16
Gunhilde----

Yes, 4th is a 4th.

Christian Astrology p.204 and 205. William Lilly describes methods of treating horary in case of buying or selling. He mentions 4th house as property for sale, 1st for buyer, 7th for seller, 10th for price etc.

On page 212 ans 213 he describes a method to know if to re-locate is better then to stay. In that case 4th is current residence and 7th is re-location.

When there is no property for sale or it has not been ear-marked. Similarly you can not call a property as a property for sale when there is no willing seller.

Buyer---Seller----Property----and some consideration (maybe money)

are the four constituents of a proper buying/selling transaction.

In your analysis you have described the location or environment of the flat. The horary treats such question but for an ear marked property or identifiable piece of property or land.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Take another example. The Querent is STJ and the astrologer is any body.

Query: I want to buy Prime Minister house, can i buy it and when?


-QUestion: Is there any Prime Minister house?

--Yes, its in Islamabad and is owned by Federal Government.

-Question: Do you have enough money?

--Billions of.

--QUestion: Is there a willing seller?

--Federal Governemnt does not intend to sell it

So, the question is not effectively 1-4.....maybe 1-11 ( a wish and a fancy)

-----------------------------------------------

Query: I want to buy a flat in Utopia?

QUestion: Do you know where utopia is?

--I dont know.

This horary is 1-11 and cant not be 1-4

---------------------------------------
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

17
Hi STJ,

I really *do* understand what you're saying, and to a point I agree with your delineations. But I think that you are perhaps being a bit too literal with the interpretation of the 4th, in the case of buyer/seller/property.

Anaban is looking, actively, for a property for sale: the 4th. I personally don't think it matters that it isn't a *specific* property; by default, the querent is looking at properties that are currently for sale, as it would be pointless for her to look at properties that aren't for sale.

It would be a similar question for, say, "Will I be accepted to University?", when you have applied to several universities but aren't very sure of your prospects to get into any of them. When the querent asks the question, they don't necessarily have a specific university in mind; they just want to get into *some* university, any university, to which they have applied.
This horary question can easily be answered by looking at applications/receptions between the 1st and the 9th, "Yes, you will be accepted to one of those universities", or "No, your exam grades were too low and you're not getting into any of them!" :D

In this chart of Anaban's you CAN also look to the 11th. The ruler of the 11th, Mars, is in the 9th house. The Moon has only *just* separated from a sextile. Mars' dispositor is Saturn, the loan, and Mars and Saturn apply by a mutually-receptive opposition. The Moon's next application is a trine to Saturn, and carries the light from her hopes to that loan. She *will* find her hopes fulfilled, but she is going to have to work very, very hard to do it, and due to the condition of the significators, she may find that she has to settle for less than she had hoped.

GH :)

18
Hi Anaban,

First of all there is planetary hour agreement which is a good sign. It usually means the querent gets what she wants. Also the Moon (you) is in the 11th house of finding safe harbour and partile sextile the Lord of the 11th which is also its dispositor ... a sense of opportunity and being in good hands.

Mercury, L.4, is in detriment, but in a good house, trine the Ascendant (you), and I'm with Gunhilde in thinking that Venus in 11th represents a friend who will help you out. She is very friendly to Mercury which is in her exaltation and terms, and Mercury is in her face. Plus they are in applying sextile.

If I had to take a guess at when you will find your apartment, I'd say 13 to 16 weeks after you asked the question ... when the Moon crosses over into Taurus (13 degrees) or conjuncts Venus (16 degrees). On the other hand it could be in 14 weeks (degrees) when the Moon reaches the sextile to Mercury.

Keep us posted.

Tara

19
Gunhilde---

Your treatment of 1-9 horary is all right and I have no objection but I am unable to see its relevance to the discussion at hand. If you have applied for entrance to universities than your application is in pipeline and is an eligible 1-9 horary. But looking for a flat is entirely different ball game with respect to entering into negotiations for buying with the intended seller.

You wrote that Querent is actively looking for property. The use of ‘actively’ is like putting words in the mouth of the Querent. I asked the similar sort of question and querent replied that he has no specific property in mind currently. The question not defined properly or not evincing proper or legitimate effort in pipe line is a different thing. One method is treating the horary as 1-11. The legitimate effort in buying a property is entering into negotiations. You can not buy a property even entering into negotiations. There are many aspects, which have to be taken care off.


-You visit the property and show your consent or interest.

-You contact the seller.

-You enter into negotiations or bargaining.

-If the matter is concluded to the satisfaction of both parties then remains the part of execution of sale deed.

-Then this sale deed gets registered with the concerned regulatory authorities and you are finally the owner of a property.

This process does not happen on the click of a button unless and until you have left all the steps to your attorney. Which I say is bit expensive now days.

It brings us to another point. Than what should be the treatment of questions when the Querent has asked if he will buy an apartment and when.


Now looking for a property and not having found one suggests that the search whatever it may have taken even months or so is not legitimate for 1-4 horary.

One method for such kind of general query is 1-11 method.

