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Historical horary: engagement / partnership
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Historical horary: engagement / partnership Reply with quote

This chart is that of a horary published in a 20th century horary text. Some of you may have seen this chart before – if you have, just keep that information to yourself for now, because it will be a useful exercise for members to be able to look at the chart and test their own approach against it. I will give all the information available at the end of the month.

Feel free to study the chart in private or post comments on the chart in general or on specific details of it. There is a recorded outcome, but the author’s own approach is in some ways a mirror of his time, and that in itself will be worth looking at in hindsight.

There is not much information on the backdrop of the query. The question is cast for the time that the horary astrologer opened a letter from a client:

A lady, “desiring a little light” on her engagement.

That is not much to go on, but it gives you a chance to think about where you would go from there, the factors you would consider and the techniques you would use. For example, the author seems to ignore the early ascendant – would you?

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granny_skot



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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at 28 Can 20 Moon is also VOC, Jupiter and Mercury about 72degrees apart, I wouldnt' think a good angle, Saturn in the second house bodes ill for money, Mercury is in Jupiters terms in Cancer, and Jupiter has just left Mercury's terms in Aries. Jupiter is at home in the 9th house, as mercury (unless it is turning square soon, and I dont have a 19th century ephemeris handy to check) will next Square Jupiter, a difficult angle I think.

I would say that Murcury will break it off.

Granny.
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Historical horary: engagement / partnership Reply with quote

Deb wrote:


There is not much information on the backdrop of the query. The question is cast for the time that the horary astrologer opened a letter from a client:

A lady, “desiring a little light” on her engagement.

That is not much to go on, but it gives you a chance to think about where you would go from there, the factors you would consider and the techniques you would use. For example, the author seems to ignore the early ascendant – would you?



Hi Deb,

What type of enagement are we speaking about ? Marriage or some other type of "engagement"?

RC
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the receptions:

She adores him (Moon, L1 and Venus in exaltation of L7, L1 combust)

She is indecisive and uncertain (L1 in own terms only)

She either has or is about to go back on a decision or change her mind (Venus R - Should really look at the ephemeris for the details but I'm too lazy right now!) - Maybe she's doubting him at the moment - which makes sense given the question!!

He doesn't return her affections much (L7 and Sun in no major dignities of querent's significators - except Sun in sign of Moon, which isn't that great) - but he does think highly of himself (L7 and Sun in mutual reception by exaltation!)

The Moon being at the end of L7's exaltation and moving into the sign of the Sun and triplicity of L7 shows a cooling of her feelings for him - maybe she'll come down to earth a little. But she will still care for him - the Moon will still be in reception with both of his significators. So I'm not sure she'll break it off - but maybe she'll clear her head a little!

The tight square from Venus to Saturn doesn't look too good, with mutual negative reception - is this the husband? The ex? If this were a modern-day chart I'd say it's the perfect picture of a married woman pining for her young lover because her husband is physically no longer interested in her - both sets of significators are in negative reception of Saturn (the husband spoiling their fun), and Saturn (the husband) adores his wife (Saturn in sign and exaltation of L1) but is physically unattracted to or unable to please her (Saturn in fall of Venus, significator of the woman's sexual being).

In answering the question, I'd say this engagement is going nowhere because: 1. The man just isn't that interested in her (lack of positive mutual reception). 2. Separating aspects: L1 separates from the Sun (again, should really check the ephemeris at this point), the Moon is VOC and about to change sign showing her feelings will change. 3. Venus is R and about to square a nasty Saturn that she hates and means her harm, perhaps showing an external event or factor which will prevent the affair developing further?


Anyway that's my tuppence'orth, apologies for getting a little carried away with the potential melodrama in the 2nd to last paragraph Lala Happy

Interested to see what anyone else has to say!

Keren


*** I agree with the post mentioning this is a premature question (early ASC, and I'd agree it looks like unrequited love - he's just not that into her, as I mentioned already with the receptions... I certainly would advise this lady to transfer her affections to a more worthy object!)


Last edited by kerenhappuch on Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Deb,

What type of enagement are we speaking about ? Marriage or some other type of "engagement"?


RC

Sorry, I should have made that clearer - the lady is asking for some astrological illumination of the prospect of her marriage engagement. That is, she is engaged already - so there must be some concern in her mind about whether the marriage will go ahead.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Historical horary: engagement / partnership Reply with quote

Deb wrote:


A lady, “desiring a little light” on her engagement.

That is not much to go on, but it gives you a chance to think about where you would go from there, the factors you would consider and the techniques you would use. For example, the author seems to ignore the early ascendant – would you?



