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And the debate rages on...
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voyagergirl



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 333
Location: Michigan, USA

Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: And the debate rages on... Reply with quote

A while back there was a flurry of controversy about whether to use the 7th or 5th house to designate a lover. I'm all for using the 5th house, believing that Lee Lehman is correct about using this house for romances, and non-married or non-cohabiting couples.

My question "Is M seeing someone else?" stems from a new relationship and a hot-and-heavy tryst last week. Since then, no word from M, hence my question.

But if I use the 7th house as a significator, then M is ruled by Saturn in its detriment in MY first house, which I take to mean NO and furthermore, since he's in my house, he's under my influence. (Since I haven't had so much as a phone call from him since Sunday, this seems highly unlikely).

But if you use the 5th house, which I am inclined to do, then he's ruled by Jupiter and in the house with two other planets, the Moon, which is about to conjunct Jupiter in the 5th, and Pluto, which Jupiter will conjunct.
Lee Lehman says that planets in the same house along with other planets signify other people, so using the 5th house, I'd say he's quite the playboy.

The interesting thing about the 5th house chart, is that my Significator is about to oppose Jupiter (his significator) in about 5 degrees, which is the number of days that have elapsed since I last heard from him. The Moon, which is about to conjunct Jupiter, will conjunct that planet in 8 degrees, and in 8 days, I am moving from this city to another state.

This is an example of why I think the 5th house is the right house. However, I won't know the answer to my question unless someone runs into him with another woman.

I would love to post the chart, but I can't figure out how to do it.
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go with the 5th House for lovers and romances that arent solidified. The 7th House is designated towards contractual bonds between two people, marriage falls under this contractual bond. The 7th House may describe about both partners in general (being as it is opposite to the Ascendant and thus the duality of male-female) but the 5th House speaks of the actions between both parties which are ruled by Venus naturaly (being her House of Joy) and thus romance and sex are very much under this House. Also, it is a well known fact that (especially in earlier times), people rarely married for love or romance but to get ahead financially with dowery and other benefits. Finally, this House is trined the Ascendant which signifies perfect love and thus I see no reason why it should not be considered the House of romance and sex.
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SaturnReturn



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 7th house indicates "The other" in life. It is opposite the asc, which is your "life". Traditionally isnt it the house of "death"?I suppose in horary it has been used to determine marriage, but I believe in traditional astrology that would be determined more by the conditions of the sun, moon, mars, and venus, dependant on the sex of the native, and certain timing techniques to determine time of marriage.

I disagree that marriage needs to be contractual. Back in the day, it was socially unnacceptable to "live in sin" with another person like we do today. Most people in the USA today are unmarried. I don't think that most peoples chart has a massive affliction to their 7th house, so marriage has taken on a different meaning. I think that any significant relationship can be signified by the 7th house, contractual or not.

The 5th house is more of the house of falling in love and being in love, without commitment. If commitment becomes involved it turn 7th house. But a night out on the town carousing, flirting, and romance is 5th.

5th is all about self expression. Expressing yourself after soldifying yourself in the 4th. This can come through art, children, romance, etc. It is the house of good fortune in greek astrology. For the 5th it doesn't matter if the "other" had a good time. Its all about you, (trine the asc) and your expression. Are you having a good time? With the 7th house you have moved away from an egocentric attitude in the relationship, now it is compromise and give and take. A real relationship, opposite yourself as the asc.

Asc is your life. Opposite that is the 7th, which is about your life mixed with another.

5th house is your expression of yourself. It is trine the asc so it works naturally and easily with the thrust of your life. Opposite that is the house of community, and relating with others on a social level. Like the 7th, the 11th involves others, but it is others on a grand scale. In greek it is the house of Good spirit.

Venus is happiest in the 5th house. Venus is not known for being faitful or commited. She is known for merriment, joy, and all forms of debauchery. She is known for a good time, but she may not be there in the morning.
Who finds joy in the 7th?

I was just reading Lilly and he describes the 7th, in part: "It giveth judgment of Marriage, and describes the person inquired after, whether it be Man or Woman, all manner of Love questions(...)" The 5th: "By this house we judge of Children, of Embassadours, of the state of a Woman with child, of Banquets, of Ale-houses, Tavernes, Playes(...)". Alehouses? Taverns? Plays? What exactly goes on in an Ale-house? Being in a play is one of the most lovely things you can ever do, it gives a feeling like no other, and if the play is good and you feel good about it, it is like falling in love. Its very beautiful.

