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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Who Invented Solar Arc Directions?
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom, Mark, and everyone,

And sorry if my previous posts added to the confusion. Let me state again that Morin definitely did not accept solar arc directions, or indeed any form of symbolic motion. Tom is quite right that he would have scorned to use them.

Solar arcs, however, are what Kepler's comments seem to amount to. Morin brings them up only to refute them, in the context of a discussion on various 'keys' used for primary directions. Morin (as Andrew said) rejected a great deal, but he seems to have had it in for Kepler in particular. There is a lovely passage somewhere in AG where Morin quotes Kepler on the subject of the relationship between angels and planets, and goes on to say something to the effect that 'this shows that Kepler understands as little about angels as he does about astrology'. Laughing

On the subject of primary directions, perhaps it will not be out of place to mention that The Wessex Astrologer will publish a full-length book on the subject next years, written for non-mathematicians.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Martin,

I thought your post was clear enough in terms of Morin disagreeing with Kepler here on this technique.

No doubt Kepler's innovations regarding the aspects didn't endear him to Morin either.

Quote:
On the subject of primary directions, perhaps it will not be out of place to mention that The Wessex Astrologer will publish a full-length book on the subject next years, written for non-mathematicians.


Thats interesting. Do you know who the author is? So far I only have Sepharial's 'Directional Astrology' on the subject. As one of the 'mathematically challenged' this book sounds like it was written for me.


Last edited by Mark on Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

I'm afraid I indulged in a bit of self-promotion there. Smile I am working on the last few chapters right now. The working title is Primary Directions: Astrology's Old Master Technique(alluding to the term as used in art history).
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Martin,

Quote:
I'm afraid I indulged in a bit of self-promotion there. I am working on the last few chapters right now. The working title is Primary Directions: Astrology's Old Master Technique(alluding to the term as used in art history).


Hardly any need to apologise! This is exciting news. I am sure there is a small army of traditional enthusiasts like myself who would really welcome a book like yours covering the basic groundwork on primary directions. I have always felt it was one of the more elusive areas of the art.

When do you expect your book to be published next year?

I do hope skyscript get a complementary copy so we can see a review on the site next year too. Very Happy

Good luck with your final chapters!
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When do you expect your book to be published next year?

No date has been set, but hopefully early in the year.

Quote:
I do hope skyscript get a complementary copy so we can see a review on the site next year too.

I shall talk to the publisher about it. Smile Thanks for your good wishes!
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
... I do intend to get Rumen Kolev's books and his software (when my ship comes in!)


Don't forget that my free program does Placidus mundo and zodiacal directions using Rumen's formulations:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6qirr/myindex.html

His program is of course much more flexible and covers many other kinds of primaries. But for the ones mine does, the results are the same as his.

Quote:
...It seems hard to deny that the definition of Kepler's technique, as described by Morin, exactly matches the modern approach to solar arcs?


From what I've read as translation on this thread so far, I have to agree with you. But I haven't read Morin directly.

- Ed
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed F wrote:
Don't forget that my free program does Placidus mundo and zodiacal directions using Rumen's formulations:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6qirr/myindex.html

There is also a free online program here, for those not daunted by a few terms in German:
http://www.astrotexte.ch/sources/primaries.jsp
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Ed,

Thanks for that. I was aware of your free programme but I haven't had my own internet provider for a while so been just logging in from work and at friends. However, once I sort this out I will definitely download your free programme. Its very nice of you to share this with others.

Rumen Kolev's programme does look the flagship of primary directions software but it is very expensive.

I do think its a pity that the recently updated version of solar fire didn't include anything on primary directions. I would have thought this would have been the most in demand upgrade amongst traditionalists.

More than anything though I want to spend time understanding the principles of primary directions before I start using any software. Hence I look forward to Martin's book very much. In the meantime I will probably see how I get on with Rumen Kolev's books. Which one would you suggest I start with?
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

Actually, I've heard that SF6 does provide some form of primary directions. The question, though, is what flavor? As you can see even from this thread, sometimes terminology is used differently (and even in the opposite sense, eg converse vs direct) by different writers. So you could have an explanation in the program's documentation and still not know for certain what they're doing. I think one of the greatest contributions of Rumen's booklets is his "rationalization" of the terminology and notation for listing directions.

His two main booklets are Primary DIrections I & II, which I would read in that order. I have his third one, but don't remember the specific contents. It's optional and can be ready afterwards. The main booklets are inexpensive, something like US$15 each.

- Ed
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding software, Solar Fire does Placidean primary directions, but only in mundo (no zodiacal aspects). Kolev's program is much more versatile, but unfortunately also bug-ridden and very user-unfriendly. (My book on primary directions will contain software reviews.)
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
His two main booklets are Primary DIrections I & II, which I would read in that order. I have his third one, but don't remember the specific contents. It's optional and can be ready afterwards. The main booklets are inexpensive, something like US$15 each


Thanks Ed.

I decided to go all out and order all of Rumen Kolev's books on Primary Directions from the Astrology Center of America. These are:

1 Primary Directions I

2 Primary Directions II

3 Primary Directions of Regiomontanus and William Lilly

Hopefully, these will help me to be better informed before I use your software!

Mark
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask questions (I doubt that you have that problem).
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask questions (I doubt that you have that problem).


Yes that was never really one of my problems! Very Happy

My view is it is always better to risk making yourself look a bit stupid if you overcome misunderstanding in the process. Much better than staying ignorant in silence and remaining unchallenged.

That is the beauty of skyscript. There always someone out there who knows more than yourself.

As the saying goes 'I'll be back.....'

Mark
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majid



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 45

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: To Martin re:German online Program, Reply with quote

Smile I have had a look at the online program from The Czech Republic host. Do you know what method they are using In Zodiac or In Mundo?
I have a pocket German dictionary which I have been using to translate.

This gives another set of data for me. A few years ago I wanted someone to print in pdf a set of comparisons using the same input data and maybe limiting it to the Hyleg planets and a 10 year period. SF and Janus and AstroWin all have as as Ed's program a PD option. To make it clear to programmers and Software Companies a list may be useful. The Czech program (for want of a better description) has a method called Cardano which I assume is Cardin. Did he do a better job than anyone else? Personally too many options cloud up my whole field of view. Has anyone come close to defining what is the most useful set of parameters? I cannot afford Kolev and as I am on diability pension its hard to order online books and I have many other priorities. But I am stuck on this at the moment <grin>.
Majid

Majid Buell Very Happy
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only specific thing I know about Cardan wrt to primaries is the "Cardan" key of 59' 12" of arc = 1 year. Don't know what particular method he used.
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