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How Astrology Works -- Fractals
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: How Astrology Works -- Fractals Reply with quote

I just completed a master level course in CHAOS and was introduced to Fractals, which I believe offer a working hypothesis regarding how Astrology works --

If the solar system and atomic structure are fractal expressions of each other -- the electron shield equivalent to the planetary structure -- then the as above so below metaphor is no longer metaphor, there is connective tissue of some sort between the atom & the solar system & the universe -- and astrology mediates how the planetary shield interacts with its members (us) and the core (sun). I sure wish I knew more math though.

The fractals around inhabit fractional dimensions (hence the name) somewhere between two and three dimensions since they are generated mathematically with complex numbers (combination of real and imaginary number)

Astrology is more complexly interdimensional since we, of course, interrelate time and space.
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GarryP
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Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 207
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi SG,

Have you read Bernadette Brady's book on chaos, fractals etc? It's reviewed here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rev_chaos.html

It would be interesting to hear where your ideas differ from Bernadette's.

Garry
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi SG,

Congratulations on completing the course!

Fractals remind me of Mandalas and Persian carpets. Smile

Quote:
If the solar system and atomic structure are fractal expressions of each other -- the electron shield equivalent to the planetary structure -- then the as above so below metaphor is no longer metaphor, there is connective tissue of some sort between the atom & the solar system & the universe --


Seems reminiscent of a transition from linear back to circular conceptions which was how ancient, indigenous thinkers conceived of the world/universe ... instead of squaring the circle, circling the square.

The connective tissue/fabric you mention I believe was also reflected classically by the fifth element "aether" or in today's terms "quintessence" and the realms of "dark energy" - "dark matter" with its gravitation effects on visible matter.

Metaphors are usually used to explain that which is inherently complex in simple terms that allow for various minds to comprehend the core principle, eg. to be understood by both those with auditory-sequential (or 'linear') leaning minds and visual-spatial ('circular') leaning minds.
I believe "the as above, so below" metaphor will remain as a metaphor for as long as language and the need to use language for instilling understanding exists. This particular metaphor embracing the 'all' and based upon wholistic thinking.

Quote:
and astrology mediates how the planetary shield interacts with its members (us) and the core (sun).

As astrology explains/interprets via orderly set of symbols how the universe and all its various components work and inter-relate, it seems to me that in translating this today mathematically what's being considered are the workings of the same 'body' but simply interpreting/explaining via an updated set of symbols from one division, which today also involves the use of a lot more symbols.

At the heart of this being the nature of the universe and all it contains (which includes us), the order to it and how it works.

Guess it's probably because I see astrology as a discipline not separate to maths as it contains the discipline of maths, as well as the other universal modes of expression.

Having said that, wish my maths was better too - something to keep working at I guess.

Kind regards,
TS.
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I bought Bernadette's book and somewhat put off by her extreme subjectivity. Also the take she has on bifurcation is not what went down in class but again, her own subjective interpretation of it, additional to championing a scientist that the authors assigned in my class refuted -- though I did cite her in the bibliography for the paper I wrote for the class.

Her whole rap on Tiamet was interesting -- then therein she cited Marduk, but paid no homage whatsoever to Hamurabi, his priest Kat-Archon -- and the king that changed Babylon from a city to an empire -- well, I'd just taken a course on Mesopotamian Mythology -- and got really excited about Tablet 5 of the Epic of Creation which is pretty much the mandate for astrology. The As Above so Below central premise of our art & craft set forth here, where Hamurabi is Marduk's earthly agent and planet Jupiter Marduk's heavenly agent.

I found her book disappointing and while somewhat helpful, not what I'd hoped for.
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Bill



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the solar system and atomic structure are fractal expressions of each other ....


That's rather a big 'if' isn't it SG?

I though fractals were a feature of complex systems exhibiting non-linear dynamics. How much non-linearity is evident from looking at an ephemeris?

Au contraire, it's the paragon of linearity and the absence of chaos. You have to go into the tumbling behaviour of asteroids, or extrapolate the cycle of Pluto for millions of years to see the potential for chaos in the solar system. It's currently at dynamic equilibrium. Which is why the sun rises in the morning on cue.