Haha, anyway. Thumbs up
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaturnReturn,

Very good analysis of the 5th and 7th House. I have to fully agree with your points. The 7th House definately rules over a commitment (which can be contractual whether legally, through a paper medium or even just through the time invested with the individual, as contracts show obligations even if they arent written they are still present in any commited relationship) where as the 5th is very "fancy free". But I certainly agree with all your points, very well said. Thumbs up
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee Lehman is not the only one who prefers to read romance in 5th house. There are many authors who prefer to read romance or causal flirtation from the 5th house.

7th house represents those sexual relationships which come with Naan and Nufqa (a willingness or contractual willingness to provide food and shelter to the other partner). This may turn out to be a legal marriage or a live-in relationship which is backed by state legislation.

5th house presents those relationships where sex/love (man-woman) is involved without obligation.

So, 7th house is sex/love (man-woman) with obligation and 5th house is sex without obligation. 8th house is a very extreme/obsessive house it only concentrates one thing. The orgasm. Orgasn to the exclusion of pre-love or active love. Has some body read Godfather by Mario Puzo. The person on the verge of dying or when he is strangled his body gasps for air and his body fluids are released. There is also a form of extreme pleasure where a person strangles himself with a certain caution that he comes back before actual dying.

- We have to define what we mean by Sex---Love ---or intimacy. Whether we admit or not. The true reason for forming any relationship with opposite sex is infact sex if we are young. And true reason for women forming any relationship with any man is first and foremost security and then sex. That explains that marriage and relationships are looked from chart in different ways if the client is a man and is different when it’s a woman.

We also differ by age. Young people up to a mid 40s prefer sexual relationship and much grown up people prefer intimacy to sex.

Sex in ancient culture was a much elaborate term. It consisted more in foreplay while penetration or orgasm was considered to be least desirable as it hastens up the final act. But now a days the society has become orgasmic. We want our music to be ecstatic and our sex life to be ecstatic. Not knowing that orgasm or ecstasy itself is a prelude to a sense of emptiness and a prelude for ebb and flow. After high pitched emotion it has be balanced with low-pitched emotion.

I follow Lilly and it amazed me a lot when he says that all forms of love question are resolved from 7th house. Maybe he mirrored his times. Love only meant legal love and legal love was infact sexual love within safe relationship. But perhaps Lilly was more puritan and reflected his society. People married more for security rather than intimacy. He married his boss wife and he married woman much older. Whether he was a sexual person. His autobiography is silent. Remember he was not Rousseau. People preferred to keep up appearances. I don’t see that people in those times were saint. At least not the Taurus Sun sign. Laughing

Love between man and woman is not an ancient thing. Ancient literature and I had recourse to Arabian nights and Dastan e Amir Hamza to testify that men were reluctant to consider women as their equal. A man was considered weak if he was known to love certain woman. The time was martial and so were people. Love, as an emotion is more a product or late 1000 Ad. When society discourages free mingling of sexes. People repress their sexual feeling which is transmuted via art, poetry and love. The object of our desire is placed on pedestal and we worship him/her. The gratification of the desire is not the prime object but to enjoy the pain and suffering which comes from non gratification. A kind of Sadist Masochist behavior.

At last we come to most of the relationship horaries in our forum. Though I analyze according to Lilly but I always keep in mind the 5th house if the person is young. Not all the relationships would end in marriage. We need more fun. However, if the relationship is of such kind where both people can tease or nag each other I would say that its 7th house (war) relationship whether they are married or not. 5th house carries with itself the idea of playfulness. Relaxation.

I remember a novel when a woman compares two of her lovers. Both satisfy her. But she prefers the one who is more playful. I have talked from the man point of view. The post could be read from the woman point of view. Smile .
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voyagergirl



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 333
Location: Michigan, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:07 am    Post subject: Update on "The debate rages on!" Reply with quote

I first posted this in early June. Since then, I've seen my lover two more times, once last month, after I moved 600 miles away -- and I went back home for a visit.

However, my question was "Is M seeing other women" and I found out from the man himself that he is seeing "a couple other women." Ahem!

He also said he never plans to marry or have children. As it turns out this is fine with me, as the vast differences between our ages (I'm much older than he) would preclude both of those possibilities.

So, it seems the fifth house gave the correct answer here, since the fifth house "showed" him to be with "other people."
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion there is one factor which is fundamental to this whole debate and yet has not been touched upon: contraception.

Without contraception a woman cannot carry on a 5th house affair - it will turn into a 7th house matter as soon as she falls pregnant (and therefore needs to be supported physically, financially etc).

I think this is a perfect example of the difference in horary between the thing itself and the activity or purpose of that thing.

