Which Sect do you follow?

1
Hello everybody,

Hope that everything is fine.

I have a question (or rather seeking your opinion) on the matter of sect.

Preamble

According to the ancients, odd zodiacal signs are given diurnal sect and even zodiacal signs are given nocturnal sect.

Planets also have sect i.e. Sun, Jupiter, Saturn are considered diurnal sect and Venus, Mars and Moon are of nocturnal sect (Mercury being variable).

The chart also has sect. Diurnal chart = diurnal sect and nocturnal chart = nocturnal sect.

The definition of in sect (vs. out of sect) can be summarized as follows:

Diurnal planets in the hemisphere of the sun are considered in sect and diurnal planets opposite to the hemisphere of the sun are considered out of sect.

Nocturnal planets opposite to the hemisphere of the sun are considered in sect and nocturnal planets in the hemisphere of the sun are considered out of sect.

Note that the sect of the chart is not important in defining In Sect and Out of Sect planets.

In sect planets are considered ?strengthened? and out of sect planets are considered ?weakened?.

BUT

There are also references which say that diurnal planets are strengthened in diurnal charts and nocturnal planets are strengthened in nocturnal charts. Similarly, diurnal planets are weakened in nocturnal charts and nocturnal planets are weakened in diurnal charts. Let us call this planetary-chart sect agreement.

The question:-

Which would you give priority? The In Sect / Out of Sect state or the planetary-chart sect agreement.

For me, I would give more priority to the In Sect / Out of Sect state. Using the planetary-chart sect agreement automatically strengthens one set of planet and weakens the other set of planets, e.g. if you are born during the day ? automatically your Sun, Jupiter and Saturn strengthened and your Venus, Mars and Moon weakened. But this is not so if you use the In Sect / Out of Sect definition. Though Sun (or Jupiter or Saturn) is a diurnal planet and you are born during the day ? it can still be Out of Sect (if it happens to be below the horizon i.e. opposite the hemisphere of the sun). Likewise, though you are born during the night, Saturn can still be In Sect if it happens to be below the horizon (in this case with the hemisphere of the sun).

The reason I asked this question is because in Firmicus Maternus? Mathesis (and other ancient references), we see that he keeps on saying Saturn in day chart or Mars in night chart, etc. ? which suggests that he follows the planetary-chart agreement method. So in his case, diurnal planets will be expressed in a more positive manner in diurnal charts (and more negative in nocturnal charts). In addition, nocturnal planets will be expressed in a more positive manner in noctunal charts (and more negative in diurnal charts).

Whereas in Liber Hermetis (and a few other ancient references), we keep seeing: Saturn in sect ?, if Mars is in the term of whatever and in sect?- which suggests that the author follows the In Sect / Out of Sect definition in giving his delineation. So, regardless of sect of chart, In Sect planets are more positive in and Out of Sect planets are more negative in their delineation.

So, which SECT are you in and why?

2
I would like to say I have a clear cut answer, but of course I don?t.
How I am dealing with sect right now, and of course can be totally wrong, is to use the "chart sect" as an indicator of quality, and the sect-sect as indicator of quantity.

That way, I can use the concepts that are written in Firmicus and Paulus Alexandrinus, and still use a little of what we understand as sect nowadays
;-)
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

3
This is an important topic, but it needs a bit of clarity.

Sect is determined by the position of the Sun. The Sun above the horizon means the chart is diurnal, below the horizon itis nocturnal. That's easy.

As stated above, each planet is either diurnal or nocturnal with Mercury being his usual ambiguous self. Finally the so called masuline signs are diurnal and the feminine signs are nocturnal.

Therefore it is possible for a planet to be completely in sect, partly in sect, or completely out of sect. For example. Jupiter in Sagittarius above the horizon in a diurnal chart is completely in sect. The Arabic term for this condition is Hayz. Jupiter in Sagittarius in a diurnal chart below the horizon is partly in sect. It is the case of a dirurnal planet in a diurnal sign, but below the horizon in a diurnal chart. Venus in Aries above the horizon in a diurnal chart is completely out of sect as is Mars in Leo above the horizon in a diurnal chart. There is no traditional term for this, but Rob Hand suggests ex conditio.

According to Hand:

If a planet's sect is not in accord with any one of these three factors, the planet is to that degree, out of sect and it is to that extent altered in its expression in the chart. The manner of the alteratio as we have inferred it from the ancient writings seems to be a ixuer of quantity and quality, that is, in some ways a planet out of sext seems to be merely inhibited in its expression, as if its power were lessened; but some planets, especially the malefics, see, to be made more malefic in quality, and not lessened in quantity at all."
Is this true? Hand later uses the chart of Richard M. Nixon to make his point. Nixon had Saturn in Taurus retrograde in the 9th. It is completely out of sect. Hand then uses some well known or at least commonly assigned personal attributes of Nixon, cynical, distrustful, lack of belief in the essential decency of others and attributes them to his Saturn. Let's be serious, he was a politican all his life. Of course he was cynical and distrustful. At his wife's funeral he burst into tears of grief and the TV reporter covering the event mocked him for it (out of earshot of Nixon). Give anyone a lifetime of that, and his trust in the decency of others would have shattered.