Second method if the matter or search is going on for some period is to look for the End of Matter method.

End of matter is still looked from the 4th house of the figure. But its treatment is slightly different.

4th house and any planet in 4th house.

Lord of the 4th house.

Dispositors of Fortuna and lord of Moon.

The resulting factors are looked for their fortitude or debility to arrive at the conclusion (and not receptions).

However, if the question related to buying of a branded item/property with fixed price your analysis of 1-4 horary is spot on.

The points worth considering in this horary.

Moon is working. (Moon is in an aspect with her dispositor).

Moon separates from a malefic and applies to a malefic.

Moon is in succedent house and Lord of 4th house is in detriment and in cadent house.

Moon and significator are showing mix result.

Apart from arguments on treatment of this horary on 1-4 or 1-11 basis. I have no objections to your analysis.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

20
STJ,
You wrote that Querent is actively looking for property. The use of 'actively' is like putting words in the mouth of the Querent.
Ah, but the querent has asked on another site as well, where she has stated that she has already looked at several properties, none of which suited. So I was bringing some 'inside' information to this thread. So sorry I didn't mention it before...

I think we perhaps hold a philosophical difference in the 1-4 arguments. I feel that the *intention* of buying a property is enough to render it a 4th house matter, and not solely an 11th house one.

You feel that one has to have a specific property already in mind, but I also feel that intending to buy something is enough to place the desired thing within the specific house. So 'Will I buy a car?' -> 3rd house; 'will I buy a flat?' - > 4th house.

Another example, much the same can be said for 5th house questions: 'Will I have a child?'. You are 'actively' trying :brows but you do not have to have a specific 'child' in mind, do you, if you want a child? No. You just want a child. I assume the 5th house could be used for adopting a child as well. "Will I adopt a child?' -> you don't yet know 'which' child.

Likewise, if you are trying to find an apartment to buy, but haven't found one yet, you can use the 4th.

Perhaps we'll just go around and around on this; as it is, the querent seems to have disappeared, which is a pity, as she may have learned a great deal about horary! :lol:

GH

21
Gunhilde--

Horary astrology is bit easy in a way that it does not take years of practice to master the rudiments of art to satisfy a client. But i have also find out from my own experience and from that of others that its accuracy is 80% or 90%. It bothers me to some extent. One reason for not having
100% accuracy is following ;-

The case of this horary is an example. You get a similar or to some extent similar answer from 1-11 perspective 1-4 perspective or End of Matter perspective. And in the end we both may feel that our technique was right. It would be a dangerous thought. I would be more concerned in finding out which perspective was the *CORRECT* one, otherwise my faulty understanding or dull technique may yield inaccurate results in other cases.

It appears that phrasing of a question, or a back ground information of any query can make a difference and make them eligible for an analysis differently.

If you search, in one of my query i raised a point that which house should be looked for the future of engagement. I analysed the question from the 1-7 perspective and from the relationship perspective. In the end it has trnaspired that relationship perspective is the dominant one. LIke an engagment with a cousin could be 1-3 or 1-7. Engagement with a boss or a public celebrity could be 1-10 or 1-7. So, there is a need on the part of astrologer to be on the alert and not rigid.

You would laugh, however, traditional stuff at my disposal says that if you are asking about a relationship with certain woman than if the object of such relation is satisfying of natural urges it is 1-5 query. If the intention is sex and intimacy than its 1-7. But if the woman holds some title. Like

Countess Xena or
even if she is married and is referred as simple Mrs.

then its 1-10 horary.

I think that now i will close 1-4 query issue. We have our own perspective to such query.

I would be reluctant to take a query regarding pregnancy if the query or back ground is not specific.

Like

If i would be pregnant in 2007 is a legitimate query for a person who is practising sex than as compared to person who is confirmed ascetic.

Similarly a query If i would EVER have a child is a kind of query which i would not like to answer.

ABout the vehicles query, let us leave it to the proper time. We can argue then. :lala

Regards.


STJ


P.s. Adoption or step children are 1-11 issues, not from hope or desire perspective but from different significance of houses. :brows
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

22
Hello,

sorry I haven't reply you before, but I was really busy :-?
It's interesting to read all your answers; but I have to say I've always looked 1st and 4th house for apartment, as I understand 4th house (also)represents buying and selling property (and I want to buy an apartment very near in the future); relation 4th - 7th could be if the question was "Will be new apartment better than this I'm staying in now". Well, but I'm absolute beginner :???:

Anyway, I now I have in mind the apartment :wink: ; last week I saw one, then I went to drink a coffee and think about buying it.
I asked myself "Should I buy this flat/is this flat o.k.?"
17.05.2007 at 14:44 in Ljubljana, Slovenia

What you see at once is relation between 1st and 11th :P , Moon as lord of 11th is conjuncting Mercury as lord of ASC. So everybody here is right :brows . Lord of this apartment is Jupiter placed in 3rd house in his own sign and slowly conjuncting 4th, but he is retrograde! He is making oposition :-? to Mercury in 9th in Gemini. I really don't know the meaning of this and I have many doubts about this apaprtment. Is quite expensive (but that's normal in Ljubljana :-sk ) and it is 5 minutes from centre, so it's o.k.. It's older, but well maintained, except bathroom needs some adaptation because of moisutre - here is my biggest doubt :???:
So if you in the mood to add something to this chart, I'll appreciate that a lot.

