Deciphering Lilly: an 11th house question

1
Hello all,

I am having a sticky time with some Lilly wording, and would be grateful for a clarification.

My query is to Lilly's 'If a man shall have the thing hoped for?' CA 458 from the zip file. In it, Lilly says:
Behold if there be any good aspect between the Lord of the ascendant and the 11th, or Reception or translation of light, or that the Lord of the 11th in the ascendant: all or any of these gives hope of obtaining the same.
Then he says:
If you find the Receiver of the disposition of the Moon in a common Signe, judge he shall have but part of the thing hoped for...etc.
and then
If you find the Receiver of the Moon received, he shall likewise obtaine the same, and more then he looked for: if you find the Lord of the ascendant received, he shall obtaine whatsoever he hoped for: this must be understood in things feasible and possible
Okay, I understood the first part of what Lilly said, e.g. the Lord of the ascendant and the Lord of the 11th in application or reception, or the Moon and the 11th, etc. gives a positive outcome. Clear enough.

But 'Receiver of the disposition of the Moon': I assume this is the dispositor of the Moon...? In my query, the dispositor of the moon is the Sun, as the Moon is in Leo. They have separated from a square, but are in strong mutual reception. But the Sun has nothing to do with the query except as a secondary significator (although it is descriptive of the situation behind the query, so perhaps this, too, is relevant).

Could someone please clarify 'Receiver of the Moon received' etc. for me, and let me know how relevant this is, since the crux of my query was answered already by the Moon (1st ruler) and Lord 11 (Venus) in positive application by house and sextile.

Thanks for any suggestions!
Best wishes,
Gunhilde

2
Hi Gunhilde
But 'Receiver of the disposition of the Moon': I assume this is the dispositor of the Moon...?
Because of the way that Lilly generally uses this phrase, I think it is more likely that he means the planet that the Moon applies to. The two comments that follow are taken from my article at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/reception2.html (The 2nd paragraph is the most pertinent).


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The word dispositor is applied to the dignity ruler, meaning 'the one who gives a final settlement', (to dispose of something means to settle it, to bring an end to it, or to arrange it into order). Through the use of this term we can see that, whilst the dispositing planet holds a position of control, it is also bound by a responsibility to accept the influence that is committed to it, to acknowledge it, and to do something with it. The state of acceptance is implicit in the word 'receiving'. We can also see very clearly from the Bonatus explanation, that where a planet is in aspect with a planet that is located in its own dignities, it "commits and gives its own disposition and nature and virtue to it", even, as Bonatus tells us, "if they were enemies".

It is worth including a mention to the astrological meaning of the related term 'disposition', which derives from the same root as the word dispose and dispositor but is used in a different sense. In general terms 'disposition' means something akin to character, temperament, or influence ('she had a sweet disposition', etc), and astrologically a planet 'committing its disposition to another' is used to demonstrate a planet impressing its influence upon another planet (the word itself, being drawn from an association with 'disposing', can be used to suggest the act of bestowing or transferring to another, just as the word 'influence' does). In aspects, the planet that is 'committing its disposition' is the swifter moving planet that is most readily forming the aspect, and the slower planet that is being applied to is the 'receiver of the disposition'.

3
Hmmm. Thanks, Deb. So, to clarify:

In my chart, Venus (11th ruler: hoped-for outcome) in Gemini, receives the disposition of the Moon in Leo (Ascendant ruler Moon), as the moon is applying by sextile? I still don't *quite* understand the implications of this.

The querent, Moon, and quesited, Saturn, occupy the 1st house. 'Hoped for outcome', 11th, Venus, applies to Saturn, but Moon applies first to Venus and then to Saturn, so transference of light occurs as well.

I would take this as a 'yes' for this particular query although Venus only has dignity by term right now, but what has confused me is the 'Receiver of the Moon received' etc., as well as 'Receiver of the Moon in a common signe' etc. Venus in Gemini, common sign, but what on Earth is 'receiver of the Moon received'?

I guess what I want to know is: how much does that mitigate in what otherwise seems a fairly clear-cut answer? :???:

Best,
Gunhilde :)

4
but what on Earth is 'receiver of the Moon received'?

Where there is reception of the planet being applied to. Sorry I can?t expand further. I have serious computer problems at the moment ? cutting and pasting is fine but I can only type about 5 words a minute. I am sourcing a new computer, until I get that sorted out, it is hard to comment in the posts. !

7
Thanks Deb---

You clarified the term "Dispositor" for me while answering Gunhilde. :)

Reading Lilly is great. Knowledge. Authority and some material to confuse my girl friend.

I will say to her.

It is generally received, that the receiver of the moon is received. Behold O Girl, what i want is mutual reception with a request that you apply to me in my nocturnal house of joy of venus.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

8
Gunhilde,

What Deb said was great and so much better and more informative than I could have written, but there is another issue with using Lilly's guideance on the 11th house, and that is, should you really use the 11th house as the significator in a question.

Lilly uses the 11th house to signify the thing that's hoped for or wanted, but that's far different from using it most, or even in any questions. When you think about it, all questions involve something that we want or hope for. But that's only the most general sense. At their heart, most all questions involve something more specific - finances, love, health, jobs, children, etc. Those areas of life point to one or another of the houses, and those houses would be the significators inn our questions.

Lilly only uses the 11th house as the significaor of the thing that's hoped for in one very specific situation, and that is when the querent comes to you with a question that they can't or won't divulge. If they won't tell you what the question is about, and thereby you won't be able to know if this is a question about finances, love, health, jobs or children, then and only then do you fall back on the 11th house. Since this seems to be your question, then you really can't safely use the 11th house in this way, because you know the subject of the question and the house which rules that part of life.