The marriage will go ahead after some delay- probably 10months time.
A female admirer/relative of the quesited (Venus in exaltation sign of jupiter and the exaltation of venus falls in the 7th house)will try to obstruct- retrograde application of venus to jupiter. But, she will not succeed, as she is prevented form doing so by friends of groom-Saturn rules 11th from the 7th- these friends have overall control of quesited as Jupiter is in Aries- Mars is in a sign of Saturn and Saturn is in turn ruled by the Querent!!

I will attend,uninvited,if time travel is permitted.

PD
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Deb.

Okay, I can see how someone would go the other way on this entirely, but this is what I came up with being that I'm so optimistic these days being in my Jupiter phase. Laughing (Plus I just like happy endings.)

At a glance I'd say she's a bit put off by his behavior maybe. She's not sure if he's trustworthy or not and is hesitant as to whether she should go through with the engagement. His ruler being Pisces, may be a problem. There's always something hidden or hard to understand about Pisces and it may be she just doesn't feel she knows him enough or has enough information about him and is having a problem with that.

Something is throwing up caution flags. I'd say that was Saturn which is in first quadrant, and being that she's the dispositor of Saturn which is giving her a gut feeling (ruler of her 5th romance, and 6th health - ill feelings in her gut) that she just isn't sure about going through with this. It may be that is causing her to slow down and be more cautious in going ahead with the engagement.

Being combust, it shows *she* has the cold feet, rather than him. Being early in the ASC may show that she has not gotten to know him well enough to make this decision with confidence or that she got into the whole thing too soon for her comfort. Or the early degree could be showing that she is jumping to conclusions about something and needs to let things smooth out a bit.

The last time she was with him didn't seem to go that well as Venus is retrograde. Venus could be acting as his almuten ruler here so I guess that could be that he's changing his mind about things as well. After her last meeting with him it looks like things came to a standstill or that she didn't want to proceed any further. After that last meeting with Venus, Moon went VOC.

But Moon is also the dispositor of the whole situation it looks like (it rules all the 11th house planets) - so it all appears to be her decision I'd say. Moon likes the sign of cancer and is strong there and so she may have been reluctant to move forward into Leo where she might not be so comfortable. But it looks like she can move forward if she wants to and I think that maybe she did in spite of Saturn for the following reasons:

Her ruler Mercury is Conjunct Sun (tho separating - second thoughts?). Although you could read it as causing the stage fright, or cold feet, it’s also the man in a woman's romance chart.

Also her ruler, Mercury Squares His ruler, Jupiter which receives/welcomes the Square as Jupiter is exalted in cancer. Jupiter is also in the house of weddings/9th which can be used to confirm marriage. Confirming more on weddings/legalization, her ruler, Mercury and the Sun both conjunct the Part of Weddings.

The Sun also Squares the Part of Marriage, which is in Aries, a sign the Sun likes, (is exalted in and attracted to).

Finally, when the Moon does get around to changing signs into Leo, Moon will trine Part of Marriage and sextile his co-ruler Neptune.

RC
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Goca



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Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of that combust Me, serious debility, VOC Moon and peregrine Ju, althought there will be the aspect between Me nad Ju I think thay will not marry.
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m eager to give a bit of feedback on some of the comments that have been made, but I’ll try not to be too revealing because I want to give members who only dip into the forum now and then a chance to look at this without being influenced.

Some of the comments have come very close to what was actually published. Some have made a different conclusion, and yet the reasoning was very sound. This is one of the things that will be useful to consider in hindsight. In fact, all of the responses here have something impressive about them.

In some ways this chart responds to the expectation of the astrologer who cast the chart, and one element that he felt was significant has not been touched upon yet. It should be, even though most horary astrologers would probably not recognise it as traditional technique – I might give a clue to that later on. But even so, the chart should be reliable as a whole, so in the end I don’t think anyone should be able to say “this chart clearly supports the opposite of what the astrologer judged”. I think we will all end up agreeing that the chart is descriptive of what happened.

I am just going to pick up a few points from the posts, where I feel the reasoning could be improved by some clarification, or is blighted by a technical confusion. Please understand that I am deliberately avoiding the strongest points in anyone’s post, because these speak for themselves and will be referred to at the end when the outcome is revealed.

Granny:
Quote:
Mercury is in Jupiters terms in Cancer, and Jupiter has just left Mercury's terms in Aries. Jupiter is at home in the 9th house

Mercury is in the exaltation of Jupiter as well as its terms, which is even more significant. I’m not sure what it means that Jupiter has just left Mercury’s terms, except that this shows there is no reception from Mercury to Jupiter in the applying square. Traditionally, you wouldn’t consider Jupiter to be ‘at home’ in the 9th house. (Jupiter rejoices in the 11th house and the Sun rejoices in the 9th). It would generally be considered a weakening principle for the quesited’s significator to be cadent from an angle.