Still those are, as Hand points out, good Saturn descriptions. I wonder though if Saturn being retrograde doesn't tell us the same thing - works against the native.

I found another chart with Saturn completely out of sect. Saturn is below the horizon, in a diurnal chart, in a nocturnal sign. The chart is that of cowboy movie star, Roy Rogers, perhaps as decent a man as anyone would ever meet not to mention quite successful. Saturn rules his ASC.

Another is jazz singer Sarah Vaughn whose Saturn (diurnal planet) is in Scoprio (nocturnal sign) above the horizon, in a nocturnal chart. Saturn is in 12, retrograde and rules her 3rd house. In her youth, the musicians nicknamed her "Sailor" because she swore like one. There might be a connection here, plus Saturn is in mutual reception with Mars in Capricorn.
But Sarah Vaughn was universally liked and respected.

John Allen Williams has his Mars (nocturnal) perfectly placed in Cancer (nocturnal) above the horizon in a nocturnal chart. Remember him? He's the infamous Beltway Sniper" who killed several people in the northern Virginia, Washington, DC area a few years back. Mars is in his fall in Cancer.

The point is that sect may well influence a planet, but not so much that it can overcome esential dignity or debility. Nixon's Saturn is retrograde, a serious debility. Sarah Vaughn's Saturn is in the 12th house and also retrograde. Roy Rogers' Saturn is in Taurus retrograde and in his 3rd house and retrogade as well. John Allen's otherwise well placed Mars is in the sign of his fall. Ironicaly, my instinct would have been to argue that hayz might help an otherwise debilitated malefic to behave better. Saturn in Leo in a day chart is in hayz, but seriously debilitated. Perhaps being in hayz alleviates some of the mischief Saturn might otherwise cause. I think sect deserves study, but I doubt it is of exceptional importance.

Tom

4
Hello,

Well, if one wishes to be technical we actually have:-

Planets in halb (which is the same as my definition of in sect) are:
Diurnal planets in the hemisphere of the sun i.e. diurnal planets above the horizon during the day or below the horizon during the night AND

Nocturnal planets in the opposite hemisphere of the sun i.e. nocturnal planets above the horizon during the night or below the horizon during the day.
Source: Al-Biruni.

Planets in hayyiz are:
Planets that are in halb as well as in the sign of the same gender as the planets.
(Sources: Al-Biruni, and also others e.g. Ibnu Labban, Abu Ma?shar,?)

Note that in both definitions, the agreement of the chart sect (day or night chart) and planetary sect is not important.

Example:
Case 1: Consider moon above the horizon in a night chart in Taurus.
Moon (nocturnal planet) above the horizon in a night chart = in Halb = in Sect
Moon is also in feminine sign, then we have Moon in Hayyiz.

Case 2: Consider moon below the horizon in a day chart in Taurus.
Moon (nocturnal planet) below the horizon in a day chart = in Halb = in Sect
Moon is also in feminine sign, then we have Moon in Hayyiz.

Rob Hand?s definition would only allow in Hayyiz state for case 1 and not case 2 because in case 2 nocturnal planet is considered weakened in a day chart (no agreement between planetary sect and chart sect) BUT the Arabs (if I understand it correctly) would take both cases as in Hayyiz.

Whatever the case, I would prefer to use the Halb definition for sect i.e. planets in halb = planets in sect.

6
Hello,

I find this discussion very interesting and problematic. Thanks astrojin for your detailed explanations.

I tried in the past a reconciliation between sect according to In Sect / Out of Sect state and sect according to day/night chart.

I found three main situations:
the two opinions are contradictory,
the two opinions can be used together but in this case either one of them should be taken as principal, either simply to give them the same importance
the two opinions refer to different criteria so it?s quite inappropriate to establish which one is the right solution.

I shall spare my readers, and give only my conclusions:

I would retain for sect calculation day/night chart. The reason is that I think that the sect problem refers to light, the Sun light. Sun is the one that gives us the day and night distinction (Sun at East horizon means the beginning of a new day, Sun setting means the end of the day, night begins. the daily passage of Sun signifies different hours of the day/night). Another principal that would be an argument is that, from what I could understand reading the astrological corpus, astrological techniques derive in one way or another from the Sun and with extension Moon.

Arguments against In Sect / Out of Sect state.
The theory starts from what is called the hemisphere of Sun. This concept is for me at least puzzling. What should we understand? The sun hemisphere is half of the Celestial Sphere with reference to Horizon? this is not the Sun hemisphere. is simply a part of Celestial Sphere.
Is this Sun hemisphere the area where the light of the Sun reaches? some kind of a bound of light and shadow? this could be true only in a metaphorical sense. In reality at the same moment a planet in a different hemisphere with reference to the Horizon, is in the same hemisphere with the Sun in a different location.

Members don?t take it personally. It?s only a matter of opinion. So let?s discuss