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The complex Solar Return

 
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Rodd



Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject: The complex Solar Return Reply with quote

Hello Folks!

The Solar Revolution (SR)... There are many ways of delineation of this ancient technique. I am always "dazed and confused for so long..." with it...

Let me show you my doubt. People say we must check repetitions between the natal determination and the same planet in the revolution to confirm it. However, in the greatly great majority of times we dont see repetitions! So is that a conclusion to drop out the SR?

Are we misusing it? Thats the question...

Rodd.

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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Solar Revolution (SR)... There are many ways of delineation of this ancient technique.


Solar returns or revolutions may not be all that ancient. According to James Holden there is no system of using solar returns the way we understand that term by the ancient Greeks. Again according to Holden the earliest treatise we have on revolutions goes back to the 8th century, and the most extensive early work is Abu Mashar's work in the 9th century. It appears to be a medieval technique. Although I've heard grumblings of discontent on this point.

Quote:
People say we must check repetitions between the natal determination and the same planet in the revolution to confirm it. However, in the greatly great majority of times we dont see repetitions! So is that a conclusion to drop out the SR?


It depends on how one defines "repititions" and understands that term. While it is understandable that we instinctively think of repititions in the SR as dupicates of positions in the natal chart, that isn't the only way to look at it. For example, if a nativity has Jupiter in Gemini near the MC and the 26th revolution has Jupiter in Pisces in the MC, that is considered to be a "repitition" of the natal position in the solar return. The same is true of aspects. If Mars in Leo squares Venus in Taurus in the nativity, any Mars square to Venus in subsequent revolutions are considered to be repititions. Note that since Venus doesn't get all that far from the Sun, she will be in Taurus in the SR fairly often and so a square from Mars, whether from Leo or Aquarius would definitely be telling the astrologer that this is the time of the promise of the chart. The same is true if Venus is in a sign other than Taurus in the revolution. The degrees don't have to be exact for a repitition either, but obviously the more precise the repitition, the more significant it will be.

Keep in mind that we are not only talking about repititions of positions or conjunctions to the nativity or repitition of the angles, but repitition of themes. Does the native have a heavy concentration of planets in one house in the nativity? Is there a similar concentration in the revolution even if it is in another house? That would be bringing the meaning of the nativity from one house to another.

Obviously it will be rare for a Jupiter or Saturn return to repeat itself in revolutions. Jupiter can only do this once every 12 years and Saturn once every 29 years. But they can repeat house position, conjunction to angles, and aspects as can every other planet.

And don't give up on the technique without looking at reversals. Reversed angles, reversed positions of the planets from the nativity, all sorts of oppositions are important in the solar return.

Finally, keep this in mind with every solar return. In most years nothing happens. Therefore, in most solar returns, the astrologer will find, well, nothing. Good astrology takes a good amount of work.

Tom
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Rodd



Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the reply, Tom

I have been faced with two types of delineation of the SR: the one quoted by you (you´re not the first to talk about this appoach, obviously) and a more systematic by Robert Zoller Diploma Course. So I admit I am very confused. On one hand, a almost-chaotic approach; on the other, an obcessive step-by-step procedure... Robert Schimidt also makes a joke that the procedures in the book "On Solar Revolutions" may take almost a year...

Is that your opinion that the SR must not be delineated like the natal chart, and then merged with that like a "sinastry"? I just really want to read your opinion.

Thanks!
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thanks for the reply, Tom
I have been faced with two types of delineation of the SR: the one quoted by you (you´re not the first to talk about this appoach, obviously)


I claim no originality. My observations are taken from Jean Baptiste Morin's Book 23 of Astrologia Gallica available from AFA for about $20 US.

Quote:
and a more systematic by Robert Zoller Diploma Course.


Morin's work is systematic. Obviously I could not condense 100 or more pages into a single post. I was only trying to address the subject of repitition of things in the nativity in the solar return. I've found Morin's book 23 to be among the most instructive astrology books I've ever read.

Quote:
So I admit I am very confused. On one hand, a almost-chaotic approach; on the other, an obcessive step-by-step procedure...


I'm not sure what your referring to here. I don't know anything about Zoller's Diploma Course. I do know that Zoller thinks highly of Morin while maintaining that medieval astrolgy is the high water mark of the subject. Morin lived from 1583 - 1656 hardly the Middle Ages. But this brings up another more important topic. There is no one clear-cut way of doing astrology. Zoller has chosen the methods he prefers and has been very successful, but he is not the only sucessful astrologer, and not every successful astrologer has followed his path. So what does that tell us? It tells us that there is more than one way to the truth. We look at truth as the final arbiter of our efforts, and if we find it, or think we have, then we might jump to the conclusion that every contrary technique must be false. This is not accurate but it does account for the clash of egos so prevelant in astrology modern and traditional.