Keren
Mercury, L1, has dignity by face so it is not peregrine, and it’s not retrograde. It’s not in a tight square with Saturn either. It looks like in places you might have confused Mercury with Venus which is retrograde and in a tight square with Saturn, though it is in its own term so not peregrine.
(I know you follow John Frawley’s theory on reception which is different from its traditional use, so I won’t question the technicalities of that).

PD
Quote:
The marriage will go ahead after some delay- probably 10months time.

Presumably based on the fact that there are about 10 degrees separating Mercury from its square to Jupiter? By the way, I will just mention here that the separation between Mercury and Jupiter is 9.21. This is outside the standard orb of 8 degrees which is traditionally allowed between these planets, but it is just inside the allowance made by the widest list of orbs, which considers them as ‘within orb’ when they are up to 9.30 degrees apart (see http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html ). The author didn’t seem to be aware of the wider allowance of orb because he refers to these two planets as ‘having no aspect but hastening to a square aspect’. I would personally allow this as an applying square that is wide in orb.

Square aspects are difficult, and they present a problem. Either the two people are able to overcome the problem (as shown by strong, essentially dignified significators, and reception) or the problem overcomes them and stops the agreement occurring. Hence (here is the point I am getting to), to judge a time of marriage based on an applying square, I think there needs to be some justification of why this difficult aspect is able to symbolise a union, rather than an increasing resistance to the union. Is there secondary support for this? Is there a helpful reception to show willingness to overcome the problem? Is one or both of the significators strong enough by accidental or essential fortitude to demonstrate the power to overcome the problem? (This is really a general point that I wanted to make, which was convenient to tuck onto yours.)
Quote:
A female admirer/relative of the quesited (Venus in exaltation sign of jupiter and the exaltation of venus falls in the 7th house)will try to obstruct- retrograde application of venus to jupiter.

This is an important point, especially so because the Moon is separating from its recent conjunction with Venus, showing something that is vital to the backdrop of this query. The reference to the female is obvious, but why does this have to be an admirer or relative of the quesited?

RC
My general observation on your post is that if I were the client I would be a bit unsure as to whether you think the marriage will/won’t/should/shouldn’t go ahead. You’ve made some good points, but you made them so well, both in favour of the engagement breaking and then in favour of why it can go ahead, that I'm a little confused as to what you think eventually happned. Overall it seems that you view this matter as resting entirely in the querent’s hands – so I suppose I am correct in saying that you don’t see the quesited breaking off the relationship with the querent?
The astrologer’s feedback is brief but it does state whether or not the marriage went ahead. Even if you only do this in private I think it will be useful for you to make a definite judgement on which of these happened. (Sorry, if you think you have done this – I just didn’t see that very clearly myself).

Goca
Your post was so sweet and to the point, you must be wondering how I could possibly pick out a point to challenge you with ...
Ok, that’s hard, but at least you give me a chance to present a clue. Like several others you have referred to the Moon as VOC, but the astrologer did not consider this Moon as VOC or treat it as such. Even in older traditional technique it was quite usual for astrologers to look at the Moon’s last aspect and its next aspect to indicate something about the backdrop and the future, even if these were out of orb or out-of-sign. Looking at these two planetary contacts tells us something about what has happened and what is about to happen - they describe details which the astrologer picked out in his judgement: two facts which were later admitted by the querent. It would be really interesting to see if anyone can see these too .... some of you have come very close.

I’ll try to be quiet on this now, (at least for a while). I'm in admiration of everyone who has shared their comments. I can tell you this - it is all so much easier when you already know the answer Smile If anyone else wishes to add a voice or throw in a different perspective, please do.
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RC



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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb:

I'm glad you gave us some feedback before the end of the month.

But to clarify, I do think she went through with it. I thought I had said that here:

"But it looks like she can move forward if she wants to and I think that maybe she did in spite of Saturn for the following reasons:" ....

To be clearer still though, I believe she did marry because there are several aspects to show it was legalized as I mentioned above.

Were we supposed to post this as though we were giving the client the reading?

I will look for more info now after your feedback.

RC

P.S. I don't think Venus here is another love interest woman here. I speculated it could be representing his Almuten ruler but now I'm thinking it could be an interfering mother (10th house ruler) who is changing her mind about allowing the union to go forth.

I will study this some more. As I offered in my first post, it seemed things changed when Moon met up with Venus and they then disagreed on some things and things didn't go too well.

..
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Were we supposed to post this as though we were giving the client the reading?


