Hello all,
Erecting a chart to ask a question (subject of which I cannot reveal right now) I was surprised to find both the Ascendant and the Moon are in what Lilly (CAp118) calls 'Deep Degrees', where the querent is in a ditch, from which he or she needs help to get out!

Apologies to my horary friends if this is an obvious question (and I have missed something), but having trawled the forum to find an answer to my question, I am none the wiser. Does anyone know what being in the ditch actually means? Apart from calling a breakdown service and needing a cup of tea, where will help come from? Another astrologer? Outside influences? Inner attitude? Or is it that more information is needed, so that one puts the 'deep degree' chart aside, to wait until more information is available, for a more suitable moment? To do the latter wouldn't make sense, though, as Olivia Barclay would say, there is only one time for the question: the moment the astrologer receives it.

What I am actually asking is can I read this chart, if in my own mind, I believe I have ?received? help on the topic?
Or are there more stringent rules?
I appreciate any thoughts on this.
With gratitude,
Laura

Hi Laura,

I have never heard of "deep degrees". What are they? In what context does Lilly mention them? (Sorry, I don't have a full copy of CA )

Keren

There is a table listing the "deep" or "pitted" degrees on page 116. Lilly says on page 118:

Degrees deep or pitted presented in the fourth column have this signification, that if either the Moon or the degree ascending or the Lord of the Ascendant be in any of them, it shows the Man at a stand in the question he asks, not knowing which way to turn himself, and that he had need of help to bring him into a better condition; for as a man cast into a Ditch does not easily get out without help, so no more can this querent in the case he is without assistance.

I get two things from this:

1) It could simply describe the state of the querent. It seems pretty obvious that any querent wouldn't know which way to turn for if he did, he would have no need of the astrologer. So this may just be descriptive of the type of question. "Should I marry Sweet Sue or he sister?" Perhaps the three significators are in aspect and coming to perfection, so he needs help figuring out which one to marry.

2) As to where the help might come from, check the receptions.

It's tough to figure out without context, but I hope this helps. You might also want to post this on the horary forum.

Tom

Thanks Tom,

Bless you. That's great advice, I will double check all the receptions. I will also mull over the state of the querent (me) in regards to the question.

When the time is right I will post the chart (apologies for my 8th house overload!!) - in the horary section.

Hi Keren,
The Degree List is also here on Skyscript, on the front page under 'degree influences'.

Thanks again,
Laura

What is the basis of the 'Tables of the Signs' found on page 116 of Christian Astrology? It is quite obvious that Lilly says they are valid to both horary and natal astrology. I did not find great use of this table in my notes on Christian Astrology, although Lilly does comment the Azimen degrees (lame and deficient) on page 250:

Lilly, page 250 C.A:
When you find the Lord of the sixth afflicted by the square or opposition of the Lord of the ascendant in Azime degrees, a signification for the physician, the disease is uncurable and the sick party continually pained.

In my search to find some food for thought on this topic, I did come across some notes from Al-Birumi page 353-6 regarding 'dark' and 'anxious signs'. Al-Birumi says that "Leo, Scorpio and Capricorn are dark and anxious, while Virgo and Libra are a suspicion of trouble." I thought we might reflect upon these statements while we were at it.

Now lets start to work on the meaning of those 'deep' and 'pitted' degrees. There are many instances where the querent or quesitive may appear to 'hide' his or her cards, or matters are 'not so readily disclosed'. Instances come to mind where matters seemed to be moving forward so perfectly before there was a situation of 'sudden retrenchment'. If a querent is 'deeply' involved into a matter, this certainly reveals a degree of complexity to the question at hand. I think that with falling stock markets many people may have got into commitments that are 'awkward to maneuver' and 'get out of'. My guess would be that when the significators appear in 'deep' or 'pitted' degrees, matters have been left unattended and gone too far, or there is danger of such if issues are neglected. Maybe we could call the deep and pitted degrees for 'sticky' degrees. A car under such representation could be heavy on the steering (?). Such issues need to be looked at and require maintenance and attendance.

Regards from Norway!

Still digging around to see what else is written on the 'pitted' degree. H.L.Cornell mentions them in his Encyclopedia of Medical Astrology (which I think is useful as a reference of curiosities rather than absolutes);

Cornell: The ascendant or its lord in any of these degrees makes the native subject to deep marks by scars or the pockmarks of smallpox. They also cause an impedition in the speech.

Of greater interest are probably the writings of Al-Biruni on 'Degrees of Increasing' or 'Diminishing' Fortune. Lilly mentions the degrees of increasing fortune. Lilly's 'deep' or 'pitted' degrees are identical to Al-Birumi's degrees of diminishing fortune;

Al-Biruni: The former are those in which if the lord of the period, whether Sun or Moon, or the degree of the ascendant or the part of fortune is situated, the good luck and power of each is doubled. The latter are like pits in which the planets are enfeebled in their action, being neither able to effect good if lucky nor evil if unlucky - the tendency is therefore towards peace.

That seems to give several options. Comments

Hi Andrew, thanks for all those comments ? but I have no idea why Lilly thought certain degrees deep and pitted. I think it?s a question for Deb, perhaps?

My own personal Astro-plot thickened when I deemed it necessary to go deeper into my project research*. Bizarrely one of the first things the person I asked the question about actually mentions how they were in a ditch themselves! Their very words ? How literal! So I am taking this synchronicity as a sign that I am, in fact, heading out of my pit, into some kind of illumination about my quest, albeit slowly, but surely, while Mars retrogrades my Sun-Mercury connections.

* Promise I will reveal the question when the article is complete. In a way you are right, ?matters are not so readily disclosed?!

With best wishes from Southern France