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Primary Directions
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 660
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed F wrote:
If the former, why aren't we using topocentric apparent positions with guesses as to the effect of refraction? If the latter, why aren't we using topocentric true positions (without the light-time correction)? Instead we astrologers generally use barycentric apparent positions, as though we are observing from a point ~4000 miles beneath the earth's surface and make up a rather weak rationale as to how the determination of the zodiacal degree of the ascendant localizes these coordinates.


This has been one of my concerns as well. I came from a background in astronomy which came first and I just assumed that charts were always based upon topocentric coordinates (though I didn't know what the word topocentric meant back then - I just assumed that a chart should be based upon where you were actually born, not in the center of the earths core) until sometime in the 80's and then I realized that doing lunar returns that a difference of 1 or even 2 signs skip on the horizon is possible depending upon whether you are using topocentric or geocentric coordinates. Back in the early 70's I used to use Sky and Telescope to place planets in approx position because I really didn't have access to much else at the time and as a child I was unaware of astrological ephemerides. Alex Harvey did have what seemed like a possible explanation for favoring geocentric (but I forgot what that is at the moment).
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should say Axel not Alex above.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed F wrote:
A bit of a rhetorically put question IMO. Note that I mentioned to Eddy that we were starting to get off topic for the forum by taking a "modern" standpoint. While I have an interest in traditional methods, I am by no means a traditional astrologer.

It wasn't meant as rhetoric, nor as an accusation. I apologize if you took offence (as suggested by your liberal use of adjectives like 'clumsy', 'misguided', 'immature', etc).

I will just say that I have dealt briefly with all the substantive points you bring up in my Primary Directions book; some of them were also discussed by writers of earlier centuries. However, they have not made me want radically to reformulate astrology. Perhaps our minds just work differently. In any case, one point on which we do agree is that such reforming efforts do not belong in this particular forum.
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Petr



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 71
Location: Czech Republic

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a practical perspective, the important results.They show which way is correct. Zodiacal direkce without latitude gives very good results. Orbis direction narrows the use of the topocentric system. We approach the more ancient astrological perspective.
Legality of the use of direct and conversion primary direction shows in practice. I understand the academic debate, but for the program are important results. Primary direkce under Ptolemy give adequate results.
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Perhaps our minds just work differently. In any case, one point on which we do agree is that such reforming efforts do not belong in this particular forum.


Gassho!
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I felt I needed to apply modern mathematical views to clarify things, the traditional purpose of this thread might get into the background. I therefore moved the content of this post to a new thread in the ‘Nativities and General Astrology’ board:
Mathematical reference frames in astrology
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I formally released the primary directions in Delphic Oracle. It was necessary to release early because there was a change to the Olson time zone database regarding Mercer county in North Dakota.

I just grayed out the features that are not yet finished (such as printing), but you can play with the data and cross reference transits and progressions by clicking on the direction column labeled M/Z (Mundane/Zodiacal)... Just click on the column headers to sort according to the contents of that column.

The options for the different direction types can be found in the Time Lords system settings (press F5) on the Primary Directions Tab.

You can set you own themes grouping all of your settings under a single name on the Themes sub tab. It takes all your options set on the adjacent tab and saves them all under a name you specify. Just double click and the settings for that theme will re-appear so you don't have to manually go back and forth checking check boxes every time you want to try a different group of settings.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finished the print and acrobat file generation routines and fixed a small bug that added oppositions to the list of directions when the opposition checkbox was not checked. The new version also saves header widths when the window is closed or hidden so you can resize the headers by clicking and dragging... You can click the header to sort according to the contents of that header. Log in to the Delphic Oracle upgrade page below:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/upgrades.html

I should note that some may find the symbols used in the list a bit strange. You might see a conjunction glyph followed by an opposition glyph in the promissor list for instance. The conjunction glyph is what I used for the prenatal syzygy. Also the MC glyph looks very much like the Moon glyph. You can change the glyphs used in the program by pressing F2 and going to the glyphs tab, you can select which glyph (of 256) available you want to use for all display objects.
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there any traditional examples of actual primary driection data - i.e. a specific chart and then showing dates for the directions themselves?

