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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Historical horary: engagement / partnership
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops!

Yes, I was confusing Venus with Mercury a little there...!!!

I'll go back and edit my post a little! Also, I'm afraid to say I was being lazy and didn't get out the table of dignities or the ephemeris *blush* so I missed Mercury being in his/her own terms.

I know Frawley's methods may be a little controversial but they have always worked for me so I'll be interested to see how they (or more accurately, my application of them!!) work out with this non-contempary chart Smile

Keren
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



I am popping a copy of the chart here to keep it handy on the latest page. I'll reply to a few of the comments soon when I am not so busy as I am right now.

Keren, I agree that it can be useful to test different approaches out, which is why I don't have a policy of allowing only traditional approaches on the horary forum; though from time to time it seems useful to remind members that Frawley's approach to reception would be the wrong way to understand the way it is used in traditional works such as Bonatti's and Lilly's, etc.


Last edited by Deb on Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should we add new posts when we want to add to our original reading or edit our prior reading as Keren is doing?

I see more I'd like to add but not sure how you'd prefer it.

RC
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't really have a plan for this, but if you'd prefer to keep one post and edit it that's fine by me. If you do that, I'll try to keep the thread logical and take out any of my redundant comments that refer to passages that no longer exist.

There's a certain amount of making this up as we go along involved here Smile

Deb
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:

PD


Quote:
A female admirer/relative of the quesited (Venus in exaltation sign of jupiter and the exaltation of venus falls in the 7th house)will try to obstruct- retrograde application of venus to jupiter.

This is an important point, especially so because the Moon is separating from its recent conjunction with Venus, showing something that is vital to the backdrop of this query. The reference to the female is obvious, but why does this have to be an admirer or relative of the quesited?
.


I went for an admirer of the quesited because venus is in the exaltation sign of jupiter and applying to jupiter.Venus is posited in the 5th house from 7th . A relation, because 4th is also a house of grandparents and Taurus is on the 10th(4th from 7th)

Why so much optimism even from a distant square ?.My hope was that the two main planets are inherent benefics, and the fact that the heavens are protecting by interposing another planet to prohibit the square of venus to jupiter and, this is done by Saturn which is being disposed by mercury.Lastly,cancelling an engagement would need stronger testimony and because the engagement is already done, I would consider the square of benefics as a nigglling doubt rather than a broken engagement.

PD
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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Location: usa

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keren and Deb,

Help! Unless I am missing something, Venus 24Cancer50rx and Saturn 24Virgo10 are sextile (not square per both posts Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:46 pm and Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:14 am )

Christina
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a sextile between Venus and Saturn, yes. There's a tight sextile between Venus and Saturn and a wide square between Mercury and Saturn. In only partly correcting one error, I helped to perpetuate another - sorry !
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Tracey



Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 61
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What fantastic replies, this is really enjoyable.

Having jumped to the wrong conclusion initially, it looks more like it is a financial reason that is driving this lady to query her engagement since both her own and the quesited’s 1st and 2nd houses each have the same sign and sign rulers – Mercury and Jupiter – thereby tying the querant to her security and that of her fiancee. Saturn is so close to the 2nd House cusp and is the anchor of this chart since the tight sextile with Venus, her co-significator, is one of the few aspects that show what is currently taking place and the Moon has also sextiled Saturn; the rest have all separated (Mercury/Sun, Moon/Venus; Moon/Jupiter). Having previously thought that she was the less-advantaged of the two, it looks increasingly like she is in the stronger financial situation and that she is currently enjoying greater security than she may have done previously by coming into money via her mother perhaps or through securing work, which elevates her social status and leads her to a moment of doubt over whether she really needs to marry (having said that, it is difficult to work out whether this is an arranged marriage or one of choice given the times and that Mercury is combust and separating from the Sun showing that she was overpowered but nonetheless enamoured). She may feel her fiancée is a spendthrift or unreliable financially, and being the practical person she is (Virgo Asc), she could be worried about his impulsive spending habits (Jupiter in Aries).