I'm sorry to throw water on your reading of your chart. I'd also would not recommend using the 11th house ruler as a co-significator, mainly because I've never seen Lilly, Bonatti or anyone else use it that way. If you want a clear answer from your charts, it's best to start with solid technique. If you chose your significators carefully, you'll get reliable answers.
Mark F

9
Hi MarkF,

Yes, that is solid advice for any chart!

In this particular chart the 11th significator kind of 'carried' the rest of the question, as the primary significators were all in aspect, and Venus as the 11th 'collected' them into the 11th, after a fashion, which worked really well as the question was about reconciling a broken relationship. I was reading Lilly to verify that this would 'work', and then got stuck on the language. :)

Best,
GH

10
MarkF:----

Your post is substantiated by this quote appearing in--

......Lilly noted that if the querent has a secret wish but is unwilling to explain what it is, the condition of this house will show whether or not they are likely to receive what they desire.....(Deborah Houlding)

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h11.html

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With due respect to Deborah (as her site and forum has helped me a lot) i want to share my thoughts.(but i am novice and would like to be corrected)

1- Lilly appears to have not solved any question regarding 11th house and hopes (but even i dont claim to have minutely searched his book)

This appears in the beginning of his queries for 11th house

If the lord of this house be strong, fortune, and well aspected of the lord of the ascendant, it foresheweth the obtaining of the thing at present hoped for......(Christian Astrology p 457-458)


Where has he written that Querent has some question and is not willing to share?


2-The questions kept in heart are best mentioned as Zameer (The question kept in heart). Here is the remarks of one horary astrologer. This horary astrologer is at best a plagiarist, uses the work of authorities but not gives them credit in his book. However, evidence suggests that his authorities were Persian/Arabic horary astrologers.

From his book Raheem ul Wuktee Zaicha (Raheem Horary astrology---p41 and 42). The book is in urdu so i will try to translate. The ideas/explanations in brackets would be my own.


But experts in astrology have said time and again to not asnwer a zameer (a question in heart). My friends have insisted that i should write down the rules for finding zameer. Even i am against finding such. However, just for the sake of enthusiasts i am writng few rules. Remember, every query is two fold (or every question posed has two sides). One which is apparent and comes out as a question. This we refer as the query, the other one is kept in heart (or the real reason behind some question--like person asking for a divorce while infact he wants to marry a secretary :sg ). This query is not revealed at any stage. However, if he challenges an astrologer. It is called finding of a zameer. The more purer you are and more holy, the more you would be able to ascertain a zameer (strange---Mr. Raheem sounds like Lilly, however he never read CA). Experts have mentioned few rules for finding zameer. I will write down few.

a- If querent wants an artist (astrologer) to ascertain his zameer. See the horoscope. The lord of the ascendant placed in a house indicates that zameer relates to the significations of that particular house. The more an artist is gifted (spiritually) the more he would be able to ascertain the zameer (to find one signification out of many of the house where L1 is placed)

b-Emphasis should also be laid on planetry hour (the planet, its rulership and its placement in any house)

c-If the chart is diurnal. Take note of Sun and its placement in any house. If the chart is nocturnal take note of moon.......................


I have not translated the rest of his stuff but it relates to ascertainment of significators and their application etc which all members know.

3- In my opinion, hopes and wishes relating to 11th house are such the fulfillment of which depends on luck rather than application. Here are some of the scenarios.



a- Whether i would be able to strike a romatic relationship with Janet (here Janet doesnt even know me. I have never even said hey you....to her. In the absence of any relationship. SHe is not even 1-7 question. Cause she is not significant other. For me she is just one fancy and a very whimsical horary.

b-Will i get a job in an oil company?. I have not applied for such in a company. Havent seen the advertisement. The employers in oil companies are not aware of my existance as a prospective employee ( cause i have not submitted my CV). At best this is not 1-10 query but rather 1-11 query. It is just a wish and a hope.

Now, my question is. What are specifically the hopes, and wishes which relate to 11th house. At best what i understand is that those whishes for which i have not worked or applied fall in the realm of 11th house



Regards


STJ
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

11
Since I'm on the road in Chicago and I don't have my copy of Christian Astrology with me I can't supply the exact reference, but I am sure that it's there somewhere if Deb also cites it.

I wouldn't use the 11th house ruler as a significator in either of those situations. If it's any questions about a relationship, I'd use the 7th house ruler. If it's anything about a job, I'd use the 10th house ruler. But really I'm taking here about chosing which planets are the significators, which is only part of interpreting a chart. If the significator of the thing that you want is placed in the 11th house, that could be one layer of meaning that helps you read the chart. Or if the querent's significator is placed in the 11th house, that also has a positive meaning. But what I stay away from is using the ruler of the 11th house as a co-significator.

But STJ has raised an interesting point, and that is if we don't use it as a main significator in our questiosn, then how do we use it? I've recently seen an advance copy if Ben Dykes translation of Bonatti and he says similar things about the 11th house - that's it shows one's wishes and dreams, which he breaks down into things that are possible for one to achieve and things that are impossible for one to acheive. But he doesn't seem to ever use the ruler of the 11th house as a subsitute for or as a co-significator of the quesited. So this is very tantalizing and somewhat frustrating in the both Bonatti and Lilly hint at the role of the 11th house in questions. My take on all this is to fall back on the most basic rule and that is to always look at the chart that's actually in front of you. If the 11th house is emphasized in some way, then that tells you part of the answer. If it's not emphasized that's part of the story too.
Mark F