Quote:
Robert Schimidt also makes a joke that the procedures in the book "On Solar Revolutions" may take almost a year...


The gag goes something like this: if we implement every one of Abu Mashar's techniques for solar returns, it will take a year to do a single chart. We laugh at this, but recall in the middle ages astrologers worked for royalty and important families. They could spend enormous amounts of time on the few charts they had to work with. This isn't the way things are done today.

Quote:
Is that your opinion that the SR must not be delineated like the natal chart, and then merged with that like a "sinastry"? I just really want to read your opinion.


I've done some contemporary charts using Morin's methods as I understand them, and I've had good results. I even started a few articles describing these results, but they tend to become a bit chart heavy, and I'm afraid the reader will lose interest. Morin teaches that the nativity shows the "promise" of the chart. I think we would more comfortable with the word "potential" rather than "promise." He does not mean "promise" as in guaranteeing a result. Therefore, primary directions, as well as solar and lunar returns, must reflect things in the nativity or they are useless. For example let us assume a person born to humble circumstances with a chart that has both Venus and Jupiter in the second house. This chart "promises" great wealth. The solar and lunar returns will tell us when the native will become or begin to become wealthy. If the directions, and revolutions do not show this, it will not happen.

On the other hand, let us say that a native is born with a debilitated Saturn in the second house. By itself this is an indication of a lack of wealth. If the solar return has Jupiter and Venus both in Pisces in the 2nd house, the native will not become wealthy because the nativity does not promise it. If by some chance the native does become suddenly rich, he will not be rich for long or he will regret ever becoming rich.

To me, at least, this makes perfect sense. The chart shows the potential and the subsidiary charts show us when the potential will be realized. Without the potential there is nothing to be realized.

Case in point:

Female
Feb 17, 1981
3:00 am EST
NY, NY

Jupiter is in Gemini in the nativity(I think; I'm going from memory) on the MC. Jupiter rules the Sagittarius ASC and Sagittarius 12th. "Fame" (10th house) will come to the native but since Jupiter is in detriment, it may ,well be notoriety. 2007 Solar return cast for Los Angeles, CA, USA has Jupiter in Pisces on the MC like the nativity, but in a different sign. The promise of Jupiter in the nativity will be fulfilled in a big way. Notice the bunching of planets in the nativity are repeated in the SR but this time in the 12th house of incarceration and Paris Hilton, our native, went to jail this year.

Tom
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Rodd



Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Brasil

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Morin's work is systematic. Obviously I could not condense 100 or more pages into a single post. I was only trying to address the subject of repitition of things in the nativity in the solar return. I've found Morin's book 23 to be among the most instructive astrology books I've ever read.


I wish I could buy this book as soon as possible. I have book 21 of AG and the results on interpretation are outstanding. In fact, it is not very objective; I think this book gives general guidelines to delineate a chart.

Quote:
There is no one clear-cut way of doing astrology. Zoller has chosen the methods he prefers and has been very successful, but he is not the only sucessful astrologer, and not every successful astrologer has followed his path. So what does that tell us? It tells us that there is more than one way to the truth.


I agree with you, it makes perfect sense. However, we are in a forum of ancient technics and I want to learn the "ancient" way of reading charts of different authors...

Quote:
They could spend enormous amounts of time on the few charts they had to work with. This isn't the way things are done today.[/color]


...and even time-consuming technics. I quoted Abu Mashar because he is classified as medieval and is very systematic. Despite the fact of that bunch of procedures Abu Mashar's book have, the reading of the lord of the year of profection in the Solar Return is a very straightfoward procedure and gives good results. But of course Morinus is very good and I would not neglect him, despite the fact the he call some technics of the arabs "nonsense".

Quote:
[color=darkblue]I've done some contemporary charts using Morin's methods as I understand them, and I've had good results. I even started a few articles describing these results, but they tend to become a bit chart heavy, and I'm afraid the reader will lose interest.


I am eager to read your texts if you have them yet. You are a very good teacher, as the posts clearly show, and I am grateful to read your opinion, indeed.

My e-mail is rtveronese@gmail.com.
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Rodd



Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:38 am    Post subject: Comments about Paris Hilton's chart Reply with quote

Paris Hilton has Jupiter conjunct Saturn in Libra at MC.

In 2007, the profected ascendant comes to aquarius, with the mercury-sun conjunction there. The Sun is a natural significator of fame, but it is in detriment. It clearly shows Paris's notoriety: without any dignity. She dont have any talent to be recognized for. That's what you wisely call "notoriety".