Now as regards life here on earth, well that's another matter. Chaos and order procreating all over the place. Non-linearity reigns. Fractals everywhere.

I haven't read Bernadette Brady's book, though in the mid 1990s I did some collaborative work with one of the guys who originally got the mathematics of chaos together in the 1980s - Prof. Ralph Abraham who wrote 'Dynamics: the Geometry of Behaviour'.

I came to the conclusion from spending time with Ralph that chaos theory has little to say about astrology the tool, but a lot to say about how it should be applied, especially for predictive work. He, on the other hand, got very interested in astrology as divination .....

All the best,

Bill
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Juan



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 210
Location: San Josť, Costa Rica

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
chaos theory has little to say about astrology the tool, but a lot to say about how it should be applied, especially for predictive work.
Bill

You have made an essetial distinction: how can we reach an understanding of how or why Astrology works if we do not have first a clear grasp of how astrological tools and procedures are built (their "engineering")?

There is a fundamental difference between Astrology the tool (or technology) and the act of interpretation or "reading", the application of Astrology to a specific task in a specific context.

I think the essence of Astrology, like the clock or the calendar, is the opposite of chaos, but we 1-) apply this tool to a chaotic or very complex reality, and 2-) often use this tool chaotically, in order to--in both cases-- create "fractals of meaning" in our minds.

Juan


Last edited by Juan on Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Bill, maybe you thought wrong.

Apparently the early cosmologists (Newton & post) warped their brains thinking through 3 entity physics -- 2 entities predictable, enter the third and outcome up for grabs -- nonlinearity was not a defining attribution of a chaotic state --

Cantor equations are linear.
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: & Then I Took a Class on DNA Reply with quote

which presented an interesting set of possibilities worthy of exploration. The 4 Letters -- CATG -- which are comprised of 4 elements plus a fifth -- nitrogen -- one wonders about our 4 elements -- air water earth & fire, if there's any correspondence

There's got to be a dna string that came in early in development of living organisms -- the quotidian string that is sensitized to day/night -- that's got to be hardwired -- that solar (sun above or below horizon), since life began in the sea the tidal rhythms -- lunar sensitivity -- has to be hardwired into very primitive life forms & passed down. My mother and I have the same angle between venus & mars -- 77 degrees. Certain astronomical sensitivities are built into the genome -- which is, if you will, a translation of a cosmic fractal into a biological one -- a crossing of dimensions ... the cosmos casting its face upon the living waters.

Sonja
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google "Michelle Jacobs". She was onto the interactions of fractals and astrology 10 years ago. Some of her material may still be available. I think Dennis Elwell also hit the subject in the same general timeframe in The Cosmic Loom.
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Bill



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: & Then I Took a Class on DNA Reply with quote

SGFoxe wrote:
The 4 Letters -- CATG -- which are comprised of 4 elements plus a fifth -- nitrogen -- one wonders about our 4 elements -- air water earth & fire, if there's any correspondence


Those four letters stand for Cytosine, Adenine, Thymidine and Guanine, which are the set of 'nucleobases' which bond together initially as pairs (A-T, C-G) and then in various sequences to form the helical structure of DNA in spceific genes. As bases, they are each comprised of four chemical elements, which are carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. When they are bonded together as a DNA structure, there is a fifth element involved, phosphorous. For example, the adenine nucleobase acquires three phosphate groups and becomes the 'nucleotide' adenosine triphosphate.

It's hard to imagine a correspondence between the four nucleobases and the Four Elements, other than a numerical one. This is because the four nucleobases have no immediately obvious differentiating qualities as individual entities, whatever about the highly esoteric and subtle differences in their biochemical properties. They are simply a set of functionally similar molecules with varying amounts of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen combined into four structural arrangements.

On the other hand, the link which can be made between the Four Elements (from which, in various combinations, all matter is constituted in the the Western pre-scientific world view) and the four known states of matter in modern science - solid, liquid, gas and plasma - is imaginally compelling.

Quote:
Certain astronomical sensitivities are built into the genome -- which is, if you will, a translation of a cosmic fractal into a biological one -- a crossing of dimensions


It sounds like you are suggesting a physical causal model for astrological influences here, which is one way to go, but also one not without its difficulties when trying to develop the model.