No, no – I hope I didn’t leave the impression that any kind of format must be followed. This is really just a scribble board for notes and ideas and any approach is welcome. That was just my personal observation, that I wasn’t sure whether you were arguing for a would, should, could or vice versa. I did think you were saying yes but thanks for clarifying.

I must chain my arms by my side now, to stop myself saying more. It is hard ... I don't know how Tom keeps his mystery charts secret for so long ...
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spirlhelix



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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: "Shedding some Light" Reply with quote

Hi, Deb!

There are some very interesting things about this chart. Shedding light, indeed! It appears that a few things need to come out of the dark and into the light of day.

The querent is represented by the Moon and Mercury, both combust the Sun.

Mercury is separating from a conjunction with the Sun. Sun is ruler of the twelfth house. Moon, now combust, is about to enter the rulership of Sun.

A new Moon, the conjunction of the Sun and Moon, represents a recent time of hidden activity. It looks like the lady has a secret lover (Sun). The Moon's combustion suggests that the querent is heavily influenced by a Sun someone ( a male other than her potential mate, Jupiter). She is about to enter the rulership of the Sun; ready to fall in love with him.

The Moon is Void of Course; there is a square between the quesitor and quesited. . . reception of Jupiter (21 Aries 19) for Mercury (11 Cancer) has just gone from terms to nonexistent. So whereas before he was willing to play the role demanded of him as a fiancee, regardless of the fact that he was not deeply in love with her, as of recently (the past nineteen minutes as Jupiter left terms of Mercury) he is indifferent to the querent. These three signs indicate that the upcoming square will show the engagement being broken off.

The querent's mother, Venus, still holds up the finacee's side (Cancer exalts Jupiter). But she wants to come to an understanding with her daughter, as Mercury is drawing to a conjunction with Venus and Venus is in the rulership of the Moon (querent).

Perhaps the querent, once in Leo, will align herself more strongly with the Sun man, since her parents don't seem to approve of this match. Once allied with the Sun (Moon in the sign of Leo), the daughter faces an opposition with her father, Mars in Aquarius.

Thanks, Deb, for sharing this fascinating chart!

Regards,

Pam
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granny_skot



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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

darn I always think of Jupiter as home in 9 because of the travel, law, expansion qualities of Jupiter and the travel adn law qualities of 9th house, I suppose i need to cut that out, As for Jupirter being just out of mercury term, what I mean is Mercury has terms got 14 to 21 degrees of aries and Jupiter is at 21 Aries 19 so is 19 degrees(oops that should be minutes sorry) into Mars Terms, and is in Sun Face and Sun Triplicity ergo NOT in Mercury Terms, yes? And Sun Exaltation

Where as Mercury at 11 CAncer is in Jupiter Terms and exaltation as you kindly pointed out, and humorously enough in Mercury Face.

I'm surprised that they wouldn't consider Moon VOC, yes it recently aspected Venus, but wont aspect another planet (recognized by a 19th century Astrologer) oh wait they did recognize Uranus... that would be less than 5 degrees to a Trine, suggesting some okind of chaos or confusion possibly a changing of mind in some isntance, and Uranus in Venus sign so possibly Jupiter changing mind about whoever the Venus interloper is..

Granny


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Tracey



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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to find time to have a look at this chart when I find the time but what jumped out at first glance is that this is a case of unrequited love. The querant is somehow obscured from the object of her affection so perhaps she is admiring this person from afar. She may be lower down on the social scale than he is but that does not stop her from expressing her hopes and dreams as shown by the 11th House. the acquaintance of this person may be through a friend, perhaps of her sister. He may be a traveller or someone much more educated than she is.

Will look later at the technical details.

Tracey
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

What a great approach to hosting a mystery horary! Amidst all the interesting discussion, what intrigues me the most is your comment,

Quote:
In some ways this chart responds to the expectation of the astrologer who cast the chart, and one element that he felt was significant has not been touched upon yet. It should be, even though most horary astrologers would probably not recognise it as traditional technique -


I am wondering and wondering what this "element" could be (a mystery within a mystery). I suspect it is something obvious astrologically such as a luminary or angle. There is one thing that has always puzzled me about the difference between natal and horary. In natal work, the Sun-Moon-Ascendant are always paramount. In contrast, in horary only the Moon-Ascendant are always paramount, but not the Sun. IOW, unless the Sun is a significator regards the question, it fades into the background of the chart (as if the brightest light of the whole lot could ever fade!). Ignoring the Sun would be unthinkable in natal work - or even mundane work. I hope the "element" you hint at has to do with a traditional technique for the Sun, something to be mindful of in every horary chart. The 'absent luminary' approach in horary has never felt quite balanced to me.

... on the edge of my seat waiting to hear

Christina
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