Hello, all! And, a question I'd like help with.

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This is my first post, so let me say hello to everyone. :) I have been studying horary astrology on and off, mostly off, since 1997. I know a little bit... probably just enough to get me into trouble... and I have two books on the subject. My accuracy in the past has surprised me when knowing the answer really mattered, but I am feeling like I must be skipping a lot of considerations somehow. So I thought I would post a question that is really important to me, and my judgement, and ask for the points of views and observations of those who see things I do not. I figure this will be a good learning experience.

Background: A series of events has unfolded that lead me to believe that someone very close to me has been keeping some rather big secrets from me and doing things she shouldn't be doing in a committed relationship, behind my back. The clues point to an abortion, among other things. Previous charts cast for this purpose have asked if she got pregnant with man X, Y or Z. All suggested a pregnancy, but said that the man named was not the father. It was then suggested to me that perhaps the reason I could not think of the possible father, and the reason for the abortion in the first place, was that she herself did not know who the father was, and she was too ashamed of this fact to keep the child and face her parents.

Question: Did Rebecca have an abortion in 2007?

Chart cast for:

Savannah, Georgia
April 20, 2007
04:57:34 PM EST
Zone +05
081W06
32N05
Placidus Houses
Geocentric Tropical

My interpretation:

Rebecca is represented by Aries on the 7th House cusp, and thus ruled by Mars, which is located at 11 Pisces 10 in the 6th House. An abortion would be ruled by the 5th House from the 7th, or the 11th. The sign on the 11th House cusp is Leo, which rules the 5th House, which rules children. The Sun is ruler of Leo, and the Sun is located at 00 Taurus 26 in the 7th House.

The Moon is located at 18 Gemini 18 in the 9th House, and is loosely conjunct Venus at 10 Gemini 16 in the 9th House also. The 9th House is the 3rd from the 7th.

Since the 7th House is the 1st House from the 7th, planets located within it represent Rebecca in some way. The planets located in the 7th House are Mercury at 17 Aries 26 and the Sun, which as stated previously, is at 00 Taurus 26.

That we have Mars in the 6th House (12th from the 7th) seems very appropriate... the 6th House/12th House correlation seems to show conflict, and weakness, and the fact that it is in Pisces would accurately reflect both the probable circumstances under which she would have become pregnant without knowing who the father was (drugs and/or alcohol inebriation) and the state of mind she would have had to have been in to have an abortion, as a conservative Christian woman (self delusion, denial, self undoing, secrets).

That we have Leo ruling the 5th House from the 7th is also very appropriate, since it is ruling it's own subject. That the Sun, ruler of the 5th from the 7th, is located in the1st from the 7th (House of the quesited's body and self) seems a strong indication symbolically that there was in fact a pregnancy. That we have Saturn at 18 Leo 09 in the 5th House from the 7th is further evidence that this is indeed a radical chart, showing that the pregnancy was not going to fare well. With the sun at 0 degrees in a fruitful sign, I can conclude that if thiswas a pregnancy, it was very early on (It would have been about 2 months along at most if an abortion happened).

To answer the question, Mars is at 11 Pisces 10 and the Sun is at 00 Taurus 26. Since Mars is not retrograde and the sun is the faster of these two planets, we can see that they form an applying sextile of slightly more than 11 degrees. Since, as I understand it, an applyingorb is effective in Horary astrology up to 29 degrees, this indicates he answer is YES, that she did have an abortion in 2007.

Just for the hell of it, I tried to see if I could get any symbolic meaning from the Moon's location. The Moon is at 18 Gemini 18, and co-rules the question. It is located in the 9th House and is loosely conjunct Venus by a separating ob of 8 degrees, 2 minutes of arc. Since the querent is ruled by the sign on the 1st House cusp, and that is Libra, I am represented by Venus. This again makes sense because the 9th House to the 1st is the 9th, which shows long distance. We are currently separated by 5 and a half hours driving time.

Another way I could look at this is that the question deals with her 3rd House, and the moon co-rules her. This would suggest that something happened with more than one partner that was a light, fun, playful experience, and that it was perhaps a neighbor or a couple (or both). The orb between Moon and Venus would suggest that she was probably enjoying herself, and maybe even stringing someone along to believe there was love between them, but not really in love with them. She has been known to lead men on to this conclusion in the past.

Possibly, this is a symbolism for her thinking it is okay to "play around on me with the locals" while we are apart.

Okay, there's my interpretation. Does anyone see anything missed, have a different opinion, think my judgement is in error, have any suggestions? If I am confident with this judgement (and so far I am) I am going to confront her about this.

Thanks, all.

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Hello, and welcome!

Blimey. What a mess. :shock:

The only thing I'm wondering about is whether abortion would be the 4th from the 5th; this would be in line with Ivy Goldstein Jacobson's view that the 4th from anything represents 'the end of the matter' of that thing; so the 4th from the 5th would be the 'end' of a pregnancy.