Leaving aside the issue of the processes involved in the coupling of the astronomical and genetic levels, one problem concerns the implications such a model has for limiting the scope of contexts to which astrology can be applied. It is common for astrologers to be working with contexts in which the salient entities don't have genes, such as governments, constitutions, businesses, sports contests, the asking of questions, and so on. On the other hand, these entities or events do have horoscopes which they are associated with.

Even if there is a complex resonance of some kind between the heavens and animals which plays a part in determining character (which also presupposes an arguable genetic-level determination of character), this cannot be central to the nature of the astrological process as indicated by what astrologers actually do.

Bill
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charmvirgo



Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 4
Location: London

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGFoxe
I have no problem accepting your theory of how fractals connect to Astrology, great minds think alike they say.
Fractals repeat the same pattern over and over, within and without, endlessly. The whole universe is a fractal and everything within it and without it. The rule applies to the universe as a whole, you can't separate your own individual earthly existence from the fundamental law of creation.
You can see the same structure in an atom, of positive electrons, negative electrons and neutral neutrons in Astrology with positive, negative and neutral signs and planets.
Astrology is symmetrical with the basic structure of the universe, based on fractals.
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charmvirgo

One universal pattern can say more than an infinite number of words.
You cannot bypass what is fundamental and expect to acquire knowledge.
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soniah



Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Posts: 34
Location: Spain

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, this is my first post on this forum, I apologize for my English, it is not my primary language and I don't practice it often, but I will try to explain myself as best as I possibly can.

I am Diplomed by the Faculty of Astrological Studies since I was 19 years old. Today, twenty years later, I see that most of major astrology sites continue providing an old fashioned explanation of astrology based in the ancient belief of "planetary forces" and this hurts our profession as well as the view of it by the general public, and what is even worst, we'll never be taken seriously by the scientific community with this kind of approach.

I think is very important for astrologers to realize that planets doesn't exercise any direct influence on people, but instead that exists a proven correlation between planetary positions at birth -and through life- and personal potential and the development of social and human cycles on earth. I point to Jung's model of synchronicity and Gauquelin's (& Ertel) scientific proof of this correlation at birth.

Professional astrologers and astrological institutions have a responsibility on this and the way how the profession is being portrayed to the general public.

Just an opinion,

Sonia
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soniah



Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Posts: 34
Location: Spain

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again,

my previous post could appear to be too simplistic but I just wanted to make the point.

For a further reading about the subject, I highly recommend to read this blog's entry by astrologer Chris Brennan, graduated from Kepler College:

Controlling the Effects of Planetary Influences

http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2007/06/12/controlling-the-effects-of-planetary-influences/

Sonia
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chronobiology -- they have found a "clocking" gene going back to one celled beasties -- 700 million years ago -- differentiating between dark & light -- other clocking molecules of course

Apparently the 28 day menstrual cycle and 28 day lunar cycle are coincidental -- they (so far) have found no clocking molecules for that, though there are other lunar sensitive clocking mechanisms in a variety of organisms (plus sensitivities to gravity, sun's latitude -- migratory necessity for birds)
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGFoxe wrote:
Chronobiology -- they have found a "clocking" gene going back to one celled beasties -- 700 million years ago -- differentiating between dark & light -- other clocking molecules of course
I've been looking around the internet. I think perhaps it could have been developed earlier in cyanobacteriae, where the first photosynthesis is found. For this, sunlight is needed, so maybe a circadian rhythm developed at the same time.

However 600mlln yrs ago there was a big ice age with allmost whole Earth frozen and several before that. Maybe the 'real' clocking genes were developed as a reaction to hostile environment, "get what you can get when it's daytime and the sun shines" :must have been the device.

Longer before that ice age there was the oxygen revolution, a harmful gas for many organisms so this could also have stimulated a survival move. Here's more on that period called Proterozoic,
http://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.museumkennis.nl%2Fnnm.dossiers%2Fmuseumkennis%2Fi002642.html this is the googletranslated version for the original Dutch version, http://www.museumkennis.nl/nnm.dossiers/museumkennis/i002642.html
but there's lot more on the internet, looks fascinating.
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