The astrologer chose to ignore the 00 degree ascendant because it is too early to tell whether her new (financial) situation will make any difference or be a long term situation. The 00 degrees would not reflect on the engagement itself but rather the new developments. The engagement will go ahead since so many aspects have already taken place, therefore so have the arrangements, and Venus is the only applying aspect to the quesited’s significator - Jupiter - and because she is retrograde, her current ambivalence – if you can call it that - is likely to change. Saturn cements the engagement since he prohibits the applying square to Jupiter, which might have suggested she would break it off. The Moon does not make any more aspects before changing signs, and even after (?) unless you take into account the square to Uranus, which would definitely change matters; other than that, arrangements will stay the same.

Placing things in context of the times, and as someone else suggested, if Uranus is the untraditional aspect that was used, then I would suggest the situation will change dramatically, perhaps because of something that suddenly comes to light (if the astrologer used the modern rulership system and assigned Uranus as ruler of the 6th, which equals the questited's 12th house of secrets). I am ducking down at that last suggestion in case you throw the book at me!

Tracey
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject: NEW TWIST Reply with quote

NEW TWIST

Thanks for the interesting recent additions. It's time to add a new twist to this chart. This won’t affect the judgement of the last chart, but it gives us something new and interesting to think about. Anyone who wants to contribute a judgement on the original question can still do so. Anyone who has already done so will be familiar with the chart by now, so might want to offer another. The new twist is this:

This astrologer obviously had a busy professional practice, and in the days before easy access by email and telephone, (remember this is 1892) most of his horary requests came by letter. On this morning he opened two letters at 9:00 am, the time he set the chart (or we can guess that it was within a minute or two of this time). He used the same chart to answer both questions. Now you will understand the confusing header of this thread “engagement/partnership” – the other letter asked for advice on whether it would be wise to enter into a business partnership with another person.

Again, we get no information on the backdrop of the query, or what kind of business partnership was being proposed, so we have to use what is in the chart and our knowledge of standard horary technique to decide what his answer might have been. Anyone want to have a go? Would you advise the querent for or against the notion of entering into a business partnership with another person based on this chart? And why?

I should point out that on this part of the question we get no official confirmation of what the querent went on to do. We only know what the original astrologer advised and what the astrological reasoning was. In a way this is disappointing but it also forces us to consider whether our standard techniques are as standard and universally understood as we think they are. I would definitely have made the same judgement as the astrologer, based on this chart, although my emphasis might have been slightly different.

(To avoid confusion, I suggest keeping your posts on the engagement and partnership separate, and put ENGAGEMENT or PARTNERSHIP at the start of your post).

Looking forward to your comments
Deb

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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: PARTNERSHIP Reply with quote

The signs of the times would help:

1892: The business partnership fails the engagment survives.
2007: In Boom time- partnership goes on, the engaement would not have survived.

PD
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we use astrology to get a sign of the times, and some knowledge of the future, so we should be able to see the answer for both of these questions just using the horary that relates to them, I think Smile
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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Location: usa

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: NEW TWIST Reply with quote

Deb wrote:

Now you will understand the confusing header of this thread “engagement/partnership” – the other letter asked for advice on whether it would be wise to enter into a business partnership with another person.
.... Would you advise the querent for or against the notion of entering into a business partnership with another person based on this chart? And why?



I'm not sure if the partnership question was about a particular person the querent was thinking of going into business with or if it was just a general sort of question as to whether he should take on a partner? Can you clarify more or was that not clear?

RC
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi RC

The specific question is:

"Would partnership be wise with a certain party?"

So it seems safe to assume that a particular person is in mind, rather than that the question is being asked about the prospect of partnership generally.

Hope this makes things clearer,

Deb
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: The ENGAGEMENT question

The querent is held in high esteem by her fiance, being both in his exaltation and term. He, on the other hand, is not in any of her dignities, so she doesn't think so highly of him. There does not seem to be sufficient reception or dignity here to overcome the difficulties posed by the square. It is likely that her fiance is overseas, or at least quite far away, being in the 9th, and has not been behaving particularly well, being peregrine and in the rulership and terms of a peregrine malefic in a cadent house.

These factors, combined with the Moon's next aspect being the square to Uranus (signifying separation), make me think that the querent herself will break off the engagement.

Tara
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