7th house is the person.

5th house is the activity - the sex.

Now contraception is freely available (in Western countries at least), the 5th and 7th houses can be separated. We can enjoy sex (5th) without committment to another person (7th).

Therefore I would be loath to use the 5th for a person unless it is clear that it is just a sexual fling. Using the 5th for a person translates into a person being less a person and more an object, used just for sex. This makes little sense to me. I have always used the 7th house, even when the relationship is casual. I don't believe that it is possible to separate sex from relating. Neither do I believe it is desireable or "liberating" to do so. Even in a casual affair, emotions are involved and both parties usually (eventually) want some sort of committment. Voyagergirl would not have asked her question if she did not have some level of desire for committment from her lover. If a person did not care about the other person in a 7th house way, why would they ask if they were seeing someone else? To ask is to acknowledge a desire for committment.

Sometimes Lord 5 is prominently placed, in the 7th house or on the MC. I take this to show that sex and enjoyment is important in the relationship, which may or may not show that it is superficial. It all depends on the main receptions. I also use the Sun and Venus as sexual significators. Often these tell the whole story on their own!

Voyagergirl - your chart sounds interesting as it appears that Lord 5 is a more fitting significator for the man than Lord 7. The aspects sound particularly compelling testimony for the man being shown by Lord 5 and not Lord 7. Could you post the chart data?

Keren
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1000Camels



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 47
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here, here, Keren! Very Happy Well said! Thumbs up
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
7th house is the person.

5th house is the activity - the sex.



Letís complicate things by looking at the animal kingdom. Things can get pretty wild there: Aggression during mating can involve biting, fighting, even killing Ė two creatures battling during the mating proceedings. Seeing that we are just as capable of horrific grunts and shrieks as the next animal, I think the 7th house of open enemies, opponents, and warfare also fits for the activity of sex. The sexual act is a very appropriate manifestation of the horizontal axis. Something so personally and physically involved seems better described by an opposition to the ASC rather than an angle off to the side. That in-your-face directness may be why some people can only face sex with strangers Ė they canít bear the fact that they have so completely exposed themselves.

The 7th seems to describe the intensity and murkiness of sex better than the 5th house party house and its drawer full of pills and condoms. Itís easy to think that we are merely engaging at will in a pleasurable activity, when in reality we are being pushed and prodded by something deep down and hidden away inside. We arenít as in control as we think. That fits well with the Sun setting in the west and its traditional symbolism of death Ė an ancient 7th house signification.
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1000Camels



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what you're saying, Kirk. However, the 5H is also the house of competition, contests, sports and other areas where fixed applications of the will are the modus operandi. The 5H is a place of power, but it is also a place where these matters are "dramatized" and thereby acted out.

5H activities are serious business nowadays, as R. Hand points out in Horoscope Symbols. Recreation can be a means to a profitable livelihood and sex carries serious health risks. There is a Saturnine aspect related to 20th century events that overshadows the playfulness that is usually associated with the 5H by classical astrology, as others have pointed out above. Saturn exalts in Libra, and so--to my mind--the presence or absence of his sheer gravity will be a factor. The seriousness with which two people commit or obligate themselves to acting as a unit is where I draw the line between the two houses, although I don't think either house will characterize the totality of a relationship. This goes for those who would see themselves as enemies too.
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be a long time before Iím able to make up my mind about this. One problem with the 5th/7th house debate is the speed with which we drop the romance, strip off our clothes, and proceed to sexual acts . Itís typically modern, really. Thatís why I was somewhat annoyed with Kerenís "Without contraception a woman cannot carry on a 5th house affair". She does have a valid point, but is making an assumption Ė a very common one. Sex does not solely equate with genitals. In the current overly literal age of 'I want it, I can get it' the subtle twists and turns of erotic imagination offered by romance are lost to an obtuse mind and soul. That pleasurable romance of the imagination is surely 5th house.

I may have made a little progress in figuring this out.
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In discussing this sex stuff itís easy to substitute houses for what is in reality a planetary job. Venus and Mars are business partners in the sex industry. But itís interesting that Venus has her joy in 5, Mars has his next door in 6, with marriage and partnership in 7. Would it be worthwhile to also consider the 6th?

Hereís an idea Surprised : With the diurnal motion the sign on house 5 (Venus) will eventually rise in the east, then 6 (Mars) will rise, then 7 (the sexual coupling?). A possible argument for the 7th house indicating the sexual act? By then the original rising sign is on the Descendant. An ASC-DESC switch. Sexual acts?
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voyagergirl



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 333
Location: Michigan, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Data for "Is M seeing someone else?" Reply with quote

Keren, you had asked for the data for this chart: I wanted to post the actual chart, but I can never figure out how to do it!