This debilitated sun is the ruler of the 4th and 8th houses, quoted by Steven as "houses of prison". Mercury rules 9th, 6th and 7th houses. Also, issues of law, open enemies and slavery will come to her this year. In fact, the situation merges as a complex one... Which house its the best to explain the year?

So I think the Revolution would narrow the things a bit. The sun-mercury conjunction is in the ultimate house of prison, the 12th! So the planets would make its determination more to darker issues this year.

I know that was an "after-the-fact" statement, but sometimes I do this with the purpose of learning.

What do you think?
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am eager to read your texts if you have them yet.


Thank you but what I wrote is, at this point, a work in progress - not yet ready for even proofreading. I started one essay and abondoned it and reworked it into another, and abandoned that and reworked that into a third. The reasons for the abandonment had to do with complexity, which is not to be confused with being profound. The work kept getting more complex and more difficult to follow, and that is the last thing I wanted in a short work intended to create interest in returns. I haven't given up just yet, but I have been busy with work, so I need to get back to at least one of them.

Quote:
I wish I could buy this book as soon as possible. I have book 21 of AG and the results on interpretation are outstanding. In fact, it is not very objective; I think this book gives general guidelines to delineate a chart.


Book 21 is the basic text of Morin's methods of chart delineation. Without Book 21 Book 23 would not make much sense. In fact the translator of Books 22 (Primary Directions) and 23 (Revolutions), James Holden, suggests the reader become familiar with 21(translated by Baldwin) and 22 before reading 23. The reader should at least have a basic understanding of primary directions in order to get the most out of 23.

One warning. In 23 Morin spends a lot of time on lunar returns. The problem is that the tables he used to calculate the position of the Moon in a nativity weren't too accurate. If the Moon is a degree or so off in the nativity, the calculation of a lunar return could be as much as two signs off on the house cusps. For this reason, many, but not all, of the lunar return charts, are difficult to impossible to duplicate on a computer program. I suggest an interested reader might print a blank chart and simply duplicate the charts in the book, "by hand" in order to get the Most of Morin's explanations. The square charts in the book are reproductions of the originals and are difficult to read - not only because they are square charts, but because of the fonts and the glyphs are difficult to make out.

I'm travelling and I'll get to your other questions in a day or so. Thanks for writing.

Tom
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It clearly shows Paris's notoriety: without any dignity. She dont have any talent to be recognized for.


Yes. Paris Hilton is famous for being famous.

Quote:
I know that was an "after-the-fact" statement, but sometimes I do this with the purpose of learning.

What do you think?


I suppose prediction is the best way to see if what we believe actually works, or if we're any good at what we do, but with the exception of horary astrology where the outcome is usually known pretty quickly, we have to wait quite some time to see how accurate our predictions are. So for learning, we're stuck with hindsight astrology and that is always easier.

There are two obvious factors in Paris Hilton's solar return for 2007. One is the repetition of the position of Jupiter on the MC and the other is that both lights are in the 12th house in the solar return. Jupiter rules her ASC, her person. She was born under a Jupiter - Saturn conjunction therefore the influence of Saturn on Jupiter will always be evident. But Jupiter on the MC is an indication of fame or perhaps in most cases some honor coming to the native. We can achieve honors without being famous. Jupiter has no essential dignity in the nativity. I forget where I read this, and I think it came originally from Bonatti, but peregrine planets can be prone towards good or ill, but usually ill. In Hilton's case, she isn't doing much of substance with the things she's been given in this life, and that appears to be the Saturn influence.

In the solar return, the promise of honors or fame or notoriety is repeated with Jupiter on the MC as Jupiter is in the nativity. This, then, is an indication that what Jupiter promises in the nativity will be fulfilled this year. This time, however, Jupiter is in his own sign of Sagittarius and therefore quite strong. Morin tells us that the solar return cannot give what is not in the nativity, therefore Jupiter in Sagittarius can only give what Jupiter in Libra conjunct Saturn has to give. Jupiter, in this case, appears only to have notoriety to give the native. In the solar return, Jupiter is "at the bendings" and the nodal axis sits on the ASC - DSC axis. This is another indication that peregrine Jupiter could go either way. Look at her situation: yes she was caught driving under the influence. That happens to lots of people. She had the charge reduced because she was right at the legal limit and the device that measures blood alcohol content has a margin of error. However she willfully chose to disregard the court's orders not once, but twice. And when ordered to appear in court for the second infraction, she showed up late for her court appearance! If the judge had ignored all of this, he would have been mercilessly castigated in the press and suspected of taking bribes. In short she asked for it. Jupiter on the MC indicates attention being brought to oneself and Jupiter also rules the 12th in the nativity.

