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Position comparison

 
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zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject: Position comparison Reply with quote

Let's compare two positions of Mars: in 22 Pisces and in 2 Leo.
Which Mars is stronger, which one work better?

According to traditionalists, Mars in 22 Pisces has dignity by triplicity, term and face, but Mars in 2 Leo has no essential dignity.

According to modernists Mars in Leo is indisputably stronger.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Zuli,

Mars in 22 deg pisces:-

Positive:
1. In its own term (Egyptian)
2. In its own triplicity (Dorothean 2nd trip ruler for diurnal chart and Dorothean 1st trip ruler for nocturnal chart)
3. In its own face
4. In the sign of the greater benefic (Jupiter rules Pisces)
5. In the exalted sign of the lesser benefic (Venus is exalted in Pisces)
6. Planetary sect is in agreement with the sign sect (Mars and Pisces are nocturnal)

Negative:
1. Mars is the lesser malefic
2. Planetary gender does not agree with the sign gender (Mars is masculine but Pisces is feminine)
3. The planetary nature does not agree with sign nature (Mars is considered hot + dry with excessive dryness, Pisces a water sign is cold + humid/wet)

What we connot judge w/o further information (but still important!):
1. Reception
2. House position (angular/succedent/cadent)
3. House rulership
4. Aspects from and to other planets
5. Sect, we need the info day/night birth
6. The state of its dispositor
6. Whether combust, retrograde, elevated, VOC
7. Purpose of chart - is it a birth chart, is it a horary/electional chart, is it a decumbiture chart, is it a mundane chart?

If we simply ignore those parts that we cannot judge (until we have further information):-

Mars in 22 deg Pisces is pretty good in natal chart (do remember that with further info from those parts, this might change!).

Mars is in trip + term + face rulership, 3 smaller dignities which makes it function well in the mainstream world. Mars being a lesser malefic still gives problem but with its position in three smaller dignities makes it happier and happier malefics give less problems...It is certainly better for nocturnal charts as Mars is a nocturnal planet and even better if Mars is opposite the hemisphere of the sun which makes him in sect (and in sect planets are stronger in a sense that they are in an environment which supports them)

But, the nature is in conflict with the sign which is an important consideration in decumbiture or horary chart about sickness...though the there is balance as the heat and dryness of Mars is countered by the coldness and humidity of Pisces. In looking at malefics, we do want the malefic's nature to be counter-balanced whereas in looking at benefics, we want enhancements...
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,

Mars in 2 Leo:

Positive:
1. Planetary gender is in agreement with sign gender (Mars is masculine and so is Leo)
2. Planetary nature agrees with sign nature (but see below)

Negative:
1. Mars is the lesser malefic
2. Mars is not in any sign/degree that has any essential dignities hence peregrine
3. Planetary sect does not agree with the sect of the sign (Mars is nocturnal but Leo is diurnal)


What we connot judge w/o further information (but still important!):
1. Reception
2. House position (angular/succedent/cadent)
3. House rulership
4. Aspects from and to other planets
5. Sect, we need the info day/night birth
6. The state of its dispositor
6. Whether combust, retrograde, elevated, VOC
7. Purpose of chart - is it a birth chart, is it a horary/electional chart, is it a decumbiture chart, is it a mundane chart?

If we simply ignore those parts that we cannot judge (until we have further information):-

Mars (a lesser malefic) peregrine is not really good in a natal chart (though not really debilitated). It's peregrine - hence going everywhere yet nowhere, an outsider ia alien country - not very supportive

Although the nature of the planet and sign agree (both are hot + dry) but the excessive dryness of Mars (which according to Ptolemy is what makes him malefic) is being "enhanced" in the dry sign (and also barren sign) of Leo. As has been mentioned in a previous post, we wouldn't want to enhance the nature of a malefic.

All in all not so good!
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zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much, astrojin! Smile

I speculate about a birth chart with Mars in 27 deg Pisces, Sun is in 22 deg Pisces, both in first house, Juputer is in partile conjunction with Saturn in Libra. Meanwhile Mars is in its own term /Egyptian/ or in the term of Saturn /Ptolemy/. If the term is saturnian, is it convenient to Mars as it is exalted in the saturnian sign Capricorn?


Last edited by zuli on Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,


Quote:
If the term is saturnian, is it convenient to Mars as it is exalted in the saturnian sign Capricorn?