I know of some in Lilly, but I can't think of other examples for some reason.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not exactly sure of the nature of your question, but if you're looking for specific charts with this data, Morin goes into several in Book 22 of Astrologia Gallica. John Worsdale (1766 - 1828), listed them with other techniques when discussing specific charts in his book Celestial Philosophy published the year of his death. Worsdale would calculate progressions directions, parallels, transits etc and then list them in the chronological order of occurrence. Then he would look for groupings of events to make predictions. He made great use of primary directions. Kessinger offers a reprint of his book. The Ascella reprint may be difficult to find.

Tom
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I'm not exactly sure of the nature of your question, but if you're looking for specific charts with this data, Morin goes into several in Book 22 of Astrologia Gallica. John Worsdale (1766 - 1828), listed them with other techniques when discussing specific charts in his book Celestial Philosophy published the year of his death. Worsdale would calculate progressions directions, parallels, transits etc and then list them in the chronological order of occurrence. Then he would look for groupings of events to make predictions. He made great use of primary directions. Kessinger offers a reprint of his book. The Ascella reprint may be difficult to find.

Tom


That's what I'm talking about: showing a chart and then listing various hit dates through primary directions.

I wanted to have some actual examples to test with.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wanted to have some actual examples to test with.


Then I suggest Worsdale's Celestial Philosophy. I looked it over again last night. He gives a table of directions for each chart. Mostly he uses primary directions and they are in zodiac, in mundo, direct and converse. In other words he covers all bases. He also uses rapt parallels, as well as secondary progressions and transits. He determines the date of perfection then lists everything in chronological order.

In the text he goes into detail as to why he made the judgment he did, and almost every chart deals with death, near death, violent death and a few diseases tossed in here and there. His language can be bit arcane at times, but he isn't too difficult to figure out.

Two things you should be aware of:

1) He uses local apparent time, not LMT. Using the time he gives and the location, usually Lincoln UK, with LAT will give positions and house cusps very close to what he published.

2) He does not determine the part of fortune in the usual way. He claims he uses Ptolemy's method. We discussed it here a year or two ago and I'm not sure we ever really determined how he did it even with his explanation. Rumen Kolev's Placidus program can calculate the POF that way.He is a highly technical astrologer.

Despite his haughtiness or what appears to me as his haughtiness, Worsdale was a first rate astrologer and is worth the effort it takes to get through him.

One caveat. In the introduction he informs the reader that the tables in the book are most accurate and the student can follow along without obtaining any other text. The reproductions by Ascella and Kessinger, do not contain the tables. You'll be on your own there.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?field-publisher=Kessinger+Publishing&search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&tag=kessingerpubl-20&tag_value=kessingerpubl-20&field-keywords=John+Worsdale&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=0&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=0

Good luck

Tom
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Michaelb



Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 67

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
A few beginner questions regarding Primary Directions. An example chart run on Morinus 5.1 is used for questions below.
June 17, 1943 03.00 or 3 AM EWT Eastern War Time zone +4 Harrisburg PA 40n16 76w53 Should give Asc 7Ta15 59, MC 21Cp04 13 Finally the terms bounds are Egyptian or should be.

[/img]

The Primary Directions set up on Morinus is, GOTO Options, select Primary Directions. At top right, under Significators select, As Mc and all the old seven planets. Aspects, the major five. Promissors, the old seven only, noting more. At top left select, Placidus semiarc. Below that select Zodiacal. Use of latitude select, Neither. Under zodiacal options select, Aspects of Promissors to Significators, OK, exit. Under Tables select Primary Directions. Under Age select, 0-25 then select, Direct. From table below at far left I number each aspect line as 1, 2 etc for easy reference hoping I make no typos.

Section 1

A short table from Mornius using above options should look like this:
........Prom.......D/C......Sig.....Arc.....Date.....
1......Sxt Sat......D.......Mar....1.239... 1944.09.18
2......Tri Moo......D.......Ven....2.004....1945.06.28
3......Sqr Ven......D.......Asc....2.025....1945.07.06
4......Tri Mar......D.......Moo....2.948....1946.06.14
5......Sqr MC.......D.......Mar....3.731....1947.03.31

How are these aspects announced?