Every person who has the lights int he 12th house in a solar return is not necessarily going to spend time in jail. But this is the sort of thing that ought to make an astrologer take notice (see Morin quote below). At the very least it indicates restrictions on native in the coming year. Although, without knowledge of her initial arrest and initial violation of her sentence, we might be hesitant to predict jail time. If we have that knowledge and then put the chart in that context, I don't think it would be a stretch for an astrologer to have advised Ms Hilton to follow the rules in the coming year (not that she would have paid attention), because there is danger of some kind of restrictions.

I didn't want this to go on too long, but I think if I were to spend a lot of time on this chart, I would work with Mercury, too. In the nativity, Mercury is one minute of arc shy of being cazimi and with the on-the-hour birth time, and the fact that Mercury is Rx I might consider Mercury to be cazimi. If that is the case Mercury ruling the 7th in both the solar return and the nativity indicates that her enemies are stronger than she is, as her natal ASC lord is peregrine and her Sun is in detriment.

The main point is that we look in the solar return for things "promised" in the nativity. Morin lists 31 "Universal Laws of Judgment" of evolutions and follows that with 12 "General things that must be looked at in revolutions, with a directory of judgment." We've only touched the surface. No 31 of the "Universal Laws" reads as follows:


Quote:
One must not judge any revolution without having inspected the radical figure and its directions for the year of the revolution. However, in every revolution pay careful attention to that which it principally signifies, for it will principally bring that forth if it is signified strongly.


Tom
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SaturnReturn



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Nice post, you opened my eyes a bit on the subject of the solar return.

Do you know where I can find any information on the net on how to calculate the primary directions? I can only find info on progressions.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Saturn Return

You can download a free pdf copy of Bob Makransky's primer on calculating primary directions at his website:

www.dearbrutus.com

Go to the home page, then click on "Books" then click on Primary Directions, a primer of calculations.

Ed Falis offers a free program for calculating primaries

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6qirr/myindex.html

You can buy Rumen Kolev's books on Primary Directions at The Astrology Center of America [ http://www.astroamerica.com/ ] and you can buy his program (expensive and a bit "buggy") from Halloran software.

Also from Astrology Center of America you can buy Sepharial's book on primary directions. Finally from AFA and maybe from Astroamerica, too, you can buy Morin's book 22 of Astrologia Gallica on primary directions and Alfred Pearce's Text Book of Astrology. That has a section on calculating primaries and come to think of it, so does Christian Astrology book III.

Tom
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SaturnReturn



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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great! Thank you!

I've been quite interested in the subject of Solar Returns and primary directions for the last few months. Even though I have been studying "Barnes and Noble" astrology since I was a kid, I had never even heard about SR's or PD's until about six months ago. Its an interesting subject and I'm curious to explore its viability. According to what I've read so far, my solar return this year should be significant, as my Asc is back to its original position this year, and SR venus will also be conjoined natal venus, so Im hoping something nice will come of that. I read last night in Anima Astrologiae that when the Asc in the revolution is conjoined the Asc in the radix that something promised in the nativity will come to pass.

Anyway, thanks for the info!
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cyber_brujo



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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject: Solar Return's location Reply with quote

On calculating solar returns, does one use the place of birth, or the place that the person actually is?
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On calculating solar returns, does one use the place of birth, or the place that the person actually is?


This is one of those areas where we can find authority for whatever our position. For example Cardan, I believe, set the solar return or revolution for the birthplace. Lilly used the location of the birth, see CA page 734, but he spends only a few pages on the entire topic. Morinus is adamant, Morinus is always adamant, that the revolution should be cast for the native's location at the time of the revolution. He also claims that all his predecessors and contemporaries (17th century) set the chart for the birthplace. Therefore he is claiming to be the first to set the chart for the native's location at the time of the return. I don't know if that is true or not.

The problem with Morinus and those who argue for casting the chart for the native's location at the time of the return, is that many times we do not know where the native will be, and therefore prediction becomes difficult, and this is a predictive technique. The plus side is that the method seems to work real well, at least in hindsight - which may be the reason it works well.

I like the idea that the birthplace shows us all the potential for the coming year, and the location at the time of the return shows the potential for that place only, although I doubt that idea has traditional authority behind it. For example I worked with the appropriate solar return in effect when Arthur Ashe won the 1975 Wimbledon Men's Championship. I used Wimbledon, England as the location. It worked wonderfully. However since Ashe was born on July 10 and the 1975 Championship match was played on July 10, I used the 1974 return on the grounds that the return unfolds over time and an hour or two or three isn't much time to unfold. I have no idea if Arthur Ashe was at Wimbledon on his birthday in 1974. I have no idea where he was that day.

Try a few both ways, and see how they come out for you. Computers make research like this a lot easier.

Tom

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