House of death

1
Hi
traditionally the 8th is the house of death.Yet the 12th being the last house, could also lay claim to ruling death.
As i mentioned in another thread 2 cousins of mine lost 2 siblings when they were in the prime of life.
Both have the 3rd lord in 12th in WSH system.

Furthermore, my 3rd lord is the Sun in 8th. My only sibling is alive at 52.
The IC is in 3rd too, mother is 81 since yesterday. I received a small inheritance when Jupiter was conjunct Sun in 1996, still, lords of 6,12 ,5,and 11 are conjunct Sun there
My dad passed away with breast cancer when I was 21 which fits with Sun there, but note that the Sun is in sect and has no evil aspects.
And I still fail to see the link with 3rd house- siblings, comunication, writing,documents.
Do you know celebrities with lord of 3 in 8 I can compare with?

Thanks

Re: House of death

2
jorge wrote:Hi
traditionally the 8th is the house of death.Yet the 12th being the last house, could also lay claim to ruling death.
As i mentioned in another thread 2 cousins of mine lost 2 siblings when they were in the prime of life.
Both have the 3rd lord in 12th in WSH system.

Furthermore, my 3rd lord is the Sun in 8th. My only sibling is alive at 52.
The IC is in 3rd too, mother is 81 since yesterday. I received a small inheritance when Jupiter was conjunct Sun in 1996, still, lords of 6,12 ,5,and 11 are conjunct Sun there
My dad passed away with breast cancer when I was 21 which fits with Sun there, but note that the Sun is in sect and has no evil aspects.
And I still fail to see the link with 3rd house- siblings, comunication, writing,documents.
Do you know celebrities with lord of 3 in 8 I can compare with?

Thanks
What has Lord 3 in the 12th got to do with death though? Why Lord 3? Why not Lord 2? Or 5?

The 8th rules the beginning of death for observational reasons pertaining to the sun's descent toward setting (see Deb Houlding's "The Houses: Temples of the Sky" for more details).

Other houses which may lay claim to death might be the 7th and 4th.

At the 12th, the sun has just risen in all its glory. This is hardly a great analogy of death.

Re: House of death

3
Paul wrote:
jorge wrote:Hi traditionally the 8th is the house of death.Yet the 12th being the last house, could also lay claim to ruling death. As i mentioned in another thread 2 cousins of mine lost 2 siblings when they were in the prime of life. Both have the 3rd lord in 12th in WSH system. Furthermore, my 3rd lord is the Sun in 8th. My only sibling is alive at 52. The IC is in 3rd too, mother is 81 since yesterday. I received a small inheritance when Jupiter was conjunct Sun in 1996, still, lords of 6,12 ,5,and 11 are conjunct Sun there My dad passed away with breast cancer when I was 21 which fits with Sun there, but note that the Sun is in sect and has no evil aspects. And I still fail to see the link with 3rd house- siblings, comunication, writing,documents. Do you know celebrities with lord of 3 in 8 I can compare with? Thanks
What has Lord 3 in the 12th got to do with death though? Why Lord 3? Why not Lord 2? Or 5? The 8th rules the beginning of death for observational reasons pertaining to the sun's descent toward setting (see Deb Houlding's "The Houses: Temples of the Sky" for more details). Other houses which may lay claim to death might be the 7th and 4th. At the 12th, the sun has just risen in all its glory. This is hardly a great analogy of death.
Yes I heard comments that in the past 7th was the house of death when Sun had just set. Wonder why they switched to 8th later?
But I use empirical data not just theory

Re: House of death

4
jorge wrote: But I use empirical data not just theory
An interesting approach. What degree of empiricism do you demand of yourself? For example do you maintain that Aries is a fire sign ruled by Mars. If so what empirical data demonstrates that Aries isn't a wood sign or a water sign, and why Mars and not Ceres is empirically the ruler?

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Paul wrote:
An interesting approach. What degree of empiricism do you demand of yourself? For example do you maintain that Aries is a fire sign ruled by Mars. If so what empirical data demonstrates that Aries isn't a wood sign or a water sign, and why Mars and not Ceres is empirically the ruler?
To Jorge,

And what empirical data tells you that the sign Aries is even significant and effective at all as an influence? My bet is that you've simply accepted Aries and the other signs merely on faith as a given factor in astrology. Just like everyone else. You didn't need empirical data. Just belief. Something about astrology appealed to you and drew you toward it, and you entered into it in a state of acceptance. Just like the rest of us.


When it comes to death I've noticed goings-on with houses 4 and 7. They also make more complete sense symbolically. The 12th - not directly. Perhaps some sort of indirect signification.

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Kirk wrote:Paul wrote:
An interesting approach. What degree of empiricism do you demand of yourself? For example do you maintain that Aries is a fire sign ruled by Mars. If so what empirical data demonstrates that Aries isn't a wood sign or a water sign, and why Mars and not Ceres is empirically the ruler?
To Jorge,

And what empirical data tells you that the sign Aries is even significant and effective at all as an influence? My bet is that you've simply accepted Aries and the other signs merely on faith as a given factor in astrology. Just like everyone else. You didn't need empirical data. Just belief. Something about astrology appealed to you and drew you toward it, and you entered into it in a state of acceptance. Just like the rest of us.


When it comes to death I've noticed goings-on with houses 4 and 7. They also make more complete sense symbolically. The 12th - not directly. Perhaps some sort of indirect signification.
All we can do is test the claims made since Ptolemy right?
As for the 4th house,its supposed to be the last part of life according to tradition
Ever visited www.rudolfhsmit.nl
?