Anyone else?

Best wishes,
Gunhilde :)

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Gunhilde wrote:Hello, and welcome!

Blimey. What a mess. :shock:

The only thing I'm wondering about is whether abortion would be the 4th from the 5th; this would be in line with Ivy Goldstein Jacobson's view that the 4th from anything represents 'the end of the matter' of that thing; so the 4th from the 5th would be the 'end' of a pregnancy.

Anyone else?

Best wishes,
Gunhilde :)
According to my books, the 5th House rules the child's health, although I can see that possibly being the 6th from the 5th... in this case, the 6th house from the 5th house from the 7th house, if I understand this correctly. That would be the natural 4th House, which has 6 Capricorn 20 on the cusp, an Capricorn's ruler, Saturn, is in Leo in the 5th from the 7th. If there was a pregnancy, there are definite negative indications for the child's health, according to that point of view.

The 4th from the 5th from the 7th is the natural 2nd, which has 3 Scorpio 42 on the cusp... the fact that Scorpio rules death, and (from my experience, also deals to some degree with sex and secrets) fits well with this... my books suggest using Mars as ruler of Scorpio in Horary... and Mars is representing the end of the pregnancy AND the quesited! This also fits well with Mercury being in the 1st House. (Rebecca is a Capricorn, so I am presuming that Mercury in the 1st House means she divested herself of emotion in order to do this, which is something I have noticed that Caprcorns can do when they are in "business mode".)

It would seem that she consciously decided to end the pregnancy, which would also support the answer that it was an abortion, and not (for instance) a miscarriage, as I originally thought it might be.

There is a couple more things I didn't notice before... according to my books, any two planets in the same degree forming a relevant major aspect are considered partile even if they are separating by minutes of arc... this points to a partile sextile between the Moon and Saturn. If the moon co rules the question,or the quesited, this still makes sense to conclude that this was another YES answer to the question of an abortion.

The Moon as a timing device hasn't been considered yet, ether... the moon has recently finished a sextile to Mercury in the 1st House in Aries, recently separated from a square with Uranus at 17 Pisces 09 in the natural 6th House, is forming a partile sextile to Saturn, will shortly form an opposition to Jupiter at 19 Sagittarius Rx in the natural 3rd House, then a square to Neptune at 21 Aquarius 53 in the natural 5th House, followed by a quincunx to the Part of Fortune located at 23 Scorpio 46 in the natural 2nd House, and finally an opposition to Pluto at 28 Sag 52 Rx in the natural 3rd House.

I'm not very good at this part, but here's my best interpretation...

A sextile to Mercury in the recent past indicates that she only decided on the abortion shortly before she had it. It must have been a very rapid time from decision to action, and would have been a forceful, aggressive decision that she made on her own, possibly to "be first" in some way - head some possibility off before it came to pass, such as me finding out.

A separating square with Uranus would suggest that after she made the decision, something difficult and unexpected happened... that it was in Pisces suggests maybe she had some sort of dream. I know she was drinking more heavily than usual right before this probably happened, and smoking more heavily too. I'm not sure I understand this one well enough to comment, but the fact that Uranus was in the natural 6th (the 12th from the 7th) suggests something to do with Pisces again... drugs? Secrets? Dreams?

The partile sextile to Saturn suggests to me that there was an abortion, and that the chart shows that the question is focused on that, which it is.

Upcoming opposition to Jupiter retrograde in the 3rd House suggests to me that her luck will be running out, and since it's 1 degree of orb and the signs on the directions are all cardinal, it will be days, weeks or months that this happens in... it was about a day before it was suggested to me that this might be a miscarriage, which is what led me to consider an abortion. The natural 3rd House is the 9th from the 7th - I don't understand that part. Maybe it suggests that the luck will run out "at a distance", perhaps referring to me figuring this out where I am, possibly through astrology?

A square to Neptune at 21 Aquarius 53 in the natural 5th House, suggests that perhaps she is having a difficult time dealing with the abortion... bad dreams? Neptune is in the 11th from the 7th. Kind of lost here.

A quincunx to the Part of Fortune in the 8th from the 7th in Scorpio - as I understand it, quincunxes are strain and tension... she strains her luck over this secret perhaps? Or maybe keeping it secret strains her?

An opposition to Pluto at 28 Sag 52 Rx in the natural 3rd House (9th from the 7th) - maybe it becomes a powerful problem for her to deal with in terms of keeping the secret from me, or maybe she can't handle the pressure of the conflict with her religious beliefs anymore? This is 10 degrees, suggesting 10 weeks or 10 days. If the abortion happened on the 15th of March, as I believe, 10 days would have been the 25th of March, which would have been a time when I was spending considerable time and effort trying to force the truth out of her on all the things she had been doing behind my back. But she never admitted to even being pregnant... and if it indicates 10 weeks, then that's 2 and a half months from March 15th, or around June 15th. Maybe she'll come clean on or about June 15th?

