.

Regarding the Moon, I have looked at it in many charts (over a hundred now), and I have no doubt Frawley is wrong, at least where American football is concerned. I have seen many charts where it doesn't even aspect any midpoints, much less antiscia or planets. Also, you can see where Frawley fell into the trap he has tried to avoid with his whole method: the aspects made by the Moon will be the same for all games on a given day, except maybe for the POF or its antiscion. Therefore the flow of events should be the same, and they are not. I still think the Moon should have some special significance, tho I don't see what it is at the moment.

If 'aquirata' or anyone else having a serious interest in this subject would like to contact me privately, I invite you to send a email via this site.

Bob


Last edited by Bulletbobb on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aquirata



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

I agree with most of your observations. I ignore Pluto and all the rest of dwarfs and asteroids. The combination of nine planets and five aspects in signs and houses is still plenty to work with. I'm inclined to use the Moon for the favourite since one of its essential meanings is the public so it should speak to the public favourite in some way. Not convinced that Fortuna's placement or its antiscion should have any significance in these charts.

I have started a private discussion group on Yahoo called Sports Astrology to facilitate detailed discussion. You or anyone else may join at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sports-astrology/ or by sending a blank email to sports-astrology-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Hope to see you there!

A word of warning about your email address: spammers regularly scan websites for harvesting email addresses. You may wish to remove it from your post for this reason. Anyone can contact you by sending you a private message if you wish to exchange email addresses.
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that starting another group is a good idea. There is little out there on SA, and spreading it out in multiple forums only thins it out even more.

Hopefully, in the next day or so I will be receiving copies of Sophia Mason's research on sports astrology from her daughter. I believe this material is using the actual team charts.

I have five examples of her method using game charts, but have been unable to 'translate' them. I've got about half of it figured out, but I'm stumped. Anyone want to try their hand at it?

Bob
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