Now, this is tricky! Mars in Capricorn (the sign of Saturn) is good simply because Mars is exalted but remember though that both Mars and Saturn are both malefics (hence is in their nature to give problems to the native!). This is like a person who joins the military (Mars) where he has to go through discipline (Capricorn), under constant rules & regulations (Capricorn) and through hardship (malefics) but at the end of the day become head/general over a legion of armies (or whatever) etc. (due to the exalted state of Mars).

According to Bonatti, when a planet is in its own term, the planet is like a person amongst his kith and kin (which is supportive to the native).

But when a planet is in the term of another planet, we will have to see the term ruler itself. For example if Mars is in the term of Saturn, we have to say that this is not very good because Mars has to operate under the "terms" dictated by Saturn (which is a greater malefic) and Saturn is not going to make Mars' life easy! This is even worse if the term ruler of Mars (in this case Saturn) is in aversion (i.e. not aspecting) Mars. If Mars is in the terms of a benefic, then you have benefics dictating "terms" on Mars and this would certainly be easier for Mars.

If we extrapolate what Bonatti said, we have Saturn as kith and kin of Mars and do you really want a malefic as your kith and kin? Only when the malefic exercises his maleficence to others and not to you!

This is also why many classical astrologers do not like to see planets near the end of zodiacal signs because degrees near the end of signs are mostly in the terms of malefics (Mars or Saturn).

So, Mars in the term of Saturn is not really good although Mars is exalted in one of the sign Saturn rules (Capricorn) - unless of course Mars is in Capricorn itself!!!
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice exercise zuli and astrojin. Since coming to horary, it's been painfully aware to me I've missed the essense of the planets and signs. Your discussion gave me the idea to make cards with planets, signs and degrees, then randomly select a grouping to answer the question "Which planet is stronger?" Then using the steps you outlined, astrojin, to build the essence of that planet. Then add house cards, etc.

I've been looking for a way to make learning the basics interesting and thorough.

Please tell me, do 'real' astrologers truly memorize all those terms? :-)

kali

any suggestions are welcome
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zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Please tell me, do 'real' astrologers truly memorize all those terms? :-)


I think a lot of them know the sequence, but not the exact degrees.
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its very difficult to make a reply on which is better in those degrees simply because you didnt consider also the accidents and debilities of the position of Mars in the chart. These are also very important to construct which is more beneficial. For if its conjunct (and Combust) to the Sun, its indefinately worse then many other lesser evils inflicted on it. Also you didnt consider the degrees as well, 22 Pisces is deemed as "light" and therefore add positivity to it. 2 Leo is a degree augmenting fortune, which is one of the most benefic degrees for a Planet to be in, especially if its in the angles. There are many considerations you need to take when analyzing positions and I dont believe its possible to sit here and analyze only a Planet and 2 degrees. You need to see the whole picture and make a judgment.

Edit: You also should consider what Fixed stars its conjunct with, are the fixed stars of that Planets nature?

Astro.Teacher
http://antiquus.prophp.org
Antiquus Astrologia
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astro-teacher, reread your analyzing of Mars here. You sifted through much relevant material to make 'a' judgement of much significance BEFORE considering the information you are missing to make a full judgement.

Being new to using tripilicity, terms, decans, sects, nature, and such, your little demonstration showed me a way to break it down into small pieces and build from there. Very quickly I'm seeing basic info recalled at once. Also I'm seeing the development of sequence. First I'll look to rulership then exalt/detri the the triplicities....ect. Oganization is soooo important in this work. On top of that new info is coming in such as being aware of moon waxing or waning, how different degrees change a Planets essence (as you point out again with 2' Leo). Seeing things in a whole different way than I'm use to using in astrology. This is all stuff I need to know even before the other considerations, no?

My thought is to become comfortable working with all this info then go the next step and make cards of the houses and the aspects. I'm not sure how all that will work. It exciting to see the first step of my game coming together so nicely and it's fun. Smile

I agree with you it's difficult to judge which is better but you still can make comparisons and learn alot!

kali
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Astro-teacher, reread your analyzing of Mars here. You sifted through much relevant material to make 'a' judgement of much significance BEFORE considering the information you are missing to make a full judgement.


I purposefully skipped over the other singifications because they had been covered by other members in their replies, I was just adding that what I stated were also important pieces to look at when analyzing the chart. Sorry for the confusion. Smile

Astro.Teacher
http://antiquus.prophp.org
Antiquus Astrologia
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhh, this must have been brought over from another thread. I didn't know. Nice job on the analysis, I got alot from it!

kali
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