Receiving of a Horary Query-Which Time/Place should be used

1
Hi All!---


An important discussion is going on in another thread which is not relevant to topic but is important. I am reproducing it so that we can share and discuss.

-------------------

MarkC---

Hello STJ,

You didn't give us a date for the question. However it matches 9.16pm on the 27th if you are locating the chart to Dublin, Ireland!

However, horary is different from natal astrology in that the timing/location is focused on the astrologer not the client. It only matters what time and place you received and understood the question in Pakistan. I assume you forgot to check the local time you received the question?

Ireland is operating one hour ahead of GMT at present due to Summer daylight saving changes. Islamabad is therefore currently +4 hours ahead of Dublin. So it was presumably 01.16am on the 28th your time in Islamabad. I have the Ascendant as 7'21 in Aquarius.

Good luck

Mark

------------------------------

STJ--

Hi MarkC!---

Thanks.

Now this adds to confusion. There are divergent point of views regarding receiving of a question.

Some consider that the time and place of the Querent is the right time as its the proper birth of a question. Some regard that it is the time and place of Astrologer--who receive the question--which is important. For consistency i see the time and place of Querent.

Here are few links

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... ossary.htm

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrolog ... stions.php
----------------------------------------------------------

MarkC--


Hello STJ,

In your link to the article in Astrology Weekly.com the author (Radu Moisoiu) points out he will only accept timed charts from querents if they have a training in horary. Similarly in her book 'The Martial Art of Horary' Lee Lehman only suggests taking the questioner's time if the querent is a trained and experienced horary inquirer, but when it is not the case, or the astrologer has doubts about that, she suggests using the astrologer's time is the wisest option.

I'm not clear what your link to Maurice McCann's site meant. Was there something there you specifically wanted to point out?

I accept things are more complicated these days with International communication by telephone, email, and text message. However, in previous times astrologers would do horary by receipt of a letter. In such charts they would cast a chart for for their location/time of understanding the question. Indeed that still happens.

Philosophically, I strongly feel the astrologer is a participant in the process. Our consciousness is part of the astrological reality not something outside looking in. So I would always seek to time the chart as the astrologer unless another astrologer was asking for an opinion on their horary. Why else did Bonatti and Lilly point out that there were certain reflections in the chart of the astrologer? For example Saturn in the 7th when the astrologer is likely to err in their judgement?

However, its an interesting issue. Perhaps you should create a thread on this and get more feedback?


-------------------------------------------------------------


STJ---


Hi MarkC!----

Yes i do feel that it needs a separate thread. But since there are strong arguments to support both views. It may provide a good discussion but the people from both sides of the coin would strongly support their point and will leave me high and dry .( I allude to a discussion which took place regarding Eight House Sex discussion)

Since i am novice, so Querents place and time seems more appropriate.

BTW, Querent knew what he was asking and was well educated. If i use the time and place of astrologer, as you prefer. Then the 7th house is Leo 7. Interestingly it is exact degree of my Natal ascendant. If i use Querents time and place, i get ascendant as Scorpio 13.16 (Via combusta) which exatly describes the state of mind of the Querent, and the chart is more in line with the Querent situation.

Regarding McCanns link. I wanted to draw your attention to the following

HOW TO LOCATE THE QUESTION
Always use the latitude and longitude of the person asking the question since the question was born in their mind at their location and not at that of the astrologer. It is their question and only they fully understand it.


HOW TO TIME THE QUESTION
The moment the question is asked either face to face or by telephone is the time to use for drawing the horoscope, whether it is fully understood or not. If the question is included in a letter, fax or on electronic mail, it should be timed for the moment the astrologer reads the question. If the question is not fully understood by the astrologer at that moment, it can be clarified later in discussion with the querent.


Yes, you are right, International communication has clouded the issue of receiving of a Question.

Confusion, confusion


STJ

------------------------------------------------------------------------

MarkC--


Hello STJ,

Astrology is full of such choices or 'confusion' if you prefer. For example what house system to use? Do we use the outer planets or not? Modern rulerships or traditional? If we choose traditional astrology do we use an early modern, medieval or hellenistic approach?

I think a lot of people seek out traditional astrology looking for more certainty. However, astrologers always have and always will disagree on areas of technique. Astrology is primarily an art not a science. Like a good artist we need to develop a technique we are comfortable with. Like artists we have our common ground such as paint and canvass but ultimately we must adopt a style that works for us.

It is interesting to see Maurice McCann's view on this. He is an astrologer I respect a lot. I still find his conclusion difficult to accept though. As you state this issue would bring up passion on both sides. However, that is no bad thing. Its not about point scoring or ego. Hopefully, we can all learn something from such discussions. Just as long as there remains more light than heat........

Mark


-------------------------------------------------------------

STJ---

Hi MarkC---

Ok. We can create another thread (i will post all of this in a separate thread). Yes, you are right difference of techniques do exist in Traditional astrology. But i prefer consistency of approach.

Like i have made up my mind many days ago, that i will use Regiomontanus and time and place of Querent. Psychologically, people will respond to my choice.

Suppose if had been using astrologer time and place as a standanrd. My friend should have called me at different time. Interestingly he called me at 01.16 am (Pakistan) and i was sleeping, so unconsciously if my friend has to respond to my choice of receiving of a question, he will call according to his time and place, not caring that i am supposed to be sleeping.

ahem ahem. Horary seems to be more mysterious.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

2
Hello STJ,

Well you could have let it go to answerphone or s/he could have emailed. Alternatively, he could have written down the question and timed it before contacting you later. Your surely, not suggesting the astrologer has to be at the immediate disposal of querents on a 24/7 basis? :-?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

More generally, what do other people think about this issue? What do you do if the querent is a considerable distance away in terms of locating the the question in time and space? Do you use the querent or yourself as the astrologer as the reference point?