Line 1 Saturn by primary motion at 17Ge15 is moved up to approximately 15+Gemini to form the Sextile of or to Mars.
1a) Reading program table above at line 1 do we say Saturn to sextile of Mars?
If answer is No, please explain and or give correct terminology.

1b) If 1a is yes, then are all planets on left in table read and/or announced the same way, Such as line 2 we would announce the Moon to trine of Venus.

1c) If 1a and 1b are correct or answer Yes, then is it correct to say the planets on the left - the Promissors - take their matters to planet on the right - the Significators - to deal with. Such as line 1 Saturn arrives at the door of Mars, now Mars must deal with Saturns presence. Saturns presence begins to affect areas ruled by Mars, is that correct?

1d) Line 5 Sqr MC D Mars
Would that be a valid aspect since the angles have no rays ?? that if 1b is correct this would be read announced as Mc to the Square of Mars. In this example it has to be 21 Ar moved up to Mars at 15+ Aries.

Looking at the planetary positions it appears the one on the left is moved to its right or in clockwise motion or against the order of the signs. Below, Section 2 it appears to be the opposite.

Section 2
In section 2 there is one change to be made at Tables, select Primary Directions now select, Converse. This gives following aspect table.

........Prom.......D/C......Sig.....Arc.....Date.....
1......Tri Moo......C.......Mar....1.894... 1945.05.19
2......Sxt Mar......C.......Sat....1.959....1945.06.12
3......Tri Ven......C.......Moo....2.102....1945.08.04
4......Sqr Asc......C.......Ven....2.812....1946.04.24
5......Tri Ven......C.......Mar....3.258....1946.10.06

How are these aspects read, who, Prom or Sig takes their matters to who or see 1c)

Line 1 Moon trine Mars. This aspect appears to move in zodiacal order, or Moon moving from 12 Sag up to the 15 Sag to make trine to Mars. But in fact ?? the 15 degrees in Aries is now placed at 15 Sag and then 15 Sag is moved down to the Moon at 12 Sag. If what I just wrote is correct how are these apsects pronounced, Moon to trine of Mars or the reverse??? Would it be correct to say the Aspect trine of Mars 15Ar is directed to Moon 12Sag ?? so Mars because he or his aspect is the one moved is presenting issues for Moon to deal with ?? Thank You, Michaelb
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michaelb wrote:
How are these aspects announced?

Ah! An excellent question. Very Happy The answer depends on how old-school you are. As we are in the Traditional forum, I'll give the traditional version: directions are always read as if the significator (the planet or point signifying the area under investigation) is moving, whether or not that is the case astronomically. (In direct directions, it is not the case.) So, taking Mars as your significator (for brothers, etc), you say 'Mars to the sextile of Saturn'; and so forth.

Quote:
Saturns presence begins to affect areas ruled by Mars, is that correct?

When Mars is the significator, yes.

Quote:
1d) Line 5 Sqr MC D Mars
Would that be a valid aspect since the angles have no rays ??

No, it would not. Well spotted.

Quote:
Looking at the planetary positions it appears the one on the left is moved to its right or in clockwise motion or against the order of the signs. Below, Section 2 it appears to be the opposite.

Correct, although traditionally (as I said above) it is the significator which is 'moved' (symbolically) in the order of the signs (direct) or against that order (converse).

A word of caution: the so-called converse directions calculated by astrological software (including Morinus) are not the traditional converse directions used by everyone up to the 19th century. The modern variety is based on inverting the primary motion, which was never done traditionally.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michaelb wrote:


4......Tri Mar......D.......Moo....2.948....1946.06.14


Next version of Morinus will show primary directions in chart.
That's a screenshot from the test version.




The Moon is arrived (see Martin above) at 15 Sagittarius - outer wheel- and so she is applying to Mars at 15 Aries - inner wheel.

margherita
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