Like I said, Moon as a timing device I'm not very good at. I'd appreciate anyone's assistance with all aspects of my interpretation so I can see what I left out, and what others agree with.

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Like I said, Moon as a timing device I'm not very good at. I'd appreciate anyone's assistance with all aspects of my interpretation so I can see what I left out, and what others agree with.

In my perception it looks like your trying to use astrology to get the upper hand with another person.
I don't agree with that.

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Tell you what, I see, Venus (you) about to perfect the square to mars (her), which pretty much makes me suspect the relationship is at an end.

You might also note that both your significators about to oppose (edit) and square, (end edit) the third house of communications significator jupiter,

Her fifth house significator would be the sun, which is generally a sterile sign for pregnancy, The sun is in her first house, close to second cusp, has just left its sign of exaltation so not very strong. so I'm not certain you are right about the abortion issue as it looks to me as if she is probably on birthcontrol. but I would definitely say unlikely to get pregnant with you.

Mercury her third house significator in her first house, so very imprtant to her is very well aligned with both Saturn and jupiter.

Also you might note her turned 9th house is Sagitarius, and Jupiter is residing there. if you dont watch your step here, you might be making your arguements with the authorities. Probably need to let go feeling wronged and just admit to yourself this relationship is at an end. Mars though in Pisces is in his favorite house, the 6th, mars rejoices here.

as for fooling around which is a seperate question, that would also be a fifth house issue, as you can see romance is interested in her, as it is in the first house, but mars has no decent alignment with sun so nothing going on. other reasonable course would be Venus who is about to end up single.

two things to think about. 1) anyone you dont trust as much as you dont trust this person is not someone to maintain a relationship with, someone is gonna get hurt and 2) your question doesnt' really fit what you want to know, which was, is she cheating on me. which just points you back to thought number one...

I am inclined to agree with Sunpluto on this one. I think your Horary was done with intent to win the upper hand in an arguement with your soon to be ex girlfriend. if she has any sense at all, in my opinion, she'll dump you.

Granny
Last edited by granny_skot on Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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SunPluto wrote:Like I said, Moon as a timing device I'm not very good at. I'd appreciate anyone's assistance with all aspects of my interpretation so I can see what I left out, and what others agree with.

In my perception it looks like your trying to use astrology to get the upper hand with another person.
I don't agree with that.
I am trying to ascertain the truth so I can try to save my relationship. I respect that you may have philosophical or moral differences with how I choose to go about it, but my options are fairly limited at his point. She will never admit to it if she doesn't believe I already know, and I cannot be certain enough that she did it to make her believe that unless I have more than just clues. If I accuse her and she is innocent, I will be damaging the very trust I am trying to recover. Since leaving her is not an option I can realistically consider at this time, can you offer me a better way to go about this?

Horary astrology is a tool for discovering the truth. I am using it to discover the truth so that I can try to save a marriage. How could that be wrong?

Moral or philosophical discussions aside, I am interested in knowing if my biases or fears or inexperience or limited knowledge of the subject have led me astray in my conclusion. I am interested in putting astrology to work for my betterment, and hers. I am interested in using the tools I have been given. And I am interested in learning from the experience, one way or the other, and becoming better astrologer. Can you help me? Please?

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your questions dont reflect trying ot recover trust, they reflect trying to place blame, and a thorough lack of trust, which was probably instituted by someone else. In my opinion. The Venus square mars really does not look good. it shows you instigating the end of the relationship.

Granny

PS the jupiter in Sag in her 9th could also indicat divorce.

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granny_skot wrote:Tell you what, I see, Venus (you) about to perfect the square to mars (her), which pretty much makes me suspect the relationship is at an end.

You might also note that both your significators about to oppose the third house of communications significator jupiter,

Her fifth house significator would be the sun, which is generally a sterile sign for pregnancy, The sun is in her first house, close to second cusp, has just left its sign of exaltation so not very strong. so I'm not certain you are right about the abortion issue as it looks to me as if she is probably on birthcontrol. but I would definitely say unlikely to get pregnant with you.

Mercury her third house significator in her first house, so very imprtant to her is very well aligned with both Saturn and jupiter.

Also you might note her turned 9th house is Sagitarius, and Jupiter is residing there. if you dont watch your step here, you might be making your arguements with the authorities. Probably need to let go feeling wronged and just admit to yourself this relationship is at an end. Mars though in Pisces is in his favorite house, the 6th, mars rejoices here.

as for fooling around which is a seperate question, that would also be a fifth house issue, as you can see romance is interested in her, as it is in the first house, but mars has no decent alignment with sun so nothing going on. other reasonable course would be Venus who is about to end up single.

two things to think about. 1) anyone you dont trust as much as you dont trust this person is not someone to maintain a relationship with, someone is gonna get hurt and 2) your question doesnt' really fit what you want to know, which was, is she cheating on me. which just points you back to thought number one...