Best wishes
A.

24
Anaban--

This query is more specific than the previous one. The seller is not mentioned in this query but the property asked of is an identifiable.

Should i buy this proeprty is different from will i buy an apartment.

It is more asking for an advice whether the transaction if enterd into would be viable or not.

There are two considerations to see.

-Is this (buying or intention to buy) a good idea

-What would be the ultimate future of this transaction if its entered into.


-The angles are mutable. Indicating fits and starts. Making an idea then dropping it. Weighing pros and cons.

-The Moon is cadent, however she is applying to her dispositor ---Mercury--who though in cadent house is in his/her own house. The Moon is effective but curtailed. Its not impedited.

-The Lord of Ascendant is Cadent but in his own house--i.e Gemin--but in 9th house.

-The Lord of 4th house is a greater benefic i.e Jupiter

-The Lord of 4th house is Jupiter. In his own house i.e Sagittarius --wtihin 5 degrees of IC and is retrograde.

-The Lord of ascendant and Lord of 4th though strong are forming an opposition.

-The rule is that if L1 and Lord of quesited are in angles and of their own house or in house of exaltation and forming an opposition. The thing quesited is a good idea but difficult. The problem here is that both are effective in cadent houses. So, my take is that it would be a good idea to buy the house.

-Price?. The Lord of 10th house is Mercury--but since Mercury is L1, we can take Venus who is in 10th house. Venus is Lord of 2nd house. So, the price may be higher but it could be managed.

-And about the Property?. The L4 is Jupiter in 3rd house in Sagittarius but Rx. Lets balance it. Jupiter is not infortune but is retrograde. So, if you buy it you would not hold it long and would be tempted to re-sell it . However, the house or buying this house would be a good idea.

-Seller?. He was not in the query. But Lord of 7th house is Jupiter. Since Jupiter is Lord of 4th house we can take Mars in the 7th house who is in his own house and dignified. The result is that seller is diificult to contend He is high in his expectations. but if appraoched through an agent or third party he could be managed. Cause Moon separates from Mars and is appyling to L1. But Moon is Cadent. So, seller still has an edge.

-Lastly. POF is in first house and his dispositor i.e Venus is in 10th house. This is a good omen.

Conclusion.

The above indications were mixed. The angles are mutable. The L4 though Rx and cadent (effective) is dignified. The L1 is cadent but dignified. Both are in opposition but they are dignified. My take is that buy this house (which would be difficult cause L1 and L4 are in opposition) and its price would be raised in august. Lateron, you can sell it and buy property in another area. It would be good investment for the time being

Regards.

STJ
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

25
-The rule is that if L1 and Lord of quesited are in angles and of their own house or in house of exaltation and forming an opposition. The thing quesited is a good idea but difficult. The problem here is that both are effective in cadent houses. So, my take is that it would be a good idea to buy the house.
Maybe, but applying oppositions are usually taken as likely to bring problems and trouble, and would at least need a strong reception to show any chance of satisfaction (and then with difficulties!) Here we only have a MR by term. Yes the Moon applies to Mercury its dispositor and two essentially dignified significators, but Mercury?s cadency and opposition to 4th-ruler would still make me wary.

What STJ says about buying and then reselling seems a good way to make sense of the retrograde 4th house significator, but if you are hoping to purchase a property to settle in, then I wouldn?t take the risk of making such a big investment on a chart that has the potential for trouble that this one has.

26
Deb:

I was bit perplexed how to balance the rule which states

If the significators are in angles and in their own house or in their exaltation and if they are friends and each in the 9th division of the other than the things inquired is very much possible if the aspect between them is an opposition.(Tajik--Albairuni rule of pefection)

The only problem in this horary is that significators are cadent. So, kind of Mix Art with Discretion problem with me and i thought/judged that the thing is possible. :). I stand corrected. Cadency denies perfection.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

27
I?m not familiar with that source but it contradicts the reasoning that you?ll find in traditional sources like Lilly and Bonatus, where the opposition is taken as an indication that the situation is unsuitable. It?s not a simple rule because context always plays a part, so it does require a judgement call. For example in some situations it is better to have a cadent but essentially dignified significator (especially a superior one) than an angular significator that is inferior and afflicted accidentally.
If this were a situation where the querent had no choice ? she needed to make this deal, then we might say that the situation is really difficult, but because there is an aspect (even though it is an opposition), there?s a small chance of perfection ? though there will be problems both before and after. Hence you will find some aphorism that talk about the opportunity for perfection by opposition, if there are mitigating circumstances, and if great effort is made. But the querent here has options and choices. She doesn?t need to purchase this particular apartment and says she has already has many doubts about it. The chart shows problems, she has the opportunity to make another choice, so I think in this situation she should be encouraged to keep looking.