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jorge wrote: All we can do is test the claims made since Ptolemy right?
As for the 4th house,its supposed to be the last part of life according to tradition
Which claims and what tests have you performed against those claims? Why focus on 'since' Ptolemy? Why not include Ptolemy himself and also earlier authors?

In what sense have you tested death and what are Ptolemy's claims regarding death in the context of this discussion regarding Lord 3 being found in the 12th?

Bearing in mind that all people die, what significance is there for Lord 3 being natally in the 12th. I can guarantee you that all persons with Lord 3 natally in every single other house will also die. Similarly all people who have siblings they have seen die will have Lord 3 somewhere - not necessarily the 12th house. Are these the tests you've done?
Ever visited www.rudolfhsmit.nl
Yes. I found a great deal of it to be poorly written and the design of the site rankles me (I'm a web designer).

8
Paul wrote:
jorge wrote: All we can do is test the claims made since Ptolemy right? As for the 4th house,its supposed to be the last part of life according to tradition
Which claims and what tests have you performed against those claims? Why focus on 'since' Ptolemy? Why not include Ptolemy himself and also earlier authors? In what sense have you tested death and what are Ptolemy's claims regarding death in the context of this discussion regarding Lord 3 being found in the 12th? Bearing in mind that all people die, what significance is there for Lord 3 being natally in the 12th. I can guarantee you that all persons with Lord 3 natally in every single other house will also die. Similarly all people who have siblings they have seen die will have Lord 3 somewhere - not necessarily the 12th house. Are these the tests you've done?
Ever visited www.rudolfhsmit.nl
Yes. I found a great deal of it to be poorly written and the design of the site rankles me (I'm a web designer).
I havent done tests cause they require a lot of data. People die but as a rule not so young. I have sun in 8,my dad died when i was 21.Thats more significant than dying when im 35 or 45. But two brothers i know have sun in 8 in WSH and their father is still alive at 72.
What i do is verify the planets position when i just had a conflict,this is easier. As a rule Moon or Mars are in bad aspect with my Sun or mars

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jorge wrote: I havent done tests cause they require a lot of data.
Okay, but wasn't doing empirical tests your reason for moving away from the traditional model?
People die but as a rule not so young. I have sun in 8,my dad died when i was 21.Thats more significant than dying when im 35 or 45.
I am 27 next month. I have sun, mars and mercury in the 8th. My dad is still alive and well.
Do you have any brothers or sisters? Where is their sun?

I think it's clear that nobody has suggested that the Sun in the 8th indicates early death for the father. If you yourself contend that there are many examples to the contrary, why exactly are we discussing it in that context?

10
Death requires more than a single placement or astrological event or I would have been dead a long time by now and so would anyone else with a planet in the 8th. I recently saw a chart, and I wish I could recall whose, I think it was a celebrity, who had the ASC ruler in the 8th, a recurrent theme in premature deaths, and the native died in his late 80s or early 90s.

The death of siblings would be 10th house, 8th of the 10th. The 12th is the native's house, not his siblings. The second is the 12th of the 3rd. The 12th is the house of sorrows and there may be an astrological connection between the death of the siblings and the resulting sorrow felt by the natives.

The more I look at charts and how they manifest in the life, the more I think we need a piling up of testimonies to make a sensible prediction (of anything) even with hindsight. So having Lord 1 in 8 just is not enough to claim premature death or lord 3 in 12. That we see it often in charts is an indication that it is a red flag, not a certainty.

To see how these multiple testimonies work, I suggest reading either Worsdale or Morin or ideally both. Morin's book on solar returns demonstrates relentless bearing down on the native by the planets for good or for ill. Worsdale does this with a variety of techniques. When several pile up on the native, things happen.

11
Tom wrote:Death requires more than a single placement or astrological event or I would have been dead a long time by now and so would anyone else with a planet in the 8th. I recently saw a chart, and I wish I could recall whose, I think it was a celebrity, who had the ASC ruler in the 8th, a recurrent theme in premature deaths, and the native died in his late 80s or early 90s.

The death of siblings would be 10th house, 8th of the 10th. The 12th is the native's house, not his siblings. The second is the 12th of the 3rd. The 12th is the house of sorrows and there may be an astrological connection between the death of the siblings and the resulting sorrow felt by the natives.

The more I look at charts and how they manifest in the life, the more I think we need a piling up of testimonies to make a sensible prediction (of anything) even with hindsight. So having Lord 1 in 8 just is not enough to claim premature death or lord 3 in 12. That we see it often in charts is an indication that it is a red flag, not a certainty.

To see how these multiple testimonies work, I suggest reading either Worsdale or Morin or ideally both. Morin's book on solar returns demonstrates relentless bearing down on the native by the planets for good or for ill. Worsdale does this with a variety of techniques. When several pile up on the native, things happen.

I fully agree. The most I study the most I get aware that not only death prediction but predictions of all kind are very tricky and demand a full knowledge of theories and techniques that are very comprehensive and needing a high astrological maturity. I like to study death because it is an indisputable accident in life, no subject of any controversies. But any prediction need the same depth approach: at first a full delineation and after that the attention to firdars, profections, solar revolutions (the most timely technique) and of course directions. Any topic is only able to happen in the native?s life if all of these techniques pointed in a certain direction saying that something important will happen in a given year relating to some or other significator.
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

12
I was wandering if the 7th gave its place as the death place to the 8th when the octopus kind of chart changed for a twelve fold places. But this is only a guess.

Besides that the 7th continues to be a controversial house in terms of good and bad: partnership and enemies.
The meaning of certain houses is somewhat an ambiguous issue.
http://www.astrologiahumana.com