So here is the date and time: May 31, 2007, at 10:17 a.m. in El Paso, Texas, USA. 106W29, 31N46. (It is daylight savings time). The chart on Astrodienst had Leo rising, with the moon in Sag about to conjunct the 5th house ruler of Jupiter. Since I used the fifth house to signify the house of pleasure and romance, this chart makes sense. (Otherwise, my much-younger lover would be ruled by Saturn).

When you look at the chart, you'll see that Jupiter is in the fifth house with the Moon and Pluto -- "other people" according to Lee Lehman. (Which makes sense, since my lover told me he is seeing two other women).

Also, I'm ruled by the Sun in Gemini here, and in this chart, the Sun is going to oppose Jupiter -- and I determined that indicated the upcoming separation between me and the young man -- which was true, I moved 600 miles away!

Your thoughts about contraception are very interesting and probably true, but it's moot in my case, since I'm way past pregnancy age!

On the other hand, you're also correct: the very asking of the question shows that I genuinely wish that this relationship could have long-term potential and that I really don't like "sharing" someone I'm very attracted to. I'll be interested to see what you make of the chart once you see it.

Thanks, Keren!
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:44 pm    Post subject: Turning the Chart Reply with quote

Hi, Voyagergirl!

My thought on this question is, don't forget to turn the chart.

In such questions, I would use the Lord/Lady of the fifth as the lover, and turn the chart to see who is in _his_ fifth house.

To put it another way, if the fifth is _your_ lover (and I agree that the chart can be read this way), then the fifth of the fifth is _his_ lover(s). Or, if he is married, the seventh of the fifth (radical eleventh) is his wife/committed relationship. This can be revealing, for we know not everyone is forthcoming with this information when having an affair.

I see Jupiter (your lover) in your fifth house, indicating his interest in you as a "playmate". The Moon is one of your significators, on the cusp of the fifth (questioning whether to "come out and play", or go the other way back to your "home base" fourth house)!

Moon conjuncts Jupiter before Sun opposes Jupiter. So you did get to see him, then, once before you moved away.

I don't use Pluto, so I don't read another lover for you, which two planets in your fifth would indicate.

In the fifth of the fifth (radical ninth) we have one planet, Mars. In the seventh of the fifth (radical eleventh) we have two planets, Sun and Mercury. One of the ladies he told you about, he has a commitment to. And there is another (committed) one hiding there that he hasn't confessed to yet; perhaps he has been keeping her in the dark altogether.

On the question of contraception. . . let's not forget that the fifth house indicates pregnancies as well as sex (restaurants, taverns, theatres, art galleries, games, gambling, sports, etc). Smile. Pregnancy is not a seventh house matter, as pregnancies can and do occur outside of committed relationships, although we know that these circumstances can be less than ideal.

In my opinion, the fifth house can indicate the affair, or the person you have the affair with: just as the seventh house can indicate the event of marriage, or the husband/wife. In other words, fifth house sexual activity demands a partner. Where will the described partner come from, if not the Lord/Lady of the fifth house?

My two cents!

Warmest regards,

Spirlhelix
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
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Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyagergirl, thanks for the chart info. I don't have time to look at it right now but I'm looking forward to spending a good couple of hours on it! Smile

Kirk - I agree with you. If you re-read my post you'll see I think that relationships are a 7th house matter (7th = person, 5th= activity). I can't agree that sex itself is 7th - there is a distinction here as there are for many other issues in horary (3rd is a journey but my car is 2nd, etc).

My point about contraception is that it has allowed the development of sexual "freedom"/promiscuity, which previously has wielded the consquences of unwanted pregnancy. Contraception has therefore engendered the somewhat casual attitude Western society (as a generalised whole) now appears to have towards sex. I agree that the speed with which we take off our clothes is a modern phenomenon (this is a generalisation of course, I'm sure promiscuity and one-night stands have been going on since the dawn of time... and of course not all of us are now promiscuous).

Still, I can't agree that sex belongs in the 7th. It's a loving act between two people (at least, it's supposed to be), and so the 5th, which trines the 1st and sextiles the 7th, seems to me the perfect place for it. And after all it is for making babies (5th again!) and it is supposed to be enjoyable. My point is that I sincerely dislike the notion that a *person* belongs there (in the same way that a sex toy would belong there!), no matter how "casual" or superficial the relationship.
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