I am inclined to agree with Sunpluto on this one. I think your Horary was done with intent to win the upper hand in an arguement with your soon to be ex girlfriend. if she has any sense at all, in my opinion, she'll dump you.

Granny
I appreciate your response, Granny, and your insight. Ironically enough, she is the one coming back to me after I left her in March for all that she has done. She has fought through hell and high water to convince me to let her come back, and I am simply trying to get all possible reasons why we might have problems out in the open and dealt with before she returns. I want this relationship to work, and I am doing everything I can to make it work, but I have to admit, I don't have high hopes either. But a promise is a promise, even if it was made before I had certain information.

Given what I know about all this, I think the square with Venus and Mars indicates a major fight, but I don't think the relationship will end for at least another two months, if it fails.

You are correct, she was on birth control when she has this "period" that had all the signs of being a repeat of her first abortion, which I was there to take care of her through. But she had only been on it a week, and had been off of it and without any birth control for at least a month before that, while admittedly being unfaithful.

How come you say that Mars makes no decent alignment to the Sun? Isn't that an applying sextile? If I get a yes to the abortion from that, are you saying she's potentially still being unfaithful?

I also fail to understand how you conclude that my real question would be other than what I asked. I asked her a dozen times why she was unfaithful when we were dealing with that issue. She told me the same thing every time. I would think that given her track record, she would have slipped up and changed her story if that answer was not true.

On the other hand, I have a lot of clues that she may have had an abortion, and is trying to hide it from me. If she did, I can try to get the truth out. If not,I'll leave it alone. Either way, I am only trying to make this work.

I understand that ladies may not like what I am trying to do, because abortion is a hot button topic. But really... allI want is a clean slate to try to start over with.

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granny_skot wrote:your questions dont reflect trying ot recover trust, they reflect trying to place blame, and a thorough lack of trust, which was probably instituted by someone else. In my opinion. The Venus square mars really does not look good. it shows you instigating the end of the relationship.

Granny

PS the jupiter in Sag in her 9th could also indicat divorce.
I think I am just going to not worry about it... Nothing good is going to come of pushing under the conditions you have pointed out.

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The sun willhave to many other transits before it makes a sextile to Mars, Sun moves faster than mars but since they were recently conj, the next real aspect would be semisquare, not sextile, and sun is busy making aspects to other planets, so unlikely to happen.

Also Mars is too busy having an aspect with Venus, moon, jupiter, North noe and even Uranus ... to look to the sun for big aspects in a timely manner.

If Mars goes to Sun, it will be AFTER this is all over. Though I wonder who saturn and Mercury are to you, cause i think you have interests elsewhere, In fact I'd say you have a hankerin for Mercury, whoever that might be. And saturn is a grumpy debilitated troublemaker. probably a family member.

Granny ...

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Hi all,

I havent had time to look at the chart, but ...

Im not sure but wouldnt you consider abortion to be simply a death of a child, so an 8th house matter? Id look for a separating aspect between a child and its death (Lord 5 and Lord 8) or Lord 5 in the 8th, or Lord 5 combust.

If nothing showed up in regards to the radical 8th house - then I'd turn the chart. If she is 7th house, her 5th (child) would be the 11th. Her childs death would be 8 houses from there, so would be the radical 6th. So Id look for a separating aspect between Lord 11 and Lord 6, or Lord 11 in the 6th, or Lord 11 combust.

Id look for an affliction to the 5th or 11th cusp, such as a debilitated Saturn, Uranus, Neptune or Pluto or a fixed star. (I'd also look for that on the 7th cusp.

I would think the death of the child would have to be shown as an event in itself?

Failing all that I'd look for a conception taking place in the past. ie Lord 5 or Lord 11 in the 7th or a separating aspect between them.

If I found any of those, I might then look for other more subjective testimonies that implied she was holding a secret, such as her significator in the 12th (a secret from you), or maybe in her 12th (self-undoing) or any links she has to Neptune.

It would be worthy to check the chart for antiscions, planets found in conjunction or opposition by antiscion often show matters that are hidden from normal view.

I dont think the squares between your significators shows a separation (if it was an opposition it very well may). I think a square shows a difficult exchange, a confrontation or challenge. Perhaps you will just ask her?

It would be worth looking at your own significators, Lord 1 and the Moon and anything afflicting them before you challenge her though. Once I had my own significator on Algol, and I had to rethink my suspicions!

Good luck with this.
Red Shoes