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Lilly's Considerations
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Primary Directions
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1731
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for that heads up margherita! good to know...

i finally finished reading this 16 page thread and got to your post and realized it was the end of the thread...

thanks for conversation, especially martin, eddy, ed and curtis.. really interesting and i see i have another one to read that eddy started on page 14 or 15 too..
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Michaelb



Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 67

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
To Mr Martin G. many thanks for replying to my post, appreciate your time.

Michaelb wrote:
How are these aspects announced?
Martin G replied:
The answer depends on how old-school you are. As we are in the Traditional forum, I'll give the traditional version: directions are always read as if the significator (the planet or point signifying the area under investigation) is moving, whether or not that is the case astronomically. (In direct directions, it is not the case.) So, taking Mars as your significator (for brothers, etc), you say 'Mars to the sextile of Saturn'; and so forth END

Is there another version different from Traditional?? I guess I am more interested in the old school, like they say, get it from the horses mouth first, like that found in Mr Wolfgangs post on first page of this topic, quoting Mr. Kolev.

By reading significator as the one moving such as your example above, Mars (significator) to Sxt of Saturn, isn´t there a risk to read aspect backwards ?? that the passive one, Significator appears to be the active one?? that Mars is presenting issues for Saturn to deal with when it is the other way around???

One can wonder if the Old Sages gave us such -backward- terminology hoping to confuse potential infiltrators?

Margherita, Hi. Your example is referring to Martins last paragraph to me, correct ?? where he writes: The modern variety is based on inverting the primary motion, which was never done traditionally.END

Thus Moon moved up to 15 Sag is not in the primary motion, but zodiacal and we would continue to call this a primary direction?? Michaelb
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1305
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michaelb wrote:

Margherita, Hi. Your example is referring to Martins last paragraph to me, correct ?? where he writes: The modern variety is based on inverting the primary motion, which was never done traditionally.END

Thus Moon moved up to 15 Sag is not in the primary motion, but zodiacal and we would continue to call this a primary direction?? Michaelb



no, I'm not.

Rather to Martin's sentence:

Quote:
The answer depends on how old-school you are. As we are in the Traditional forum, I'll give the traditional version: directions are always read as if the significator (the planet or point signifying the area under investigation) is moving, whether or not that is the case astronomically. (In direct directions, it is not the case.) So, taking Mars as your significator (for brothers, etc), you say 'Mars to the sextile of Saturn'; and so forth.


It's the trine of Mars which is moving, but it is showed as the Moon moves and applies by trine to Mars...

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michaelb wrote:
Is there another version different from Traditional??

There are astrologers using primary directions in ways unknown before the 20th century, definitely.

Quote:
By reading significator as the one moving such as your example above, Mars (significator) to Sxt of Saturn, isn´t there a risk to read aspect backwards ?? that the passive one, Significator appears to be the active one?? that Mars is presenting issues for Saturn to deal with when it is the other way around???

The idea is to picture the significator of any topic wandering around the horoscope and see what it meets on its way. Seen in that light, the terminology isn't that backward (although you are not the first to think it so: al-Biruni said much the same, a millennium ago). But although the significator is 'moved' symbolically, it is passive in the sense that it is acted upon by the conjunctions and aspects of the other planets.

An example: suppose the natal Sun is in the 10th house while the trine of Jupiter falls in the 11th house and the square of Mars in the 9th house. The Sun in the 10th will almost certainly be hyleg, so we can take it as a significator of the general state of the native's life. Directing the Sun by direct motion to the trine of Jupiter signifies help and benefits from friends, probably financial gain and possibly attainment of high office or honours. Directing the Sun by converse motion to the square of Mars indicates harm, perhaps even danger to life, especially during travel. In both cases the Sun is the one being acted on, despite that in the first case it is treated as the astronomically fixed point, while in the second case it is treated as the moving point. So whether or not a point is 'really' moved with the primary motion does not determine its active or passive role.
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Michaelb



Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 67

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
To Ms Margherita, Hi, thank you for your reply and clearing up any confusion I had when I saw Moon position in example chart you posted. I just had to make sure what I saw was not what I thought it was it, if that makes sense, smile smile.

To Mr Martin G who wrote: So whether or not a point is 'really' moved with the primary motion does not determine its active or passive role.END

My choice of Passive is perhaps incorrect word leaning more toward inactivity. Changed to the, one *Giving an audience* to the one *Announced* perhaps opens the door for one to see the give n take every aspect contact experiences fitting better with your comments in previous post. Many thanks Martin.
Margherita, Martin, many thanks for your comments appreciate very much your time. Michaelb
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Michaelb



Joined: 21 Apr 2011
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi To All
A few questions about Primary’s and various programs commercial and otherwise that provide PDs. First to Morinus. It list aspects for 100 years. Are there plans to extend this so that we may try out PDs on mundane maps such as the U.S. Chart now nearing 236 years.

What are pros n cons using PDs for such a chart? We don't have problem using Secondary Directed Asc MC for such a chart so why not PDs?

Another great feature with Mornius, it not only list month date and year but also hour minute and seconds for each aspect. I am aware of arguments about MC Asc movement and timing of chart that can move aspects not only by days or months but even years with slightest adjustment to natal birth time.

With Morinus I draw up a timed chart for any aspect and these charts are proving more than a little interesting describing the aspect. As is, with most programs that I found on Web, they only give MMDDYY. Why not let us decide by giving option to include Hour Minute Second for each aspect? Does Solar Fire list hour minute second for PD aspects?

Also re Solar Fire I am a bit confused, does it only do en mundo aspects or like Morinus allows for zodiacal aspects to, such as option, aspects of Promissors to Significators? Does Solar Fire also have limit on number of years like Morinus, 100 years?

I am thinking about presenting various Obama PD aspect charts drawn for the hour minute second. But I do not want to put that posting in this topic as I feel it would only clutter this topic.

Q should I put an Obama PD Topic in this section or perhaps better in mundane section? If time allows I have few other charts for Syria that no doubt would fit in Mundane section. Please let me know where I should put Obama topic and I would appreciate any info to what else I wrote above. Michaelb
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Q should I put an Obama PD Topic in this section or perhaps better in mundane section?


Although you would be using a traditional technique, I would prefer that something to do with a current or upcoming Presidential election be posted in the mundane section. It seems the topic would be more appropriate there.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should clarify the above. A discussion of primary directions and the use of a Barak Obama's chart as an example within that discussion would be perfectly appropriate in the traditional section. However a topic of Barak Obama, or of any candidate and the upcoming election, that uses primary directions is not what we do in the traditional forum. The difference is in the thrust of the thread. The election belongs in the mundane section. Primary directions belong here.
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