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

4
Hi MarkC!----

If some one sends me an email. I will use his time and place. If he writes a letter. I will use the time and place of Querent.

There is a practice of horary astrologers in Pakistan. Which is in this format

Query______________

Time of Query___________

Place of Query__________

And people send them questions through post. :???:
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

5
Hello STJ,

Thats very interesting! I have noticed a few books on Jyotish Horary and mean't to check them out to compare technique with western astrology.

While this isn't the approach I personally use I can see the logic of that position. Although, you are by definition heavily reliant on accurate timing from the questioner and them phrasing a coherent question in the first place. I sometimes, have to get back to people to clarify what they are asking. Presumably, you don't do this if you see the inital moment of the question from the querent as the purest?
One can receive a pressing query at any time. But if i leave it to astrologer that he/she will only receive a query according to his schedule and Time/place. It means that he is not letting Sun in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th house. Most of the time the Sun would be above the Earth.
That rather depends on the person looking at the charts. Some of us are night Owls!

6
Hi MarkC---

My position will be that the time of intial query is valid one and later clarification have no bearing.

We as a horary astrologers know that few days ago. Venus and Mars were in trine with mutual reception. Libra as an ascendant it is 1-7 query (and we admit that most of the queries are 1-7)

If people say that the time and place is when the astrologer opens a letter or checks email. Then i can deliberately manipulate the reading. I will check emails and letter at the time when libra is ascendant and will pronounce all the Querents as husbands and Wives. :lol:

Or now a days Venus and Mars were in square. So i will judge all to be at variance with each other.

The spirit of horary is spontaneous question. An astrologer should not be allowed to time it according to his convenience of opening a letter or checking emails.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

8
On the Astrologyweekly website, one gets a lot of solicitations for freebie readings. Although there is a stipulation that querents have to post the time *they* asked the question, and then attempt to read it, this sometimes doesn't happen. Who reads the small print, nowadays?

Being that there are hundreds of budding horarists on that site, I think the general practice, if there is no 'original' time, is to use the time that the question was posted to the site; that way, there is a 'documented' time that all the astrologers can use so as not to have hundreds of variations in the chart.

I think there must be a certain flexibility in timings for charts, depending on the context. If the querent has an exact time, I use that one, since that is the source of the origin of the question. But otherwise I read it when I receive it. Seems to work well enough... :)

GH

9
Hi All,
If people say that the time and place is when the astrologer opens a letter or checks email. Then i can deliberately manipulate the reading. I will check emails and letter at the time when libra is ascendant and will pronounce all the Querents as husbands and Wives.
STJ, sure people could try :lala . However, my money is on the mercurial stars out-foxing astrologer attempts at manipulation. For example, the charts may not be radical, or Saturn in 7th astrologer error, or Saturn in 10th astrologer reputation damaged if s/he judges the chart and so on.

If the stars reflect back to us, then deliberately skewing query times will be reflected back in charts that yield skewed answers (non-answers, trick for trick). IOW, honest questions from querents and astrologers, honest answers from the stars. imo

Christina

10
Deb teaches in her horary course to use the time and place of the astrologer. Geoffrey Cornelius in The Moment of Astrology, pp.117-118, says,
The what of the horary moment is not simply the posing of a significant question. It is the posing of a significant question to an astrologer, with the explicit intention that this question shall be subject to astrological judgement. ... A horary is not like a natural creature, born at a particular time and place. Neither is it a 'significant question' floating around without an astrologer to answer it. The whole project depends upon the participation and mutual intentions of astrologer and client.
For these reasons I use the time and place of the astrologer as "the moment of astrology."

11
Hello again,

Like Tara I have studied horary with Deb and was taught her approach ie time the question from the point the astrologer understands the question. That has always seemed the natural way to practice horary to me. We are participants in the process. A horary without an astrologer to interpret it is meaningless. It only becomes meaningful when an astrologer brings her/his consciousness to the question at hand.

I note John Frawley teaches this approach to horary too:
Cast the chart for the moment the astrologer understands the question. In the past, the astrologer would usually be sitting with the client when the question was asked . Today questions are often asked at a distance, both of time and space; by email, phone, post, or recorded on an answerphone. It is the moment at which the astrologer reads or hears the question that is used for setting the chart, not the time at which the querent poses it. The Horary Textbook, (page 7), John Frawley
Frawley also teaches using the location of the astrologer:
The place for which the chart is set is that of the astrologer. In the past astrologer and querent were usually in the same room; today they are often continents apart. As we take the time at which the question is understood, so we must take the place at which it is understood; the location of the astrologer. According to traditional philosophy the question does not really exist until it meets the ear of one who can answer it. Until then it is a no-thing. The Horary Textbook, -page 8- John Frawley.
.

12
Hi All!

It seems that i am the odd man out. Well if Deb doesnt prefer my system then most probably William Lilly doesnt prefer my system, cause she seems to follow more closely the spirit of what he teaches in CA. :) . Even i have seen John Frawley knitting his brows.

I am with you guys temporarily. Let see if i have any other opinions. I can concoct hundered of valid reasons to support my reasons but then bigotry is not going to do me any good. Within few days i would call eminent horary astrologers in Pakistan and will post their reasons and their system. It may turn out that none of them agrees with what i think is the right approach.

I will try to seek opinion of following persons

Ghazi Munajam of Rawalpindi
Intizar Hussain Shah Zanjani of Lahore.
Liagat Munajum of Karachi. and
Wasif Burni of Karachi

So, let see. :)
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/